http://www.intrepidlutherans.com/2013/11/the-lutheran-understanding-of-2.html#comment-form
Gary,
I've been giving your question(s) some thought, and I don't think I can give a "yes" or "no" answer. Striving again to keep it simple, I see the theology of the confessional Lutheran, including our salvation/justification, as being consistent with the "theology of the cross". By that I mean that true confessional Lutheranism, consistent with Scripture, is not about us. It's not about what we do or how we feel. It's about what God has done for use. God has created us, He has redeemed us and He sanctifies us through the means of grace. This seems to be the main point of your question. In that regard, I really like Brett's statement about every aspect of our jusification being objective in the sense that it is entirely the work of God. This is one of the few cases of the use of the word "objective" that I have heard over the past few years that I would say fits quite well with Scripture.
Vernon
I've been giving your question(s) some thought, and I don't think I can give a "yes" or "no" answer. Striving again to keep it simple, I see the theology of the confessional Lutheran, including our salvation/justification, as being consistent with the "theology of the cross". By that I mean that true confessional Lutheranism, consistent with Scripture, is not about us. It's not about what we do or how we feel. It's about what God has done for use. God has created us, He has redeemed us and He sanctifies us through the means of grace. This seems to be the main point of your question. In that regard, I really like Brett's statement about every aspect of our jusification being objective in the sense that it is entirely the work of God. This is one of the few cases of the use of the word "objective" that I have heard over the past few years that I would say fits quite well with Scripture.
Vernon
I agree with Brett's statement that salvation is all God, that it does not involve us, but isn't that the exact same thing I said in my previous statement?
Faith is a gift from God. The sinner does nothing to produce it or earn it. The moment of salvation occurs when God chooses to quicken the dead soul of the sinner by the power of his Word at the moment of Baptism or by the preaching of the Word. That is the moment that the sinner is "gifted" faith. The sinner is NOT saved (receives the promise of eternal life) until God chooses to give him faith. The fact that Christ has already paid the penalty for all his sins does the sinner no good until God chooses to give him faith in (the majority of instances) his Baptism. The LCMS and WELS do not deny faith is needed for salvation, but it is not man's faith, it is God's. "For by grace are you saved, through faith..."
I have never heard a "UOJ" pastor preach that the sinner produces faith in order to be saved or that because the sinner is already "objectively justified" by Christ's death on the cross, that he is already saved, without Baptism or without the power of the preaching of the Word saving him.
Am I missing something?
Faith is a gift from God. The sinner does nothing to produce it or earn it. The moment of salvation occurs when God chooses to quicken the dead soul of the sinner by the power of his Word at the moment of Baptism or by the preaching of the Word. That is the moment that the sinner is "gifted" faith. The sinner is NOT saved (receives the promise of eternal life) until God chooses to give him faith. The fact that Christ has already paid the penalty for all his sins does the sinner no good until God chooses to give him faith in (the majority of instances) his Baptism. The LCMS and WELS do not deny faith is needed for salvation, but it is not man's faith, it is God's. "For by grace are you saved, through faith..."
I have never heard a "UOJ" pastor preach that the sinner produces faith in order to be saved or that because the sinner is already "objectively justified" by Christ's death on the cross, that he is already saved, without Baptism or without the power of the preaching of the Word saving him.
Am I missing something?
Gary, my quote from Martin Luther was in response to your statement, "When Martin Luther spoke of being justified by faith, he was not talking about an evangelical "born again" experience... What Luther meant is that the just, the saved, shall live by faith, they do not need to live a life of fear that they must frantically do good works to assist in their justification, to decrease their torment in Purgatory"
Whether you agree with him or not, what he clearly meant by men being justified by faith is that faith in Christ alone is our sole justifier. In fact he clearly condemns the doctrine of UOJ because the doctrine of UOJ teaches that faith is nothing (and definitely not the righteousness of Christ) but an empty hand receiving what is already declared to be true - UOJ's object of faith is a declaration of justification which supposedly came before and without faith, without the Means of Grace and without the Holy Spirit working through either. UOJ's faith is the false faith Martin Luther speaks of when he states, "To accept as true the record of Christ--this they call faith. The devils have the same sort of faith, but it does not make them godly. Such belief is not Christian faith; no, it is rather deception."
Luther's statements are Scripturally sound and faithful to the Christian Book of Concord. It would help if you would detail what you reject about Luther's statements that I posted.
Regarding your statements at 11:05AM - We all understand that UOJ teaches salvation is by faith alone.
