Bruce Church has left a new comment on your post "Bloated Hours, Bloated Costs at Lutheran Seminarie...":
May 3rd, 2011:
Rev. Bruce Foster has emailed Dr. Jackson that Bruce Church has got it wrong about the duration of the M. Div. degree at the LCMS seminaries. Foster said that ATS is quoting semester hours while LCMS seminaries run on a quarter hour system. Once one converts from metric to standard, so to speak, Rev. Foster alleges that what LCMS seminary requirements are not much more arduous than the ATS minimum requirement for an accredited M Div degree.
First, I should say that even if all that were true, and none of it is, why prescind the data about the overall M Div degree cost? That would not be affected by any credit hour conversion error. An M Div at the LCMS seminaries is the 9th and 11th most pricey M Div in all of N America, and far more pricey than other Lutheran seminaries.
Second, the LCMS M Div program is a marathon four-year program, yet enough students find it so strenuous that they go five years, or take courses during two or three summers. One can Google and see that most M Div programs are designed as two- or three-year programs, and the person gets a certification (e.g., CPE). If a program takes four or five years, the person graduates with two degrees, aka joint-, dual-, or double-degrees, and a certification.
The truth is that the ATS minimum requirement for a M Div is two years of academic work totaling 48 semester hours, which converts to 72 quarter hours (links below), since one semester hour equals about 1.5 quarter hours. A credit is synonymous with hour, BTW.
Ft. Wayne's requirement of 137 quarter hours equal 91.33 semester hours, and St. Louis' required 139 quarter hours equal 92.67 semester hours. So no matter how it is sliced and diced, LCMS seminaries require nearly twice what the ATS requires for an accredited M Div degree.
Cont'd...
Rev. Foster also upheld the worth of a LCMS M Div against Dr. Jackson's estimation of it. Dr. Jackson is comparing the degree based on several standards, among them: academic value in the divinity world, value among Lutherans generally, and value in the business world. Since 95% of Lutherans are non-Waltherian, any Waltherian degree would be suspect to most Lutheran church bodies. I suspect a M Div isn't even worth one year in business school.
The academic value of the LCMS M Div is not that much greater than a degree from many seminaries that cost a third less, or require a year less study, and perhaps a shorter internship if that's required at all.
Most seminaries require far fewer credit hours, and are much less expensive. One outlier is Concordia Seminary in St. Catharines which is the least expensive accredited Lutheran seminary but requires more quarter hours than the rest: 111 semester hours (166.5 quarter hours). However, it must not be much harder than the LCMS seminaries since it has the same four-year program with the third year being vicarage.
ATS: Addressing issues of degree duration
http://www.ats.edu/accrediting/usefulinfo/pages/suggestionsforwritersofreports.aspx
excerpt: Thus, a two-year master’s program would consist of at least 48 semester hours.
Semester Hours Vs. Quarter Hours
http://www.ehow.com/about_5372585_semester-hours-vs-quarter-hours.html
Semester Hour to Quarter Hour Conversion Tables:
http://www.auburn.edu/semesters/conversion.html
Program Requirements - M. Div.
Successful completion of 111 semester hours
http://www.brocku.ca/concordiaseminary/academics.php
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GJ - ELCA Pastor Bruce Foster wrote this:
Dear Dr. Jackson
I have never read Atlas Shrugged although I have read enough about the book in other contexts that I could probably write a pretty good book report on it (I have read Ayn Rand's philosophical works... no thank you. Her atheism is the least of her problems). I certainly know all the slogans from the book including the dramatic question, "Who is John Gault?" (sic - Galt)
I mention all this simply as an introduction to my question "Who is Bruce Church?" You label him "The Rev. Bruce Church" but I have not been able to find him under WELS or LCMS lists of pastors. I assume he is not an ELCA pastor. There is a Bruce Church listed as a pastor in North Carolina but his church is a "Community Church," the kind that you regularly condemn so I assume that's not him.
Of course, a perfectly good response to my question would be, "Why do you care?" That answer is this. The Rev. Church has posted a number of times condemnations of LCMS for their bloated requirements for an MDiv. He compares the 72 hours required by the ATS and the 137 hours of St. Louis and Fort Wayne. He goes on to impute all kinds of evil motives to this bloating. What confuses me, however, is this. ATS is quoting semester hours. St. Louis is on a quarter system. 72 semester hours converts into 108 quarter hours. Furthermore St Louis gives 18 hours credit for vicarage. The net difference then between ATS minimum requirement and St Louis is 11 quarter hours over three years or one course extra a year. And please note that ATS numbers and St. Louis numbers without that extra course work out to be 12 credit hours a term/semester, hardly a big stretch.
These requirements at St. Louis have been in effect for at least 41 years since they were the requirements when I was there. As a matter of fact back then the problem was that students were taking too many credits and finishing early. I found many interesting courses and always took 15 credits per term.
If you would be so kind as to give me Bruce Church's email address I would be happy to explore this issue with him directly. As it stands now, however, he is well hidden on the internet and I have not been able to find him.
Bruce Foster
PS - As for your comments about how useless an MDiv from St. Louis is, please contact James Voelz or Andrew Bartelt , two friends of mine who are senior members of the faculty. Somehow they got each a Ph.D. from Cambridge University (Voelz, advisor, GWH Lampe editor of the Patristic Greek Lexicon) and the University of Michigan( Bartelt, advisor David Noel Freedman editor Anchor Bible Series) with nothing more than a St. Louis MDiv before.
Foster likes to see his own words in print, at least in a place where more than his family members and creditors read them.
He has offered two examples of men who were employable once they got real degrees - Voelz and Bartelt. In the academic world and professional world, an MDiv is worthless. So is a DMin, which can also be bought from the two LCMS seminaries.
A top divinity school (independent of denominational politics) can give an MDiv with credibility simply because the school's mission is not to generate the adoration of Holy Mother Synod. At independent schools the student can voice their own opinions without worrying about being ash-canned for one wrong comment, stuck with a pile of debt and no job prospects from it.
One year, when plagiarist John Johnson was president of Our Lady of Sorrows, St. Louis, two students had some contact with Pastor Herman Otten. Both of them were pushed out of the call process, with no appeal or make-up allowed. The men were not hair-on-fire radicals, just people who wanted to see both sides of an issue.
Bruce Church has made a good case for calling the LCMS system fraudulent and deceptive, a debt bubble ready to pop.
In St. Louis, how do you get rid of a recent Concordia graduate on your doorstep? Answer - give him a tip and take the pizza.
Many Lutheran schools will close or merge (a nice way to close) in the next few years.
Ba-zing.
