ICHABOD, THE GLORY HAS DEPARTED - explores the Age of Apostasy, predicted in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, to attack Objective Faithless Justification, Church Growth Clowns, and their ringmasters. The antidote to these poisons is trusting the efficacious Word in the Means of Grace. John 16:8. Isaiah 55:8ff. Romans 10. Most readers are WELS, LCMS, ELS, or ELCA. This blog also covers the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Left-wing, National Council of Churches denominations.
Start with this URL:
http://www.churchfromscratch.net/
Copy and paste it into your browser.
I will make it easier and link it from the words:
Church From Scratch
There is an automatic re-direct that takes the reader to
Joe's Rock and Roll Babtist-WELS Church:
Meet the Pastor
Pastor Matt Doebler has been our lead pastor at Christ the Rock since the Spring of 2006, when he moved to Round Rock with his wife and three kids: Maddie, Sam, and Caleb. His family is a constant source of support and encouragement to him through their areas of service, their examples, and their witness to the greatness of Jesus.
My Heart: Since I was born outside of Detroit, raised between Chicago and Milwaukee, and descended from generations of Chicago city folk, I have long had a heart for the urban and suburban areas of our country with all of their busyness, deep (often well-hidden) scars, and cultural diversity. I long for people who have heard little, if anything, about Jesus in these places to be transformed by His gospel power so that they can, in turn, take part in Jesus’ redemptive work in the cities.
On my iPod: Nickel Creek; David Crowder Band; U2; Third Day, and a lot of sermons
Favorite Food: Alaskan King Crab Legs
Favorite Movie:“The Empire Strikes Back” (along with all the original (not recent) Star Wars films)
Favorite Vacation Spot: San Antonio is right up at the top
Favorite Books:The Bible and The Lord of the Rings
Favorite Bible Verse: Psalm 73:23-26
23 Yet I am always with you;
you hold me by my right hand.
24 You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will take me into glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but you?
And earth has nothing I desire besides you.
26 My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart
and my portion forever.
NIV
And most anything by Asaph
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GJ - But you have to look for the WELS part. Like most Church and Change ministers, Matt hides his confessional identity as much as possible. He could be anything, but that's the point.
Anonymous [aka Joe Krohn] has left a new comment on your post "Hey Joe from CrossWalk, Laveen, Arizona":
Hi Gregory. Nice to be on a first name basis with you. You must have been hanging out out on the C&C webserve list; or we know some common folks since I lived in PHX. Cool.
[GJ - the Church and Change list stopped or went secretive once people realized how much false doctrine was being peddled. Spelling was another issue, but you probably realize that by now.]
You still haven't answered my question regarding GCU. Since you haven't addressed it, I will assume it is true. That is the legalistic way, right? How do you reconcile badgering your fellow believers over alleged Reformed doctrine, and yet teach for an institution that claims to be "Non-Denominational Christian"? I wonder how GCU would view your anti-reformed sentiments and un-christian behavior?
[GJ - I did answer your false accusation, which is strange coming from a Babtist church affiliated with WELS. I agree with Luther and the Book of Concord. I have academic freedom in both schools. The only badgering being done right now is by Church and Change Quislings.]
Before I sign off for the day, you'll need to do a little more research for me. Where in the Bible does it say that we have to use an organ and an organist to lead worship from page 5 and 15 of TLH? I couldn't find the verse or verses either where it says that guitars and drums are not allowed in worship.
[GJ - Where did I say that? You can do better than a straw man fallacy.]
God Bless your evening.
Joe [Krohn, former CrossWalk Laveen member, current Rock and Roll Church member]
You may do well to review 1 Cor. 13.
[GJ - So I can feel the love from Church and Change, from CrossWalk and Rock and Roll? Why do you think I call 2929 The Love Shack?]
Hi Joe. So you were a member of CrossWalk in Laveen (Phoenix)? And now you are a member of Doebler's Rock and Roll Church?
I suggest you look over the Church From Scratch material that I posted for your convenience. Your pastor is promoting all kinds of Baptist and non-Christian stuff. Sure, the website went down after I exposed it, but the content is preserved. Your pastor has fingerprints all over that website. So does Paul Kelm plus Church and Change.