What is under contention is that Scripture and the BOC teach that an individual is only acceptable to God the Father through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone.
That the forgiveness of sins is by faith alone so that it might be by grace alone. Romans 4:16
That an individual is only declared/considered righteous by God the Father solely through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone.
That an individual is only reconciled to God the Father solely through the gracious gift of faith alone.
That God's wrath and condemnation over man's sin abides, remains, on everyone who doesn't have faith in Christ alone.
That God is not double minded as UOJ teaches where He is at the same time reconciled to the unbelieving world (UOJ teaches this is also true for believers) while they are under His abiding wrath and condemnation.
That the forgiveness of sins is Life and Salvation. UOJ separates the two in contradiction to God's Word.Romans 5:17-18 where 'justification of life' and 'reign in Life' is eternal salvation.
You state, "
WELS DP Jon Buchholz and lead pike in the WELS war on Justification solely by faith alone stated, "The forgiveness acquired by Jesus for all at the cross gives us confessional Lutherans, among all the church bodies of the world, the highest motivation to share our Savior. In contrast to the “Jesus Saves” churches, we don’t preach a salvation that is incomplete and just waiting for the sinner to do something to complete the transaction. We proclaim boldly, “Jesus Saved,” past tense, finished, certain." Page 23
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/BuchholzJustification1.pdf
Whether you agree with him or not, what he clearly meant by men being justified by faith is that faith in Christ alone is our sole justifier. In fact he clearly condemns the doctrine of UOJ because the doctrine of UOJ teaches that faith is nothing (and definitely not the righteousness of Christ) but an empty hand receiving what is already declared to be true - UOJ's object of faith is a declaration of justification which supposedly came before and without faith, without the Means of Grace and without the Holy Spirit working through either. UOJ's faith is the false faith Martin Luther speaks of when he states, "To accept as true the record of Christ--this they call faith. The devils have the same sort of faith, but it does not make them godly. Such belief is not Christian faith; no, it is rather deception."
Luther's statements are Scripturally sound and faithful to the Christian Book of Concord. It would help if you would detail what you reject about Luther's statements that I posted.
Regarding your statements at 11:05AM - We all understand that UOJ teaches salvation is by faith alone.
What is under contention is that Scripture and the BOC teach that an individual is only acceptable to God the Father through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone.
That the forgiveness of sins is by faith alone so that it might be by grace alone. Romans 4:16
That an individual is only declared/considered righteous by God the Father solely through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone.
That an individual is only reconciled to God the Father solely through the gracious gift of faith alone.
That God's wrath and condemnation over man's sin abides, remains, on everyone who doesn't have faith in Christ alone.
That God is not double minded as UOJ teaches where He is at the same time reconciled to the unbelieving world (UOJ teaches this is also true for believers) while they are under His abiding wrath and condemnation.
That the forgiveness of sins is Life and Salvation. UOJ separates the two in contradiction to God's Word.Romans 5:17-18 where 'justification of life' and 'reign in Life' is eternal salvation.
You state, "
WELS DP Jon Buchholz and lead pike in the WELS war on Justification solely by faith alone stated, "The forgiveness acquired by Jesus for all at the cross gives us confessional Lutherans, among all the church bodies of the world, the highest motivation to share our Savior. In contrast to the “Jesus Saves” churches, we don’t preach a salvation that is incomplete and just waiting for the sinner to do something to complete the transaction. We proclaim boldly, “Jesus Saved,” past tense, finished, certain." Page 23
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/BuchholzJustification1.pdf
If Brett's statement above is meant to say that Luther believed that "Catholics" were, and are not today, saved, then the Church ceased to exist sometime shortly after Nicea up until October 31, 1517. That sounds a lot like the fundamentalist Baptists who state that the Church disappeared after the last apostle died and reappeared with the first Baptist, John Smith.
So much for the "Gates of Hell" not prevailing against Christ's Church.
So much for the "Gates of Hell" not prevailing against Christ's Church.
Sorry, got ahead of myself. I meant to include your quote.
You state, "I have never heard a "UOJ" pastor preach that the sinner produces faith in order to be saved or that because the sinner is already "objectively justified" by Christ's death on the cross, that he is already saved, without Baptism or without the power of the preaching of the Word saving him."
WELS DP Jon Buchholz.......
You state, "I have never heard a "UOJ" pastor preach that the sinner produces faith in order to be saved or that because the sinner is already "objectively justified" by Christ's death on the cross, that he is already saved, without Baptism or without the power of the preaching of the Word saving him."
