Ichabod, The Glory Has Departed: Manthey Denies There Are Two Justifications in WELS

Thursday, October 7, 2010

Manthey Denies There Are Two Justifications in WELS - Intrepid Lutherans

Intrepid Lutherans

Daniel Baker said...: The first point of "This We Believe" leaves room for contention with regard to its blanket "declaration of righteousness." As Mr. Lindee suggests, I believe this is a prime example of "sloppiness" in terminology. Would it REALLY be that hard to simply state that Christ's merits are credited as righteousness to those in whom the Holy Spirit has created faith by means of the gospel? That would be a perfectly biblical and confessional alternative to the questionable statement we have here. The way in which we pull verse 18 out of chapter 5 amidst a plethora of other verses that state faith is credited as righteousness is startling. It seems highly reminiscent of certain other religious factions who like to pull select verses out of Romans 9 to promote what we find "blasphemous" per point 10 above. We are righteous in God's sight because when He looks at us, he sees Jesus (at least that's what I was taught in my 14 years of WELS education). If He has declared unbelievers righteous, why would they be going to hell? Christ bore the sins of all on Calvary, yes, but his merits are not applied unless the Holy Spirit has created faith - hence crediting righteousness. Am I wrong in my above assessment? I admit that this whole topic is mind boggling to me, and I have not thoroughly studied all the content that pertains to it. If I err in some way, please reproach me.; October 6, 2010 2:31 PM
LutherRocks said...: Oh praise the Lord...and I mean that in the most Lutheran of tone!!! This is good...this is STELLAR!!! Now we are getting to the heart of the matter...to the meat! 2929 N. Mayfair Rd. are you listening? Mequon...are you getting this? It is my opinion that a lot of this goes back to the residual effects of the LCMS (A Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod [Adopted 1932]) and undoubtedly much further.(There are glaring problems in Kretzmann circa 1921.) This passage puts it all in perspective and context: Genesis 15:6 (King James Version) And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness. In the spirit of the Reformation! Joe Krohn; October 6, 2010 7:20 PM
Brett Meyer said...: I agree with the statements of Daniel Baker and Joe Krohn. I do, however, believe that when the official confession of the (W)ELS states, "1. We believe that God has justified all sinners, that is, he has declared them righteous for the sake of Christ." it is not a matter of sloppy writing or confession. It is a precise confession with words carefully chosen to convey a specific declaration, that all people, believers and unbelievers, have been declared by God to be righteous. My reason for believing this is that it is in perfect harmony with other WELS confessions concerning the central doctrine of the (W)ELS. I provide quotes to support this and also quotes from the Norm, the normed norm and Martin Luther that reject this confession as it is opposed to God's pure Word. WELS President of MLC, Mark Zarling, "Perhaps such a distinction is helpful if it assists us in understanding the glorious Gospel: In Jesus, God has declared the entire world righteous and forgiven, irregardless of whether or not the world believes it. Such is the jewel described by objective, universal, or general justification." Page 2 http://www.wlsessays.net/files/ZarlingJustification.pdf WELS CA/AZ District President, Pastor Jon Buchholz 2005 Convention Essay "God has declared the entire world righteous." This statement is true, as we understand it to mean that God has rendered a verdict of "not-guilty" toward the entire world. It is also true—and must be taught—that the righteousness of Christ now stands in place of the world’s sin; this is the whole point of what Jesus did for us at Calvary." Page 17 http://www.wlsessays.net/node/390 WELS Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, Prof. Forrest L. Bivens "To phrase it somewhat differently, God has justified, acquitted or declared righteous the whole world of sinners. He has forgiven them. They have been reconciled to God. Their status in his eyes has been changed from that of sinner to forgiven sinner for the sake of Jesus Christ. Since all this applies to all people, the term universal or general justification is used. In our circles an alternate term, objective justification, is also used. If justification is universal, it must also be objective; sinners have been forgiven whether they believe it or not." http://www.wlsessays.net/files/BivensMessage.pdf SCRIPTURE, THE CONFESSIONS AND LUTHER: Romans 4:5, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Cont...; October 6, 2010 7:50 PM
