LPC has left a new comment on your post "Bored Scours the Popcornites And The Incensed":
Daniel,
Your comments reminds me when I was a Calvinist. In that circle, there is a debate on who really really is a true rightful claimant of the label "reformed".
Most of the time, people who claim they are confessional takes the moral high ground that they are "quia" subscribers.
I laugh because so far those I have encountered claiming "quia" subscription have been found to be UOJers.
I hope you are not a UOJer because technically that ain't Lutheran no matter how grand standing the UOJer does.
LPC
9 comments:
Everything you write reminds me when I was a pseudo-Lutheran, LPC, and yet I don't feel the need to bog down a lively debate with such ad hominem attacks.
To answer your challenges, no I do not subscribe to "Universal Objective Justification."
In any event, a person's lack of subscription to Universal Justification does not make them a de facto Lutheran, just as liturgical orthodoxy does not guarantee the same. Two wrongs do not make a right, as the adage goes.
Daniel.
I am wondering what ad hominem I threw at you, I was responding to your critique of Bored.
What is it about your pseudo-Lutheraness that you get reminded of?
Lastly, is the BoC Scripture?
LPC
A) Your assertion that my defense of liturgical orthodoxy sounds in some abstract way like your previous Calvinistic tendencies is the ad hominem to which I was referring. It is not relevant to the discussion, but is rather a baseless attack on my motives and/or character. Ditto your commentary regarding UOJ.
B) Your skirting around the legitimacy of the Book of Concord, your arguments against the importance of liturgical orthodoxy, and just overall crassness, to name a few.
C) No, but it is an accurate presentation and detailed analysis thereof.
I do not think you disagree with each other at all. I find the "quia" business dishonest in some people or synods. The Olde Syn Conference pretends to have a quia subscription but that is clearly not the case. Some European state churches did not accept the whole Book of Concord, just the Augsburg Confession. It was not a matter of rejecting the rest of the BOC, just a historical development.
Both of you are very astute about doctrine and worship. It is easy to generate misunderstandings when writing at a distance. Face to face we can quickly correct misapprehensions.
Flame not lest ye be flamed.
Daniel,
Consider this as more exercise on your apologetics or polemics. Calm down a bit. I thank Pr Greg for allowing this interchange, that shows this blog is becoming more mature and so unlike LQ. It shows unlike LQ Ichabod does not promote cult mentality.
Take what I am going to say as a light spar on apologetics/polemics. Try not to be defensive - we are discussing where we differ but may be over looking where we may be importantly the same.
Your point A. Ad hominem is when I call you names or labels but I never did that.It was the theme of conversation that has parallel to the "quest for the real Reformed/Calvinist that I was pointing out". It seems in Lutheranism there is also a glorious quest - "The Quest for the Real Confessional Lutheran".
I never called you a Calvinist and I do not believe you are, far from it. If there is anything I may have done, it is to do guilt by association or guilt by analogy. But see my point 2 below.
My points:
1.) To be a quia subscriber, one must be careful IMHO not to give the impression that the BoC is another canonical text added after The Revelation of John. Bored is correct, God has already reserved plagues for those who will do so - Rev 22:18.
The BoC to me is the ruled norm, but I do not go to it first off when I am in need Godly inspiration, I go to Scripture first. I do not read BoC regularly unlike I do with Scripture. Why? Because if it has taught me already something on the subject, I do not need to go to it again and again if I already know what it says about a Scripture text. However your new accusation shows that we seem to be not using the BoC the same way.
It is one thing to say that the BoC is not Scripture and another thing to treat it as such, extra-Biblical. The latter was what Bored was trying to come to grips with.
2.) I might be wrong but when I read your discussion with Bored, I seem to get the impression that you are the zealous fides difensor of Lutherdom. Well, I did not get the chance to cast my ballot. When was the election? So please calm down.
3.) The problem with war on the liturgy is which version should we be defending, can you please state so I do not misunderstand you? For example, version 600-700 AD now has the Agnus Dei, before that it was not there. Sure it was taken from Scripture but the record shows it was not there prior to 600AD. It did not picture in the bulletins used by the early church. SO now I ask, if the pastor does not have it, is he no longer confessing Lutheran? Or what if he adds the word "Jesus" to the Agnus Dei, like saying "Jesus, Lamb of God, have mercy on me", is he no longer orthodox Lutheran? Why or why not?
I do not go on liturgical wars, unlike you who do, because I consider the justification war not to have been won yet. Also my theory is that once justification is properly understood then the liturgy will be respected. However IMHO in the light of the present wars, the liturgical war is a distraction of the real issues - that of justification.
I use the word respected because some go beyond that - they venerate it not just respect it.
How many Lutherans today who went into liturgics are no longer Lutheran today? How many Lutherans who did not go into liturgics who are also not Lutheran today?
So it is not the doctrine of Liturgy, it is doctrine of Justification that is at stake. In both cases, that is the one that is lost in translation.
Lastly, I see a lot of so called "Confessional Lutherans" running around in the Internet. I am not sure if I like to be identified with them, despite their tenacious claim for the label.
Labels are the tools used by sophists and it is sophomoric.
It is the doctrine that matters to me,rather than the label.
LPC
Forgive me LPC, but I have lost the desire to discuss this matter further.
No worries Daniel. God be with you and guide you.
LPC
When people taken on Lito in chats, they don't know who they are really messing with!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwaVI2cVPNM
Bruce,
You found the real me. McCain has no match against my shooting skills. I wanna see him try what I did from up a tree.
He does not realise my awesomeness.
LPC
Post a Comment