You are in one wild WELS district. South Central should be called Southern Babtist Central. Who is minding the store down there?
I just heard that ex-SP Gurgel just landed there too. I thought he was still in a secure, undisclosed location. I suggest not giving up his address to any forensic accountants. They might have a lot of questions.
Another Cup of Joe
From
: "Joe Krohn"
To : church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Subject : [church_and_change] Recent threads regarding fellowship, evangelism etc...
Date : Thu, Feb 23, 2006 12:55 PM
Dear Redeemed and fellow Brothers and Sisters of the WELS,
This internet, what a blessing...and a curse.
I don't think anyone is talking about changing doctrine. I think we
all agree that there are different ways of doing ministry as long as
it is Biblical and I haven't read anything on these threads that was
un-Biblical. I see alot (sic) of 'iron sharpening iron' as a good friend
of mine likes to say. I think we all agree that in general we can
do a better job as a Synod since our growth has been stagnant. If
we can glean some sucessful (sic) strategies from other sources we
should. We may even convert some of these 'heretics'. But I think
this is the rub. I think some have trouble separating these methods
from their doctrine. Because it is their idea, somehow it is
intertwined with their doctrine. It's kind of like separating the
sin from the sinner. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but it works. Or
taking a secular song and changing the lyrics to make it sacred.
Some folks just can't separate the old relationship of the melody
with the old lyrics even though the new song is God pleasing.
(especially for someone who may never have heard the 'old' song.)
It's just a point of perspective. I hope this helps.
Blessings to you all,
Joe
And here is another one::
Hi Pastor Frey and list,
Our Elders group is reading "Radical Reformission" by Mark
Driscoll. I highly recommend it. Parts of it make me
uncomfortable, but at the same time are convicting. I don't think
it's enough for us to just preach the Gospel in it's (sic) truth and
purity. Please don't misconstrue that statement as it's not pointed
at you. But as a whole, we do need to develope (sic) relationships with
people. Even if it's building the kingdom one soul at a time.
Jesus did so much more while he was here than just orate the good
news. When I was attending adult instruction and got to the part
about living in the world and not of the world, we were told that we
should hang out with fellow believers and stay away from the
unbelievers. Does this not fly in the face of what Jesus modeled
when He was on the Earth? Evangelism is dirty work. I work with a
gay man. If I don't have a relationship with him, how does he see
Jesus?
Blessings to all as we look forward once again to Christ's coming.
Joe
In case you wonder, the Church From Scratch website link was taken over by Matt Doebler's Rock and Roll WELS Babtist Church. The URL below does not work, but if the links part is removed from the address, the URL redirects to Christ the Rock.
The Wisconsin Synod never stops plagiarizing from Fuller Seminary and Willow Creek. Their illiterate leaders have managed to insert Satan's nickname into another project. Scratch is an English nickname for Satan. And Jesus called Satan The Father of Lies. That is appropriate, coming from the Church Growth Movement.
Church from Scratch is the rib-tickling name of the WELS website.
Whose name is first to appear on the links page? Paul Kelm - he has written a paper on Christian freedom.
Here are some of the links listed:
General Ministry
http://www.wels.net/
The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
http://www.churchandchange.org/
A WELS organization committed to address ministry in contemporary culture. Hosts great conferences and provides ministry ideas on the website.
http://www.crosswalkinlaveen.org/
God is doing some really neat things in the area of small groups, large gatherings, etc, through Crosswalk Lutheran Ministries in Phoenix, AZ.
Messiah Church in Nampa, ID has a neat statement of faith. [GJ - Ichabodians will note that the neat statement of faith was originally written by that anti-CGM pariah, me. But they have tweaked it so that their added words fall harshly on the unwaxed ear. "In an age of materialism, we believe that real treasure comes from our raith in the Savior." Is raith the future pluperfect subjunctive of faith?]
http://www.crossroadschicago.org/aboutus.html
Progressive ministry in the heart of Chicago; also has a great statement of faith.
www.apostlessj.org/Church/MinistriesActivities/ASV.html
Excellent example of a vision for a church plant/daughter congregation.
http://www.marshillchurch.org/
This is Mars Hill Church in Seattle, WA. From a Calvinistic background. The preaching is excellent and very law/gospel oriented, speaking powerfully to the culture around them. Mark Driscoll is the senior pastor
http://www.xenos.org/
This is Xenos Christian Fellowship in Columbus, OH. From an evangelical background. A congregation of thousands made up entirely of house churches. Very good mindset material and studies. Great on leadership/eldership.
