Extra Nos
Lastly, Brett's point about Election and the quote of Romans 8:28-30 is relevant, of which I thought about this morning. If justification has already occurred for all, outside of faith as OJ teaches, then justification has occurred prior to calling. This contradicts the chain of redemption passage, to wit... whom he foreknew, he predestined, whom he predestined, he called, whom he called, he justified...etc.
If people are justified already, then the order says, whom he predestined, he justified, whom he justified he calls.
Have you studied Calvinism yourself? In Calvinist theology, justification or being saved(along with regeneration) occurs prior to faith. What Walther said - saved to believe.
This is why I respectfully say - as an ex-Calvinist, the way UOJ/OJ is articulated and what it implies is really operating on the paradigm of Calvinism.
Calvinists equate justification with atonement, seeing that justification is particular and since the two are the same, pulls the atonement on the justification side, hence, they conclude atonement must be limited.
UOJ does the same above, but since atonement is universal and since it is equal to justification pulls justification to the side of atonement and hence, justification is universal.
The point I make and why I am in consternation is that UOJ is doing the same effectively as what Calvinism is doing.
I left Calvinism! I do not want to go back to its way of thinking.
LPC
The Glory Has Departed
Wednesday, March 10, 2010
Ask a Former Calvinist
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8 comments:
LPC said it! Read Brenz! We are not justified without faith. You cannot have faith without the means. (Again, I will be happy to provide Brenz's quotes but I have family business to take care of)
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
Church Lady,
Yes please provide the Brenz's quote.
Thank you for this.
God bless,
LPC
Here is the link as provided to me by WELS church lady
http://www.studiumexcitare.com/content/61
Excellent sermon. He would be anathema in the WELS today.
I read that sermon -- very pastoral and simple. Excellent sermon indeed.
This is an encouragement that if we are worried that we might not have the faith spoken of by Scripture, we can go to the means of grace or the "tools" as Brenz said, that it might be formed in us.
Walther and Co wanted to fight synergism, but the solution creates more problems than it solves. Universalism does not actually produce the faith the HS brings, also the anxious believer is not encouraged to wrestle with the Scripture.
LPC
2 Corinthians 13:5, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
So much for the UOJ teaching that a Christian should not look at their faith in Christ for assurance of the forgiveness of sins.
The ferocious debate between UOJ and Christ's doctrine of Justification by Faith alone (JBFA) is not new. I personally admire Professor August Weenaas for his faithful contention in 1874 for JBFA against then Norweigen Synod President and UOJ promoter Herman Amberg Preus (grandfather to the current UOJ apostates preying on souls in the Lutheran synods). This link provides glowing introduction by Pastor Rolf Preus and details the debate from H.A. Preus' perspective.
http://www.christforus.org/Papers/Content/HermanAmbergPreusonJustificationofWorld.htm
This link provides more background on H.A. Preus from Rolf and in the section The Meaning of The Gospel details the Preus' confession even further concerning UOJ. Here are a few quotes:
"[34] Preus argued that if objective justification is not true, faith cannot be the means by which the sinner merely receives God’s forgiveness, but it must become meritorious. The denial of objective justification turns faith into a work. God will not justify the sinner solely on the basis of Christ’s redemption, but will justify the sinner only when the sinner meets the condition of having faith. Thus, the redemption of Christ does not actually cause God to forgive anyone, but merely makes God willing to forgive if sinners perform the necessary work of believing. Faith becomes a work. [35] The merit of Christ is denigrated. His satisfaction is insufficient.
Preus points out the irony of insisting that God does not forgive anyone prior to faith. He writes,
Since faith is worked only by God through his proclaiming to people that he forgives them and is no longer angry, then according to Professor Weenaas’ claim, this message must not be spoken to people before they have come to faith, then a person can never come to faith through Professor Weenaas’ gospel. Because then there is no Gospel of God through which it can be worked.[36]
In other words, if God has not forgiven all sins of all sinners for Christ’s sake, it is not possible to preach the gospel."
http://www.christforus.org/Papers/Content/LegacyHermanAmbergPreus.html
You see the false teaching of UOJ is the same. It's perversion of the Holy Spirit's faith is the same. Only back then they were clearer about what they taught and confessed whereas today they are more coy about what the doctrine teaches and how they go about demanding obedience to their man made doctrine.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
In Christ,
Brett
Correcting the links
First
http://www.christforus.org/Papers/Content/HermanAmbergPreusonJustificationofWorld.htm
Second
http://www.christforus.org/Papers/Content/LegacyHermanAmbergPreus.html
Brett,
In other words, if God has not forgiven all sins of all sinners for Christ’s sake, it is not possible to preach the gospel.
I can spot at least 2 fallacies in this assertion. This is rationalism and it does not account for the the Scriptural data.
Rev McCain complains about lack of sanctification and antinomianism he sees in his Lutheran circles.
How can there be sanctification if people are universalists? What is the point of repenting - you are saved anyway.
LPC
I have read the 1st article. It seems that Prof Weenaas's objections are absolutely sensible. I wish we have the main source as reading about him we only get from his opponent - Prof H. A. Preus, and we are not sure if he represented him accurately.
A few fallacies by Preus:
1. He opposes and brings to his aid statements of old Lutherans re: no condition on the Gospel, and if faith is that then it must be a work. This is false conclusion and false dichotomy, if not false dilemma. IMHO , faith indeed is a condition but it is a condition which God creates in us. God supplies what he demands. He freely gives us and brings his means of grace to us so that the condition he requires from us, he also meets for us. As Brenz' said - "tools".
2. The BoC speaks of why faith justifies and in other passages it speaks of not a meritorious work. When faith is mentioned Preus interprets it must be a work - this is straw man argument. It is them and not the anti-UOJ that produces the straw man. They latch on the second but ignores why faith justifies.
Pastorally, I observe for UOJ, it is never a good thing for people to question their faith. If I read rightly Weenaas' criticism is valid. Preus' doctrine comforts the comfortable and anytime the comfortable gets uncomforted - it is immediately hushed.
Scripture says our faith will be tested, it will go through the fire and when it is being tested that means it has gone through the previous phase of learning and it is ready again for an exam.
LPC
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