and fight for position.
(J.P. Meyer) "When God reconciled the world to Himself through Christ, He individually pronounced forgiveness to each individual sinner whether that sinner ever comes to faith or not."
Since I assume you believe what you wrote in the above post, then I also assume that you you disagree with J.P. Meyer, Walther, Pieper, Sig Becker and all others who claim that ALL PEOPLE have been declared righteous.
Please confirm your belief by denying its opposite.
---Tom Wyeth
From Megatron, the Legendary Database:
"This applies to the whole world, to every individual sinner, whether he was living in the days of Christ, or had died centuries before His coming, or had not yet been born, perhaps has not been born to this day. It applies to the world as such, regardless of whether a particular sinner ever comes to faith or not." J. P. Meyer, Ministers of Christ, A Commentary on the Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, Milwaukee: Northwestern Publishing House, 1963, p. 109. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21
Rydecki, an Intrepid Lutheran:
You arbitrarily define Objective Justification with the quote that supposedly came from J.P. Meyer. I say "supposedly," because Pastor Jon Buchholz was unable to find the exact source of that quote when he presented his 2005 paper at the WELS synod convention. Nevertheless he addressed it...
And so, yes, I join Pastor Buchholz in rejecting the statement you quoted as Scripturally inaccurate, and also as an inaccurate representation of Objective Justification.
****
GJ
I found the quotation on Megatron in 5 seconds. WELS is doing a 1984 and making their own published falsehoods disappear down the memory hole.
Rydecki and Buchholz reject J. P. Meyer's statement on OJ as Scripturally inaccurate and as a false representation of OJ. And yet, a WELS pastor told me that J. P. Meyer is so beloved in WELS that no one dast criticize what he has written. Can anyone sort out this sludge? It is either too deep or too shallow for me.
The WELS Kokomo Statements are their official take on justification, backed a review committee headed by their NT professor Armin Panning, seconded by Sig Becker's published approval of the Statements. Three of the four Kokomo Statements are almost verbatim from J. P. Meyer's book - published by WELS NPH.
Do not be surprised. Rydecki started with an initial observation about the Flying Gospel sermon from The Guilt Factory, followed by an excellent quotation from Luther. Both statements revealed a dissent from the UOJ bilge promoted by WELS. After 24 hours of pressure, Rydecki folded and began trumpeting the official position again, replying scornfully to those who agreed with him the day before.
WELS is not a sect but a cult - an abusive, mind-control cult, Scientology in Geneva gowns.
7 comments:
Pastor Rydecki also included this statement, "And so, yes, I join Pastor Buchholz in rejecting the statement you quoted as Scripturally inaccurate, and also as an inaccurate representation of Objective Justification."
This is not true. Buchholz did not reject what J.P. Meyer wrote in this Universalist statement, "When God reconciled the world to Himself through Christ, He individually pronounced forgiveness to each individual sinner whether that sinner ever comes to faith or not."
Buchholz' 2005 Convention essay given to the hundreds of (W)ELS clergy and laity declared the following Universalist teachings that are in harmony with J.P. Meyer's confession.
"God has forgiven the whole world. God has forgiven everyone his sins." This statement is absolutely true! This is the heart of the gospel, and it must be preached and taught as the foundation of our faith. But here’s where the caveat comes in: In Scripture, the word "forgive" is used almost exclusively in a personal, not a universal sense. The Bible doesn’t make the statement, "God has forgiven the world."
"God has forgiven all sins, but the unbeliever rejects God’s forgiveness." Again, this statement is true—and Luther employed similar terminology to press the point of Christ’s completed work of salvation.16 But we must also recognize that Scripture doesn’t speak this way."
"Since the term objective justification is found neither in Scripture nor in the Lutheran confessions, we can understand the term correctly as referring to the justification of the entire world."
"God has declared the entire world righteous." This statement is true, as we understand it to mean that God has rendered a verdict of "not-guilty" toward the entire world. It is also true—and must be taught—that the righteousness of Christ now stands in place of the world’s sin; this is the whole point of what Jesus did for us at Calvary. However, once again we’re wresting a term out of its usual context. In Scripture the term "righteous" usually refers to believers."