Brett Meyer said...: Cont... Apology of the Augsburg Confession, That We Obtain Remission of Sins by Faith Alone in Christ. "But the remission of sins is received by faith alone, and, indeed, by faith properly so called, because the promise cannot be received except by faith. But faith, properly so called, is that which assents to the promise [is when my heart, and the Holy Ghost in the heart, says: The promise of God is true and certain]. Of this faith Scripture speaks. And because it receives the remission of sins, and reconciles us to God, by this faith we are [like Abraham] accounted righteous for Christ's sake before we love and do the works of the Law, although love necessarily follows. Nor, indeed, is this faith an idle knowledge, neither can it coexist with mortal sin, but it is a work of the Holy Ghost, whereby we are freed from death, and terrified minds are encouraged and quickened. And because this faith alone receives the remission of sins, and renders us acceptable to God, and brings the Holy Ghost, it could be more correctly called _gratia gratum faciens_, grace rendering one pleasing to God, than an effect following, namely, love." "But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ's sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy. Accordingly, Scripture testifies that by faith we are accounted righteous, Rom. 3, 26. We, therefore, will add testimonies which clearly declare that faith is that very righteousness by which we are accounted righteous before God, namely, not because it is a work that is in itself worthy, but because it receives the promise by which God has promised that for Christ's sake He wishes to be propitious to those believing in Him," http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php The Defense of the Augsburg Confession What Is Justifying Faith? 48] "The adversaries feign that faith is only a knowledge of the history, and therefore teach that it can coexist with mortal sin. Hence they say nothing concerning faith, by which Paul so frequently says that men are justified, because those who are accounted righteous before God do not live in mortal sin." http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php Luther's Commentary on Galations "Paul's words contain the implication of contrast. When he quotes Scripture to the effect that all nations that share the faith of faithful Abraham are to be blessed, Paul means to imply the contrast that all nations are accursed without faith in Christ. VERSE 10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse. The curse of God is like a flood that swallows everything that is not of faith. To avoid the curse we must hold on to the promise of the blessing in Christ." "Paul goes on to prove from this quotation out of the Book of Deuteronomy that all men who are under the Law are under the sentence of sin, of the wrath of God, and of everlasting death." "I cannot tell you in words how criminal it is to seek righteousness before God without faith in Christ, by the works of the Law. It is the abomination standing in the holy place. It deposes the Creator and deifies the creature." http://www.bibleteacher.org/luthercom_3.htm In Christ, Brett Meyer; October 6, 2010 7:50 PM
Brett Meyer said...: Not to jump ahead, only to clarify for the moment, the issue taken with "God has declared all sinners righteous" is not the only confession in the (W)ELS This We Believe under Justification By Grace Through Faith that is contrary to Scripture and the Confessions and should be discussed at some point. In my opinion the the following quotes are also at issue and are inseparable from the confession that "all sinners are declared righteous". (1.)All need forgiveness of sins before God, and Scripture proclaims that all have been justified, for "the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men" (7.)We reject all efforts to present faith as a condition people must fulfill to complete their justification. (BM - this needs to be clarified in order to be addressed appropriately. ie: Does it intend to state, we reject declarations that faith must be present to be justified by God, as the WELS has taught and is currently teaching); October 6, 2010 10:39 PM
Gregory L. Jackson said...: The Holy Spirit only works through the Word (Isaiah 55) and never apart from the Word. Calvin and others taught that the Holy Spirit did God's work without the Word. Grace comes to man only through God's appointed Instruments of Grace, the invisible Word of preaching teaching, the visible Word of the sacraments. To claim otherwise is pure Enthusiasm, which is utterly condemned by the Book of Concord. As Paul clearly teaches in Romans 10, preaching the Gospel moves people to faith, who are declared righteous by God, receiving forgiveness of sin and the promise of eternal life. Therefore, there cannot be two justifications, one without the Means of Grace and without effect - the other where faith as God's own creation is diminished and ridiculed. Only one justification is taught in the Bible and the Book of Concord. The heresy of grace without the Means of Grace came from Calvinism via the Pietism of Halle University. Halle quickly turned from Pietism to rationalism, eventually absorbing Wittenberg University, which no longer exists. That should serve as a warning to all those who excuse, promote, or ignored UOJ. Forgiveness without faith is a cancer. Galatians 1:8.; October 7, 2010 6:14 AM