***
GJ - I attended a Sunday service at Xenos in Columbus. The minister got in the pulpit and talked about himself for 40 minutes before God or the Scriptures were mentioned. The proper verb is mentioned, because the talk had nothing to do with worship, the Christian faith, God, or anything spiritual. The audience cooed and fluttered during the minister's preening, egomaniacal monologue. Not surprisingly, the minister at Community of Joy (Phoenix) gave the same kind of talk with the same results. Willow Creek had a more somber audience but the same baloney. They all sound alike.
Notice the trend, which is just as prominent in the Church of the Lutheran Confession (sic). Apostate Lutherans covet non-Lutherans so passionately that they become anti-Lutheran in thought, word, and deed.
The authors of this bizarre website have bios that remind me of fingernails scratching a blackboard:
Matt Doebler
Matt has served as a parish pastor in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod for the last eight years. After graduating from Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in 1997, he was called to St. Peter's Evangelical Lutheran Church in Collins, WI where he served for four years. In 2001, he accepted a call to St. Paul's Evangelical Lutheran Church in Wisconsin Rapids, WI. In the spring of 2006, he accepted a call to assist in planting Christ the Rock Church in Round Rock, TX. He is the proud husband of Christine, a Pilates/fitness instructor who uses her contacts in the fitness world to make connections for Jesus. He is also the proud father of three great kids, Madeline, Samuel and Caleb. They are great assets to him in the ministries into which God has placed him. Matt has been trained as an equipper in the Christ Care program from Stephen Ministries. He and Chris have also participated in the Church Planters training from Acts 29 Network.
[GJ - Acts 29 is a unionistic group, which is seen as a threat to Southern Baptists. That makes sense, because WELS is a unionistic sect, known as a threat to Lutheran doctrine.]
Ken Knapp
Ken retired early from the paper/hydro industries to do more ministry. Historically, he's served in most of the offices of a local congregation. His greatest passion is for nurturing life-long discipleship, and thus he logically serves on the WELS Commission on Adult Discipleship (CAD). Ken envisions a church functioning in our culture with the passion and effectiveness of an "Acts 2" church. He is the author of the soon-to-be-released book, A Womb to Tomb Guide for Nurturing Faith in and through the Family through the CAD.
GJ - I can think of better, rhyming names for the newest apostasy book -
From Bailing Water:
Monday, October 27, 2008
Fundamental - non-fundamental
Freddy said...
Years ago, I read an essay by Dr. P.E. Kretzmann: Fundamental and Non-fundamental Doctrines — and Church Fellowship. In this article, Dr. Kretzmann quotes from Dr. C.P. Krauth regarding the "Course of Error in the Church." It was this quote that inspired me to find a copy of Krauth's Conservative Reformation and it's Theology, and read it (this was before CPH started reprinting it). This is the quote:
"When error is admitted into the Church, it will be found that the stages in its progress are always three. It begins by asking toleration. Its friends say to the majority: 'You need not be afraid of us; we are few and weak; let us alone, we shall not disturb the faith of others. The Church has her standards of doctrine; of course we shall never interfere with them; we only ask for ourselves to be spared interference with our private opinions.' Indulged in for this time, error goes on to assert equal rights. Truth and error are balancing forces. The Church shall do nothing which looks like deciding between them; that would be partiality. It is bigotry to assert any superior right for the truth. We are to agree to differ, and any favoring of the truth, because it is truth, is partisanship. What the friends of truth and error hold in common is fundamental. Anything on which they differ is ipso facto non-essential. Anybody who makes account of such a thing is a disturber of the peace of the Church. Truth and error are two coordinate powers, and the great secret of church-statesmanship is to preserve the balance between them. From this point error soon goes on to its natural end, which is to assert supremacy. Truth started with tolerating; it comes to be merely tolerated, and that only for a time. Error claims a preference for its judgments on all disputed points. It puts men into positions, not as at first in spite of their departure from the Church’s faith, but in consequence of it. Their repudiation is that they repudiate that faith, and position is given them to teach others to repudiate it, and to make them skillful in combating it. (p. 195 f.)."
