FC Ep V has left a new comment on your post "WELS Martin Luther College - What They Hid from th...":
I get uncomfortable when worship and outreach are mentioned in the same context. The amount of Church and Changers listed is pure evidence of CGM not going away on the Synodical level -- especially when they use praise band type music in their chapel services (not to mention the addition of the new screen), especially on evangelism day.
I still recount when Koine came to play (lead worship) at evening chapel services. On a normal night the chapel would be pretty thin. But when Koine came the place was PACKED, I mean PACKED! If it's "all about the Word and not the music" like the Pietist WELSians claim, then why isn't the chapel packed during a "traditional" evening chapel?
"Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions...For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly [appetite - NIV1984], and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple." (Romans 16:17-19 NKJV)
Their "own appetite" is our desire to change things to our preferences -- including our worship forms that seem attractive (rapping worship, rock worship, oldies worship, etc.). It's attractive *because* it's worldly! But I submit that because it's worldly it suppresses the Gospel and hides the Gospel. Is that really what we want to be doing?
Doctrine and practice (worship) are linked despite how much the Pietist, WELS Lutherans whine that it isn't.
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GJ - Have real sermons and liturgical worship been tried and found wanting - or not tried at all?
I doubt whether most kiddies have experienced Lutheran worship in WELS, and they are not going to with the current academic and synodical leadership.
What does the college promote at every opportunity? NW Prep was doing the same thing under Mark Schroeder - CCM.
11 comments:
Muslims go on jihad on football field against a Lutheran HS football quarterback in Dearborn, Michigan:
Story:
http://www.pressandguide.com/articles/2012/01/14/news/doc4f10672d3e47d004412938.txt
Story and video:
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012/01/muslim-football-players-in-dearborn.html
Through hatred and false claims. This is the way of current blogging. Use a general comment which has absolutely no foundation. I have gone through MLC, I have worshiped there every day and night. I have listened to law and gospel every day, but yet you claim that most kids there don't experience Lutheran Worship. Are you there? Do you speak with those who preach there every day and night? do you listen to chapel pod casts?
Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura are preached. they are taught, they dominate our education.
It really sounds to me that you are making a law concerning worship, that you have the Lutheran Rule and everyone else is to follow.
But when it comes to Lutheran Worship, there is freedom within the man made Liturgies that we follow. If Koine plays and more people so be it, we have churches for the sick. The chapel doesn't schedule people to fill church but they schedule groups to enrich worship.
If I get Camp Phillip's praise band to enrich my worship service and more people come to that service, i am only convinced more that my people are sinners and i am the worst. What do you expect? that we will all be holy and blameless here on earth and we do all things for the right reasons? Do individuals tune into your webcast for the right reasons every sunday? i would be confident in saying no.
I chuckle at your vile and distaste for the WELS. You hope that the synod falls and is punished by God. You claim that we believe everyone is saved by God before their coming to faith. That is simply false and not taught at Seminary and is not taught in Luther's Catechism.
Your attacks on good men in the synod however is ill founded. I don't disagree with some of your findings, but with many of the men that you attack as Church and Changers and Church Growth guys etc. not all of them are what you say they are. I have spoken with them. I have worshiped at many of their churches. I would say as a pastor, I am do not appreciate empty songs, and fluffy blah sermons, and lovey dovey emotional experiences at church. If i have read enough of your stuff you always paint with a broad brush regarding all of these men. You are indeed wrong.
fight4God said:
"You claim that we believe everyone is saved by God before their coming to faith. That is simply false and not taught at Seminary and is not taught in Luther's Catechism."
You are correct that it is not taught in Luther's Catechism. But you might want to try to untangle this mess taught by Seminary professors and other Synod officials:
"God has declared all guilty sinners not guilty by his gracious, saving work in Christ Jesus." (Lines 172-173)
- Translation Evaluation Committee; Pastor John A. Braun (NPH), Professor Kenneth A Cherney Jr. (WLS) Professor Thomas P. Nass (MLC) Pastor Joel V. Petermann (District President, MLC President-elect); Professor Paul O. Wendland (WLS President)
http://www.wels.net/sites/wels/files/BORAM2011_supplemental_translationevaluationcommittee.pdf
"The astonishing reality is that God has forgiven the sins of the whole world, whether people believe it or not." - Forward in Christ, October 2011. Forrest Bivens, (WLS)
At best these men are muddled in their understanding and teaching of justification by faith alone. At worst, they are teaching a false gospel.
John the Baptist says Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World. John the Baptist did not say, will take away your sin. The verb used is present.
Besides this, Jesus tells us that God sent his Son out of love for the whole world.
I don't disagree with you that one must believe in order to be saved. there isn't a single person in our synod that would dispute that. No one is saying that everyone is saved whether they like it or not, nor are they saying that all people are going to heaven whether they like it or not. what they are saying is that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the sins of the whole world whether the whole world likes it or not. But if you believe in him then you have eternal life.
i don't see any confusion there. and when i talk with my old professors they too see nothing wrong here.
These men aren't muddled in their understanding of justification, they understand it correctly. their writing may, to the weak brother, seem incorrect. Scripture shows though that they are right.
There are little buttons on the left and right of you keyboard entitled "Shift". Please use them to make capital letters.
fight4God,
Take some time to read through the posts on this site re UOJ. Then/or compare and contrast what Bivens said...
"The astonishing reality is that God has forgiven the sins of the whole world, whether people believe it or not." - Forward in Christ, October 2011. Forrest Bivens
...with what Luther said:
"If I now seek the forgiveness of sins, I do not run to the cross, for I will not find it given there. Nor must I hold to the suffering of Christ as Dr. Karlstadt trifles, in knowledge or remembrance, for I will not find it there either. But I will find in the sacrament or the gospel the word which distributes, presents, offers, and gives to me that forgiveness which was won on the cross" ("Against the Heavenly Prophets" AE 40:214).
I'll stick with Luther. He wasn't an Enthusiast.
fight4God said,
"No one is saying that everyone is saved whether they like it or not,..."
AZ/CA District President Jon Buchholz is:
In contrast to the “Jesus Saves”
churches, we don’t preach a salvation that is incomplete and just waiting for the sinner to do something to complete the transaction. We proclaim boldly, “Jesus Saved,” past tense, finished, certain."
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/BuchholzJustification.pdf
Whoops! See, even I miss every now and them. It should be "of your keyboard".
Now I hang my head! Should be "and then".
Don't beat yourself up, Adolph. That's my job.
"what they are saying is that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the sins of the whole world whether the whole world likes it or not. But if you believe in him then you have eternal life."
OMG...
No, this is NOT what they are saying!!!
Pastor Patterson preached in January of 2011 that all were forgiven before they were born. We challenged him on this. Patterson never denied our accusations, but merely repeated typical and ambiguous WELS speak. Patterson, the elders, the congregation of Holy Word and the South Central DP Glaeske excommunicated us because we denied that a sinner had the imputation of forgiveness prior to faith!
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