Anonymous said...: I need to read everything more in depth still. Christ died once and for all, isn't that correct. Scripture says, "that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation" --2 Corinthians 5:19 In some sense, I would think that Christ death justifies the world. Faith is entirely the work of God. Christ's atonement is not limited. If it were so, we would be suscribing to the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement. Not only did he die for the sins of the Christian, but the sins of the whole world. So, in some sense, I believe he has justified the whole world. Yet, we are saved by grace through faith. I, however, am unsure how Scripture can both say that Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world, and yet only some are to be chosen to go to heaven. This is my question. Levi Powers; October 7, 2010 8:54 AM
Rev. Paul A. Rydecki said...: Levi, I'm trying to let the discussion continue without chiming in at every comment or at every assertion. But there are some questions I don't want to leave hanging in midair. You're absolutely right that Christ has died to pay for the sins of the world. The atonement he made on the cross is NOT limited to those who believe, or who will believe. There can be no question about this. In the same way, the paradox remains in the doctrine of election, and Lutherans have no problems with the paradox: God elected some to salvation, but he elected no one to condemnation. If someone believes and is saved, it is 100% the work of God. If someone disbelieves and is condemned, it is 100% the fault of man. Perhaps the words of Luther Against the Heavenly Prophets will shed some light on the discussion, "We treat of the forgiveness of sins in two ways. First, how it is achieved and won. Second, how it is distributed and given to us. Christ has achieved it on the cross, it is true. But he has not distributed or given it on the cross. He has not won it in the supper or sacrament. There he has distributed and given it through the Word, as also in the gospel, where it is preached. He has won it once for all on the cross. But the distribution takes place continuously, before and after, from the beginning to the end of the world. For inasmuch as he had determined once to achieve it, it made no difference to him whether he distributed it before or after, through his Word, as can easily be proved from Scripture. But now there is neither need nor time to do so. "If now I seek the forgiveness of sins, I do not run to the cross, for I will not find it given there. Nor must I hold to the suffering of Christ, as Dr. Karlstadt trifles, in knowledge or remembrance, for I will not find it there either. But I will find in the sacrament or gospel the word which distributes, presents, offers, and gives to me that forgiveness which was won on the cross. Therefore, Luther has rightly taught that whoever has a bad conscience from his sins should go to the sacrament and obtain comfort, not because of the bread and wine, not because of the body and blood of Christ, but because of the word which in the sacrament offers, presents, and gives the body and blood of Christ, given and shed for me." (Luther's Works: Vol. 40, p.213).; October 7, 2010 9:21 AM
Brett Meyer said...: In This We Believe posted above the WELS confession concerning Justification Romans 5:18 is used to contend that God declared the whole unbelieving world Justified by Christ whether they believe it or not. "All need forgiveness of sins before God, and Scripture proclaims that all have been justified, for "the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men" (Romans 5:18)." KJV - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." It's important to point out that if this verse is to be used as proof of universal Justification then to remain consistent it also is proof of universal salvation because the Justification that came upon all men is that Justification which brings eternal life. ie: "the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." "unto justification of life." KJV The exegesis that UOJ uses to declare the whole world Justified has in the same verse declared them saved, "life for all men." Christ declares in this verse that the very same Justification brings life for all men. Note there aren’t two justifications here as UOJ teaches, Objective and Subjective. The one Justification brings life. Anyone who is declared Justified by God is saved. Now I understand that every UOJist will wreathe in anguish over this and say they do not teach Universal Salvation but then they cannot use this verse in an attempt to prove Universal Justification either. It's by God's grace that in this one verse there is the refutation of UOJ's claim that the whole world was Justified. It's important to remember the Lutheran method of exegesis which is that no verse is to be interpreted alone, Scripture interprets Scripture (2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.) and with this method the clarity, unity and perspicuity of Scripture is brought forth by the gracious work of the Holy Spirit working through the Word. I hope this helps the discussion.; October 7, 2010 11:43 AM
Mathetes said...: (Apologies to the moderators. I forgot to put my John Hancock on my comment.) Thanks to all of you "Impavidissimos" for getting to this heart of Lutheranism! Any discrepancies in this doctrine seem to appear "like maggots on firewood that come with a gentle touch, but have the hardest teeth, and gnaw away at the core of the firewood, yet resulting that it still appears undamaged on the surface." (Also Martin Chemnitz, Loci Theologici, Locus on Poverty. Translation own.) It is so very easy to think of atonement and saving as the same thing. It is not. The wonderful phrase "Christ died for the whole world" does not mean that the whole world is heaven-bound. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13-14) Mr. Benjamin Rusch; October 7, 2010 11:51 AM
