Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Speak Up":
This discussion brings up the nature of the (W)ELS doctrine concerning the Public Ministry of the Word (PMW). Clearly those in the office within the (W)ELS agree with the doctrine as it's taught and enforced (enforced is a strong word in the (W)ELS concerning doctrine, maybe encouraged or suggested would be better - have you read the essays in the (W)ELS Essay files?!).
(W)ELS teaches that they have the God given right to change what Christ instituted and restrict parts of the overall PMW responsibilities to one individual (male or female) and still call it a divine office instituted by Christ. They still insist that it's a divine office into which Christ Himself calls these people to serve. This is why they can so easily remove someone from the position. They have taken Christ's place. Certainly (W)ELS President Moldstad set a solid precedent when he wickedly schemed to have Pastor Preus removed from his active call. Less than a handful of churches protested so the churches that remain in fellowship with the (W)ELS agree that his Antichristian behavior was acceptable. I say, so far (W)ELS is getting less then what they have asked for. Why are you upset at the termination of this pastor? Or any pastor.
What are the reasons Scripture gives that allow the removal of the man that Christ calls to serve a congregation?
Bueller, Bueller....anyone?
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GJ - Many times they hate someone out of the call, and they wonder why the children of church workers are not signing up for their $100,000 college degrees. Ha.
WELS is dead, and the Amen! Corner is sure to follow.
Missouri loves to work with ELCA, too. That will make Missouri even more like ELCA, and not make ELCA more like Missouri.
They all agree on universal absolution - without the Word. Doctrinal agreement and fellowship always work together.
7 comments:
Missouri is already like ELCA; they just don't admit it on paper. They will badmouth ELCA but fellowship with numerous church bodies that are in fellowship with LWF. An LCMS parishioner visiting Europe or Africa could "legally" commune at an LWF member church at the same altar with an ELCA parishioner. Oh, but membership doesn't equal fellowship, so I was told.
Following that reasoning, I should be able to belong to my local Masonic Lodge and the local LCMS church. Just because I belong to the Masonic Lodge doesn't mean I agree with their religious views. And let's not forget all the nice things the Masons do for other people and the community.
You have to hand it to ELCA in that they are at least honest in saying who they are. The "confessional" synods talk the talk, but ...
Brett,
I believe teaching of false doctrine,not being apt to teach, scandalous life are some the reasons for removal from the ministry. Those are the ones off the top of my head.
Nowhere of which I know does Scripture say anything about church budgets. Hmmmmm.
Scott E. Jungen
PS- Another reason is health. But I saw that misused to remove a coworker the principal didn't like. Soooooo.
SEJ
Narrow,
You have to hand it to ELCA in that they are at least honest in saying who they are. The "confessional" synods talk the talk, but ..
I interpret this as saying, it is at least better with ELCA as they are the devil we know, but with LC-MS? Well, they are the devil we do not know (how much of a devil they are)?
Just asking (and interpreting).
hehe...
LPC
Sorry I poorly worded my point. ELCA is rotten, but the smugness of Missouri and WELS is nauseating. It would be like going on a date with a known prostitute vs. going out with a "nice" girl that tells you she is a part-time prostitute as you walk her to the door at the conclusion of the date. Once the "nice" girl is discovered to be not-so-nice, would you not run as fast as you could? Wouldn't you feel proud to take her home to Mom and Dad?
This was me five years ago in Missouri. Yes, we always pointed out the errors of ELCA, and rightly so. When I started considering sem, I began to study and look into things. The conclusion was that practice was not nearly as orthodox as the talk. I also concluded from this study that the vast majority of the laity are either ignorant, poorly catechized, or simply will never leave or make waves because their great-grandparents were LCMS-ers.
Missouri bad-mouths ELCA for their tolerance of homosexuality, and rightly so; but Missouri fails to dicipline in the case of an openly-homosexual music director out West. Missouri bad-mouths ELCA for liberal Communion practice; but an LCMS seminary prof told me that it's the DP's job to enforce closed Communion when I asked him why the LCMS was not addressing the issue of closed Communion. Missouri bad-mouths female ordination in ELCA, yet LCMS females are allowed to assist in the distibution and readings.
I could go on for pages, so enough. My ultimate point is that LCMS is twenty-to-thirty years behind ELCA.
Masons are devil worshipers! WELS does NOT commune masons, and they WON'T. Scottishrites is a racist organization.(I refer you to Trent Lott.) Once Church And Change takes a stand for these lodges, that will be the day everyone starts to smell the coffee. Most of the NIV translators were/are masons. Most of the prominent tele-evangelists are also freemasons.(Billy Graham was one) These people are dangerous. They advacate population control and universal salvation. How for away is that from the evils of abortion and atheism?(Oop's "atheism" is a bad word, I meant to say freethinking.)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:1
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
Church Lady,
On the day that Church and Change takes a Scriptural stand on anything, we won't have to worry about smelling any coffee. It will be Judgement Day and we will be in the Church Triumphant. And hell will have frozen over too!
Scott E. Jungen
I was not saying, LPC, that ELCA is better. Far from it. I am just saying they are more honest. Sorry I was not clear in my point, which is merely that LCMS is thirty years behind ELCA.
For example, ELCA is liberal in their Communion doctrine and practice. LCMS on the other hand, is closed Communion on paper. I questioned a sem prof a few years ago as to why the LCMS does not discipline those practicing open Communion. His reply was that it's up to the DP's to enforce closed Communion. It's easier to pass the buck than do something about it.
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