Buchholz' confession, that was parroted by the South Central District pastor's essays on UOJ, is in fact the clear and accurate representation of Objective Justification. This is proven by his statement quoted above and also serves to prove that UOJ teaches a new gospel, "God has forgiven the whole world. God has forgiven everyone his sins." This statement is absolutely true! This is the heart of the gospel"
UOJ teaches another gospel which is condemned by Christ in Galations 1:6-9, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Solely by the grace and mercy of God may these men repent of their defense and teaching of the false gospel of UOJ and turn in faith to the Gospel as declared by Scripture and promoted and defended by the faithful Lutheran Confessions.
I posted this comment at Intrepid (sic) Lutherans, and have posted it here for posterity:
Pastor Rydecki,
As a brother in Christ I must say: Your dodging of questions and control of information is disquieting. The Wisconsin Synod needs to have its senses sharpened, not dulled.
I find it impossible to understand why you would run from a conversation about Justification. If your position is so easily defendable (and so obviously true) why wouldn't you take my comment as an opportunity to clarify the issue of Objective Justification?
If you don't like my points a) and b), please say why. Without bias, those two points remain the clearest and most succinct summaries of the pro and anti Objective Justification arguments. Having read much of what you've written on this blog, I respect your mind enough to say that you are capable of it. You're no dummy.
Why the subterfuge? Why the deceit? If you want me to Prove, in no uncertain terms that my two statement a) and b) are fair and valid summaries, I will do so.
I fear you have been coerced into abandoning discernment by people who can legitimately threaten your job. Let me encourage you that IF this is the case, by forging ahead and practicing discernment (which WILL include questioning the WELS doctrinal positions) you will store up treasures for yourself.
You need to quit thinking about the WELS and begin thinking about the invisible church. If you truly believe your Pastoral Call is from God, then the WELS is merely a cosmic fart. If you lose your job, are shunned, become a Barista, or are physically harmed for your application of 1 John 4:1, you will be better for it.
Again
a)Is Christ's righteousness universally available but imputed individually only through faith?
or
b) Are all people declared Righteous, and the benefits of the Righteousness imputed through faith?
I'm sick of some of these people trying to view Subjective and Objective Justification like this. This is not a false dichotomy: 'saved' is acquired only through the means of grace.
Rydecki is likely onto something that definitions are a roadblock. You can't be logical if one person's definition of "Subjective Justification" Is different from another's. And then, nobody states why. Why is your own definition correct? Details, more examples, less generalizations. That's why I'm glad Pastor Rydecki is pointing straight to scripture and not to this [confusing] terminology.
Garret,
The terms are not confusing, if you do some home work. The material is all easily available at Ichabod. Read how people describe UOJ and you'll see that the two options written by Tom seem to be pretty precise and succinct description of Justification a) of Jackson, Brett Meyer, Maier and others b) of UOJ proponents.
I was once told by a College professor to 'embrace ambiguity'. Interestingly this professor also said that 'definitions are roadblocks'. But in action, that Professor only 'embraced' ambiguity when it suited his best interest, and only decried definitions when he painted himself into a corner with his own words. Rydecki is playing the same game by refusing to provide a definition and refusing to defend the WELS definition for UOJ. As soon as the face of the argument was shaved, he ran like a scared rabbit. For UOJ to be defended, entities must be multiplied beyond necessity. (flipping Occam's statement.)
Garret, if Pastors use a term that isn't in the Scriptures, isn't in the writings of the early Church Fathers, isn't in the Lutheran Confessions, then the onus is on them to provide and defend a definition. What Tom was doing, I think, was to demand a definition, and to hold people responsible for what their words actually mean.
True or false?
A man without faith is either innocent or he is not innocent.
I for one, in witnessing the struggle for God's pure doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone, am encouraged in spirit by the public confession and statements, faithful to Christ, made by men and women such as Bored, LPC, Tom Wyeth, WELS Church Lady, Scott E. Jungen and others.
May Christ, by his gracious love and mercy, continue to give you each the strength and wisdom to continue in the one true faith, contending for the truth, rebuking false teachings, defending the pure Word unto life everlasting.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
Brett,
Thank you! I consider it a blessing and an honor to be mentioned with the people on your list.
Scott E. Jungen
WELS is divided, much like Missouri and the Little Sect on the Prairie. They need to have a series of Come to Kokomo conferences, since some brains need re-washing.
Not much effort needs to be applied. There are many clergy who are willing to make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of WELS.
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