Brett Meyer said...: Correction: I wrote "wreathe" and should have written "writhe". Forgive me, I didn't mean to imply that UOJists are in the holiday spirit.; October 7, 2010 12:07 PM
Michael Sullivan said...: Because of his promise to Abraham, God declared all Old Testament Israel to be his chosen people. And yet only those who believed His Word were the true children of God. In the Old Testament the promise made by God was offered to every Israelites; it was objectively declared. But it only benefited those who received it by faith, those who heard the promise and in whose heart faith was created by means of the Word . Isn't this similar to justification? God declared the whole world forgiven, but only those who believe this promise receive forgiveness and are truly forgiven. Only those who hear the Gospel and in whose heart faith is created by means of the Gospel, truly receive the promise of salvation and forgiveness. My point is this: The argument against universal objective justification being that it sounds silly ("God saying you are forgiven, but not really") is not really an argument. God said something similar to his Old Testament people when He declared them to be his own, and yet only those who received this promise by faith were truly his own. Isn’t there a parallel here? (If not, I am willing to be corrected with an explanation.) Another question I have is this: Every time I read Romans 3:23,24 I see Universal Objective Justification. If the subject of the participle of δικαιούμενοι in verse 24 is not πάντες of verse 23, than what is? I really would like to see a brief explanation of this verse from someone who says universal objective justification is not in Scripture. In Christian love, Michael Sullivan; October 7, 2010 1:08 PM
Anonymous said...: I think part of the misunderstanding as well is the context. We must remember that Paul is writing to the Christians in Rome. They are already saved. There is a premise in place because of this. Paul is not addressing John Q. Public. Peace in Jesus, Joe Krohn; October 7, 2010 1:12 PM
Rev. Paul A. Rydecki said...: Pr. Sullivan, I would add a comment here about Romans 3:23-24 as a matter of exegesis. (Obviously a brief comment like this can't do exegetical justice to this section in Romans, but for what it's worth...) It's not quite as simple as saying πάντες = all people, always, period. The context will reveal who the "all" are. In v.22, Paul has just described what this "righteousness" is that has been revealed, and how it comes: a "righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to πάντας those who believe." Faith is already identified as key to this justification that comes from God. In v.23, the πάντες clearly refers to "all" those whom Paul has already proved to be under sin, i.e., "the whole world" (c.f. v.19), both Jews and Gentiles. No question there. But in v.24, the verb is a present tense, δικαιούμενοι, "being justified." One would think that if these "all" have already been justified, Paul would have used a perfect tense here. The present seems to indicate the status change that takes place as people are brought to faith in Jesus through the gospel. In Luther's Commentary on Romans, he adds a gloss here: "all, as many as are justified" (quotquot justificantur in Latin). As many as are justified are justified, not by works, but freely by his grace...through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus...through faith in his blood. Paul wraps up the whole thought of the paragraph in v.26, δικαιοῦντα τὸν ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ, "justifying the one who is of the faith in Jesus." I just don't see how faith is not an essential part of Paul's whole argument here - not faith as "that which man brings to the table," but faith as that gift of God through which a man's status before God changes from "wicked" to "righteous."; October 7, 2010 2:19 PM
Brett Meyer said...: Michael, I believe your initial example is pointing to two very different things. God’s chosen people were the Isrealites, the decendents of Abraham. Chosen, meaning chosen to be the people through whom God would bring the promised Messiah. Not chosen as to those who would be His children and receive the forgiveness of sins since there were people of other nations who were children of God through faith in the promised Messiah, and because, as you correctly point out, there were those within the nation of Isreal who rejected the promise. Now this is separate from how God declared how the Old Testament people could become the children of God and receive the forgiveness of their sins. That way was through believing in the promised Messiah. Your statement, “In the Old Testament the promise made by God was offered to every Israelites; it was objectively declared. But it only benefited those who received it by faith”, is a good example of why this distinction needs to be made. You bring in a critical consideration concerning when a person is considered Justified, further, at what point is God’s wrath over a person’s sin removed, and he becomes