This is wise insight from a man who witnessed the decline of Lutheranism first hand, who had the courage to publicly fight against the error which was causing it, and to work toward unity. His effort not only made him a celebrated figure of his time, but a largely credible one as well.
Making application to our own time, Rev. Paul Kelm and company were asking for toleration two decades ago, and, using much the same “gee, they're so full of evangelical zeal, and such good Christian men” reasoning displayed by “WELS Pastor,” they were granted it. Some in our midst are still asking for toleration. Strident agents of "change," such as "WELS Pastor," it seems, are long past asking for toleration, however. They are demanding equivalency. It's obvious they intend to run a parallel church before moving to Krauth's final step of asserting supremacy. This is, after all, the objective of “change.”
But, while Krauth was addressing doctrine, are we not, in our case, looking at Lutheran practice? Yes and no. We are rightly concerned with practice as it is a reflection of what we Confess, and we see evidence of doctrinal error in the practice of the C&C crowd. When those who confess doctrinal unity with us engage in practice that is confusing or offensive, we have every right to demand of them an explanation, and they have every obligation to render one. Drawing the C&C or CG crowd into explanation of their practice, more and more, it seems, exposes their divergence from us and their disregard for anything more then rhetorical unity. So, while we take our queue from confusing and offensive practices endorsed by the C&C church-growthers, our concern is Confessional integrity.
As I continue to read and study, I am growing convinced that earlier discussions on this point are correct: WELS is facing a Confessional crisis.
My thoughts,
Freddy Finkelstein
***
GJ - To be precise, WELS has been avoiding a Confessional crisis for 20 years. The continued existence of Church and Change, the position of Bruce Becker in the catbird seat, the call of Paul Kelm, and the 2009 Ed Stetzer invitation - all point to a Confessional dissolution.
If the pastors can grow a spine and the laity pitch in to help, the Word can be applied to defeat this cancer. Without the Word, human effort is worthless and pointless.
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "The Love That Dare Not Speak Its Name: Stealth Con...":
You're going to have to back up your claims with scripture, my friend. Have you done your biblical responsibility and contacted these folks in private before publicly humiliating them with your un-biblical divisive behavior?
Sincerely,
A member of CTR
jkrohn@keyovation.com
***
GJ - I am waiting for the Church and Change people to observe their new versions of Matthew 18 and the 8th Commandment. The false teachers can slander anyone they want and invent all kinds of stories. They do this behind everyone's back because they are cowards. But they demand that nothing about their wolf-ministry be discussed, even though they publish their errors and clamor to spend offering money on Baptists and New Age Methodists.
Here is Matthew 18 -
KJV Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
That applies to private sin, not published false doctrine. Christ the Rock is an Enthusiastic partner of Church and Change. Therefore, the congregation cannot hide behind Matthew 18.
A WELS pastor I know recently visited Rock and Roll, as they call this C and C outpost. He was sickened by what he saw. I publicly opposed this nonsense 15 years ago, but that was solo. Now the laity are catching on. The pastors are still too timid to do much.
Issues in WELS closed down its website. Church and Change has a new conference coming up. That tells outsiders all they need to know.
Anonymous said...
Bloomington Lutheran (WELS, Bloomington, MN) was knee-deep into Faith Inkubators. In fact, Rich Melheim gave a presentation one Sunday in ~2001 during the Adult Bible Study Hour. We later suffered through GIFT (Generations in Faith Together), the small group Sunday Bible study format that FINK advocated.
Sorry for the Greg Jackson impersonation, but I am a first-hand witness.
ELSer
October 27, 2008 10:27 AM
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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "And I Was -- Not -- There":
My intent was a back-handed compliment. My apologies if offense was taken.
ELSer
***
GJ - I took it as a compliment.