Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Why Are the Chicaneries Raging? Aren't They in Ch...":
I recently had a conversation with my ex-pastor (a conservative and a great guy) about my recent defection to an LCMS church. I moved to Milwaukee for a job and not wanting to spend 6 months visiting WELS churches before I found one that wasn't Whoopee Worship, I used http://www.lutheranliturgy.org/ to find a Confessional church. Found one near my residence, visited and examined their teachings and found them to be in agreement with the Book of Concord. Joined the church. Done.
My ex-pastor was upset and we got into a discussion about fellowship. He told me that the LCMS church I joined cannot be teaching the truth (by definition)because we are in fellowship with the heretical LCMS churches. I mentioned that He too was in fellowship with errorists as long as Jeske and others go uncorrected.
He defended the WELS by saying that there is a difference between errorists and persistent errorists and that since we don't know the WELS errorists’ hearts it's okay to continue in fellowship with them until it becomes obvious that they are persistent. I then invited my ex-pastor to a dinner party with all my old friends who've been led astray by Jeske—I was implying that the level of persistence was obvious but I’m not sure he got it. So I said that He and the rest of the WELS actually are in fellowship with the LCMS anyway because the recognition that Jeske and Time of Grace have received from Missouri. My ex-pastor expressed his anger at the crap going on in the WELS, but he made sure to insist the LCMS's false doctrine, advising me to study the Bible and Confessions regarding Ministry, Divine Call, the definition of Church.
My questions for you: Which of the Synods' doctrines on Fellowship, Church and Ministry is more Lutheran and why? Do you think that there is any practical difference between the two views of Fellowship considering the WELS lack of discipline? Does fellowship between Christian churches exist if there is no physical interaction or exchange of ideas? Do you think it matters what Synod I belong to as long as the church I’m a part of teaches Truth?
Thank you.
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GJ - My question is, "Who believes their own official doctrine?" That is the basic mark of apostasy. The remnants of the Synodical Conference have been bowing to unionistic CG gurus for decades and watching their Doctrinal Pussycats do the same. That alone goes against their official standards, so what does fellowship mean to them? Nothing. They love fellowship with Fuller Seminary and Willow Creek. As Reu said so well, unionism causes doctrinal indifference and doctrinal indifference causes unionism. No one today would say as much as the old ALC leader Reu. They are all "ohne Reu" - lacking him and without repentance (a pun on Reu - for those of you who graduated from Mequon).
I will write more later. Let me know what your WELS pastor has done about St. Mark, Depere being a member of the Willow Creek Association. Send me a note when the DP is disciplined for his lack of discipline.
9 comments:
"My ex-pastor was upset and we got into a discussion about fellowship."
WELS pastors tend to protest too much while turning a blind eye to trashy practices and false teachings within WELS. CG has infiltrated and taken over WELS. Exactly what is going on remains shrouded in secrecy and emotion upset at the mention of it.
No way can they truthfully claim to be the one right and true religion anymore when such variances are tolerated.
This conservative (Confessional) pastor I'm referring to is a younger guy. Sadly the WELS doesn't grant authority to Pastors with the good theology, but only to those who have put in their time. I've heard several Pastors refer to this reality.
To answer your question, I think that his 'fight' has taken the form of encouraging those of like mind who have 'put in their time' (i.e. have authority) and himself remaining faithful to the Truth in his own teaching and practice.
I would like to know your thoughts about each of the two synods, if you have time.
Oh... and how's Arkansas? I suppose you're excited about gardening there. From all accounts you can grow anything.
"He defended the WELS by saying that there is a difference between errorists and persistent errorists and that since we don't know the WELS errorists’ hearts it's okay to continue in fellowship with them until it becomes obvious that they are persistent."
What a load of horse apples! If 20 years of C&C is not persistent, what is?
The chicaneries seem to have adopted the "doctrine of pick and choose". How can they adhere to the tenets of the Lutheran faith if they embrace "decision theology"? Once you go there, it's over...... If they want to be Baptist, then go and be one...Oh, by the way my teen-ager loves to read your posts. He was quite amused at the phrase "lupine footprints".
"My ex-pastor expressed his anger at the crap going on in the WELS, but he made sure to insist the LCMS's false doctrine, advising me to study the Bible and Confessions regarding Ministry, Divine Call, the definition of Church."
Rule #1. Accept no responsibility. Instead deflect issues and concerns by pointing out the ignorance of the laity.
It is ridiculous that the WELS cultish mentality leads the pastoral leadership to ignore the plank sticking out of its (WELS) own eye.
I recently had a conversation with one of the stealth leaders of C&C (Patterson). He tried to completely disown C&C and said he has his own concerns about the group ("pure gold?"). Yet he is leading the CG charge in the SouthCentral Babptist District as he gives approval to the Methodist methods of Doebler, journeys off to visit Stetzer, pushes soccer for Jesus, safari hunts to Africa, and grant writing 101 for free vicars and staph ministers.
Patterson's own church is cutting teachers' salaries, yet this small to mid-size church brings on president-in-exile Gurgel to ramp up for Patterson's ascent to DP.
Jeske, Kelm, Parlow, Patterson, et al are persistent errorist that the WELS won't touch. Yet the pastoral leadership screams about the LCMS view of ministry and fellowship principles...huh..
Every day that goes by and nobody disaplines the C&Cers and their ilk, is another day I consider moving to another church myself. Don't know if I should go and leave WELS to these wolves or am I just hanging on hoping they will leave on their own and may start their own church? Wishful thinking...
Missouri, WELS/ELS/CoLC,
LCR & ELCA yes, ALL the synods are guilty today of not putting into practise ANY DOCTRINAL DISCIPLINE, at all.
This means one if forced to be in untrue church fellowship WITH false teachers in any of the synods today....Church Fellowship (Altar & Pulpit fellowship) is supposed to mean you all teach, believe, and confess the same; in accordance with the Book of Concord's explication of understanding of God's Word....but sadly one can find that in none of the synods today.
It, therefore, seems to me there is no solution for any of us laymen, except that we actively encourage genuinely orthodox Lutheran pastors to have done with their synodical affiliations...and to go independent.
It seems to clear to me that's obviously why Pastor Jackson's gone independent. I think he was right to.
Sure does take a lot of courage, but if we want to continue in the truth I can see no alternative, myself.
Anonymous WHOLE ACTIONIST
Patterson breaketh the 8th commandment. He hideth ex- SP Gurgel. Patterson goeth to Exponential.(Community churches)And the mother of all apostasies, the UOJ being sold at the SCD(WELS) April 2010 conference. Paster GJ has the link. Somebody better show up with their Justification by Faith Alone speach. I would do it myself but can't usurp authority over the male leaders. Hey, but you dudes can.
from WELS church lady
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