a child of God. Christ declares in Galations 3:6-9, “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.” Romans 3:23-25, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood…” Note that verse 24 declares, “redemption that is in Christ Jesus” and teaches that in Christ is redemption from sin and death, in Christ is all righteousness and, in fact, the only righteousness that exists is in Christ and never apart from Him. Verse 25 shows how we have access to Christ’s righteousness, how He becomes the propitiation for someone’s sins, and that is through faith in His blood, through faith in Christ we are in Him and He in us. Through faith we have all that is His, His righteousness which avails against God’s wrath, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Instantaneously through faith worked graciously by the Holy Ghost through the Word and Sacraments, the Means of Grace. Pastor Rydecki’s quote of Luther’s faithful Against the Heavenly Prophets confirms this also. More importantly the Confessions of the Lutheran Church confirm this here, The Defense of the Augsburg Confession What Is Justifying Faith?, 48] "The adversaries feign that faith is only a knowledge of the history, and therefore teach that it can coexist with mortal sin. Hence they say nothing concerning faith, by which Paul so frequently says that men are justified, because those who are accounted righteous before God do not live in mortal sin." http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php Those who are accounted righteous before God do not live in mortal sin. This is a faithful confession which is in harmony with Scripture, anything contrary to this is not of God. I hope this helps, In Christ, Brett Meyer; October 7, 2010 2:37 PM
Marcus Manthey said...: As I read this thread, I must admit to being more than a little perplexed. I was unaware that there was, among us, such profound confusion over this vital doctrine of Scripture. Some of the statements here – particularly those that refer to “two justifications,” demonstrate a shallowness of thinking that is inconsistent with the level of theological concern and involvement typically displayed on this blog. Where has this idea come from? Is not the language sufficiently plain to make clear that what is called “objective justification” or “subjective justification” is simple short-hard for “justification viewed from an objective, or general, perspective” and “justification viewed from a subjective, or personal, perspective?” These are not two justifications, nor has any WELS statement or confession of which I am aware ever claimed as much. It is, rather, two ways of speaking about the one justification that Scripture teaches. It acknowledges that Scripture itself speaks about God’s act of justification in two distinct, though related, ways. That’s why, in 2 Corinthians 5, Paul can write in v.18 of “God, who reconciled us (i.e. believers) to himself through Christ,” then in the very next verse and say “God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ.” Paul isn’t talking about two reconciliations; he is only viewing God’s act of reconciling from two different points of view. Think of justification as a magnificent banquet God has prepared. He intends all the delicious food and drink to be for all people. He has issued banquet invitations to all people. He isn’t kidding; the banquet really is for all. However, some people don’t know about the invitation so they don’t come to the banquet. Some don’t believe the invitation is meant for them so they don’t come. Some convince themselves that they won’t like or don’t need the food being served at the banquet so they don’t come. A fortunate few hear God’s invitation and believe it; they come to the banquet and enjoy all it has to offer. Then God lets them go out and tell those who don’t know it yet just how wonderful God’s banquet is. The banquet that God prepares for all and the banquet that is enjoyed by the few are not two different banquets. It’s the same banquet, viewed from two points of view. The banquet as God sees it is for everyone; the banquet as the believer views it is just for him or her. Same banquet. That’s justification, and if you read Scripture and the Confessions (and the WELS writers quoted above) with that in mind, you will find that all the pieces fall into place.; October 7, 2010 4:16 PM
LutherRocks said...: "These are not two justifications, nor has any WELS statement or confession of which I am aware ever claimed as much." There are scads; as recent as last June at the South Central District Convention. Go to their website. Go to the WELS website. Go to the seminary website. There are essays/statements/confessions galore. Joe Krohn; October 7, 2010 4:40 PM
Rev. Paul A. Rydecki said...: Marcus, Thanks for your comments. They are much appreciated and well stated. The banquet analogy seems appropriate (reminiscent of a certain parable, of course). I think the questions arise more when the forensic analogy is applied. For example, some would ask, "Is that atheist over there considered by God to be righteous or unrighteous - innocent or guilty - saint or sinner - saved or condemned?" At least, that's how I've heard the question phrased. I'll step out of the discussion again for awhile and allow others to answer.; October 7, 2010 5:23 PM