Response to New Poll by WELS Lay Student

WELS lay Student has left a new comment on your post "How does the true Church grow? New Poll.":

It is correct that the true church grows by the means of grace; however, there is something to be said about the delivery of the means of grace.

For example, let's say a vacation bible school teacher is going to give a devotion for a group of early primary grade children. The children, as most kids do, are running around in chaos. He simply starts reading the devotion, thinking in a "legalistic" only by means of grace mentality. He feels that they means of grace will calm them down and they will come to faith.

Ok, now I understand this is a scenario that goes against most people's common sense. However, I know it has happened. The point is that people do come to faith through the means of grace, but maximizing the conditions in which they are presented is common sense. Things like a large community "marketing"(for lack of a better word)and a more contemporary worship service can be applied in many cases to maximize the conditions.

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GJ - I posted this to show how Lutheran doctrine has degenerated. Obviously the wording or thinking has come from The Love Shack. If an idiotic idea is repeated often enough, others will agree with it and pass it on. I heard the same message from Frosty Bivens in John Seifert's driveway, about 20 years ago. He began by saying he went to Fuller Seminary and thought that their methods could be used to draw people to the church so the Means of Grace could be applied.

Bivens' comment and the one above show a lack of trust in the efficacy of God's Word, a complete trust in marketing.

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rlschultz has left a new comment on your post "Response to New Poll by WELS Lay Student":

The comment by WELS lay student is just another example of those "yeah, but" apologies for the CGM. Lutheran doctrine truly has degenerated.

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Phil Rehberger has left a new comment on your post "Response to New Poll by WELS Lay Student":

Isaiah 28:

5 In that day the LORD Almighty
will be a glorious crown,
a beautiful wreath
for the remnant of his people.

6 He will be a spirit of justice
to him who sits in judgment,
a source of strength
to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

7 And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
they stagger when seeing visions,
they stumble when rendering decisions.

8 All the tables are covered with vomit
and there is not a spot without filth.

9 "Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?

10 For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there."

11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,

12 to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"—
but they would not listen.

13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there—
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.

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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Response to New Poll by WELS Lay Student":

Greg, I can't believe you criticized this WELS lay student. If you personally would read a devotion for a bunch of kids, wouldn't you make them sit still first and pay attention? If you were teaching a catechism class, would you make sure your students were attentive, rather than scribbling doodles in their notebooks? That's all this person was trying to say. He (or she) then applies the argument to the broader ministry of the congregation--don't we want to have conditions as ideal as possible so people pay attention to the Word that's spoken to them so it makes it from the ear to the heart? Where are you coming from on this?

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GJ - Follow the Big BUT of False Doctrine, please. And I quote:

The point is that people do come to faith through the means of grace, BUT maximizing the conditions in which they are presented is common sense. Things like a large community "marketing"(for lack of a better word)and a more contemporary worship service can be applied in many cases to maximize the conditions.

Kelm, Bivens, Huenbern, Olson, Valleskey have perfected the Big BUT of False Doctrine. First the correct doctrine is affirmed (usually in a smart-alecky way...we all know that the Word is efficacious). Then the Big BUT of False Doctrine is used to repudiate orthodox doctrine and replace it with Reformed nonsense.

Maximizing conditions is typical Reformed talk. We have to make the Word attractive, relevant, harmonious with human reason. I really groan when I read another example of "not preaching in German to an English-speaking audience." If only they would preach in German...if only they knew German...if only they would preach instead of lashing people with synodical law.

If people receive the true Gospel, they will not need a cattle prod to witness to their faith. If the pastor believes in the efficacy of the Word, he will not hesitate to sow the seed with abandon. Fullerites cannot even get the Sower parable right.

What would I do with noisy, difficult kids? I would settle them down with the Law. "You are not being respectful toward the Word of God." I got one marriage-scared man to marry the mother of his three children that way.

Mass marketing is a flop, Anonymous. The only way it works is when creating a liberal pan-Protestant congregation with no confessions and be-bop Seeker Services on Sunday.