Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Hymn Study from NPH":
Part 1 of 2
Between Mark Jeske and You
Bob Smith September 7 at 5:06pm
a rogue (quasi)lutheran website offers conjecture that you are going to leave the WELS and join the LCMS. Please!! Say it ain't so!! Maybe you can squash this rumor--ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com
Mark Jeske September 9 at 9:10am
Forgive me for my slowness to respond. I am underwater in writing projects and haven't had a day off in weeks.
Greg Jackson is a crabby blogger who enjoys abusing me. I pay no attention to him whatsoever. I am a 5th generation WELS guy and have no plans to leave.
Bob Smith September 11 at 5:40pm
Yes, Greg Jackson does seem 'a little' (extremely) crabby. Did you know him when he was in the WELS? He's obviously a very angry person, but I get the impression that he's trying to do the right thing (which is why I've read his stuff. I'm trying to disseminate he theological stance and wouldn't mind a little aid. If you have a chance I'd appreciate you helping me 'Test some Spirits'. thanks
What are you writing about these days? Oh and... curious... I saw an advert for Time of Grace. I could've sworn that the person talking (announcer or ad narrator) said "Mike" Jeske. The other people in the room watching the ad thought the narrator said Mike too.
You probably don't mind as long as it's a one syllable name that starts with M:)
Take care.
Mark Jeske September 14 at 9:05am
Greg went through various Lutheran organizations. When he was in Milwaukee, going to our seminary for a colloquy semester, i (sic) think, he would sometimes visit St. Marcus for worship. [GJ - Mark phoned me and asked me to speak at St. Marcus. And I did. ] He is very well-read, well-traveled, interesting, and sharp of mind. But I fear he is using his gifts for the dark side. His bitter, insulting, libelous rants may make gossip-inspiring reading, but they hurt God's people. He is not helping to build the Lutheran
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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Hymn Study from NPH":
church of the future.
Bob Smith September 17 at 4:31pm
Well,
I guess I want to steer clear of what's some call a genetic fallacy. I can get behind what you said regarding his insults etc. But what about his central gripe with modern Lutheranism?
I don't suppose you have enough time to read his stuff, being busy busy and all. I'll give you the super-abbreviated "Cliff Notes" edition. Jackson says that Scripture (and Luther) does not teach what modern people call Objective Justification. Jackson claims that the "reconciliation" that 1 Cor. 5:19 talks about is not Justification. Jackson argues with most modern Lutheran sects by asserting that God didn't justify the entire world on Easter morning, but rather He Atoned for the worlds sin. Justification (i.e. being declared innocent) only happens to those with faith because of the renewal that happens as a result of faith.
Jackson says the Bible teaches: No faith, no perfection. Jackson also insists that many theological problems can (and have, according to him) arisen because of Objective Justification: namely, a uniquely American brand of Synergism. I just don't see it, myself.
But I have to acknowledge, put that way, Jackson's argument makes perfect Biblical sense, however much his methods might detract from what he says.
So my question for you is: Objective Justification? What do you make of Jackson's opinion? If the vinegar were honey :) does his position hold water? I really would like to hear your perspective about this because I'm trying to wade through. Personally, I'm kind of at a crossroads and I'm trying to figure out some stuff.
I'd appreciate any insight.
Thanks a bunch
Mark Jeske September 17 at 9:33pm
Hi--
Sorry that I don't have time to do a thorough presentation. Here are just some quick thoughts. I haven't read Jackson's writing on the subject, so I can't respond to his particular points.
I am very comfortable with the term and concepts of objective justification, as long as it is not considered in isolation. It could lead to universalism and a downplaying of the need for faith and the means of grace.
I think the passage you are referring to is from II Corinthians, ne c'est pas?
Grace is shocking and exists before faith ever happens. In fact, grace is the cause of faith. It produces faith. For a passage that means a lot to me and illustrates the shocking nature of grace, consider Romans 4:5 which says that God justifies the wicked. If that beautiful grace results in faith in a person, all that justification is credited to him by faith. If he rejects that beautiful grace, he loses the value of Christ's substitution for him.
Hope this helps.
In haste,
MAJ
***
GJ - I imagine Mark will use and abuse the ELS/WELS market as long as he can, but the LCMS RSO status he just earned is golden in Missouri. If he can play the martyr and get kicked out of WELS, taking his church and organization with him, the Shrinkers will be tempted to follow. Kieschnick will have a media guy for free, and Jeske Inc. will thrive on additional gifts and foundation grants - not to mention Thrivent dough.
I would like to see these big, successful churches donate money instead of always soaking up all the subsidies, free vicars, foundation grants, and Thrivent donations.
Mark is clearly the leader of Church and Change. Too bad he is not as much in love with the word Lutheran as he is with the word change.
Mark does not read Ichabod, but he is rather verbose about what he has not read: "But I fear he is using his gifts for the dark side. His bitter, insulting, libelous rants may make gossip-inspiring reading, but they hurt God's people. He is not helping to build the Lutheran (sic)..." What happened to Church and Change, Canon Law, Tome XLVII, Book II, Chapter 5, paragraph 3, subsection a - "You must sit down with me, hold my hand, and tell me my sins, or you have violated the Eighth Commandment, Matthew 18, and the Bill of Rights"?
Would Luther have said that arguing for sound doctrine was Satanic? No, but Spener did, and Jeske has a publicly professed fondness for Pietism.
The Missouri Synod he has sworn to promote (RSO documentation) might make Five-Generation-WELS-Jeske uncomfortable. The previous Synod President, Al Barry:
1. Attended the Little School on the Prairie (ELS).
2. Attended an orthodox seminary where classes were held in a church basement.
3. Vicared in a WELS congregation.
4. Joined the LCMS.
How does that compare to five generations in WELS and then oof, the Left Foot of Fellowship?
The Missouri branch of the Preus family might object to having someone as stable as Mark in their midst.
1. Robert and Jack Preus went to seminary at the proto-ELCA School - Luther.
2. Robert's wife said they were WELS for a period of time.
3. Robert, then Jack, joined the Little Sect on the Prairie. Robert was the first graduate of Bethany Seminary.
4. The Preus brothers denounced the liberalism of the LCMS and offered a motion to break fellowship with Missouri.
5. Next, they joined the Missouri Synod as professors. Jack became seminary, then synod president.
6. Rolf joined the Little Sect on the Prairie, after serving as a Missouri pastor.
7. Pope John the Malefactor extended the Left Foot of Fellowship to Rolf, who formed the Rolf Synod.