WELS DP Jon Buchholz.......
Gary, do you believe that a Roman Catholic who is 100% faithful to the official teachings of the Catholic Church is a Christian and saved?
Please elaborate on your answer. Thank you.
Please elaborate on your answer. Thank you.
Response to Brett's 11:05 statement:
Correct me if I am wrong, Brett, but it sounds like you are saying that the sinner must produce faith to be saved. That sounds awfully synergistic.
We receive God's gift of grace, through HIS gift of faith. God "gifts" you faith to receive his grace (his gift of the forgiveness of sins and eternal life." The sinner does not produce his own faith to receive God's grace. That was what I was taught as a fundamentalist Baptist and evangelical growing up. These groups refuse to believe that God saves infants in Holy Baptism because they believe that an infant cannot believe, because an infant cannot make a decision to have faith and accept God's "free gift" of salvation. However, by requiring the sinner to make a decision, and requiring that the sinner possess sufficient intelligence and maturity to understand the concept of "how to have faith", which is the same as saying, "how to produce faith out of my own abilities", that is not a free gift, that is a transaction. I bring my faith to the salvation transaction table and God brings forgiveness and eternal life, we agree to do a trade, and WA-LA, I am now saved by (my) faith!
THAT is Synergism, and is NOT Lutheran!
You sound like you are saying the same thing as the Baptists and evangelicals, Brett. I sincerely hope that I am misunderstanding you, brother.
Correct me if I am wrong, Brett, but it sounds like you are saying that the sinner must produce faith to be saved. That sounds awfully synergistic.
We receive God's gift of grace, through HIS gift of faith. God "gifts" you faith to receive his grace (his gift of the forgiveness of sins and eternal life." The sinner does not produce his own faith to receive God's grace. That was what I was taught as a fundamentalist Baptist and evangelical growing up. These groups refuse to believe that God saves infants in Holy Baptism because they believe that an infant cannot believe, because an infant cannot make a decision to have faith and accept God's "free gift" of salvation. However, by requiring the sinner to make a decision, and requiring that the sinner possess sufficient intelligence and maturity to understand the concept of "how to have faith", which is the same as saying, "how to produce faith out of my own abilities", that is not a free gift, that is a transaction. I bring my faith to the salvation transaction table and God brings forgiveness and eternal life, we agree to do a trade, and WA-LA, I am now saved by (my) faith!
THAT is Synergism, and is NOT Lutheran!
You sound like you are saying the same thing as the Baptists and evangelicals, Brett. I sincerely hope that I am misunderstanding you, brother.
Gary please elaborate - what exactly did I say that sounded like "the sinner must produce faith to be saved (forgiven)"?
Also, could you respond to my 1:14pm question as it was in response to your statements directed at my confession. Thanks.
Also, could you respond to my 1:14pm question as it was in response to your statements directed at my confession. Thanks.
"In contrast to the “Jesus Saves” churches, we don’t preach a salvation that is incomplete and just waiting for the sinner to do something to complete the transaction. We proclaim boldly, “Jesus Saved,” past tense, finished, certain."
I don't have all the context to Pastor Buchholz' comments but if he was saying that everyone in the world is saved because Christ "saved everyone" on the cross, or that all the Elect are BORN saved, then he is dead wrong. He is teaching, with the former, universalism, and with the latter, a form of Calvinism.
I highly doubt that either interpretation is what he meant.
My guess is that what he meant was this: Your redemption, your "ticket" to heaven, has already been purchased by Jesus Christ in his death on the cross and by his resurrection. YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANY WORK TO BE SAVED! This free gift from God is yours. It is not a reward for good deeds or good behavior. It is free! All that is necessary to receive the benefits of this free gift is this: Believe/Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
When someone gives you a free gift, when is it yours? Is it yours... only after YOU make a decision that you want it, and then reach out and take it? No. If you refuse to reach out for it, the giver gives it to someone else or takes it back to the store??
No! The free gift if yours the very second that your Father decided he wanted to give it to you! It is yours without your decision. It is yours without you reaching out for it. It is your gift, regardless of anything that you do or don't do.
But if after your Heavenly Father places your gift in your lap, you throw it on the floor, and walk away from him...you will fail to receive any benefit from his gift...and will perish in hell. But it was yours, not because YOU decided to accept it by faith, but because your Father willed it to by yours.
Faith, given to you by God, receives grace. "Previent" grace does not produce faith. That is Arminianism. That is Synergism. That is not Lutheran.
I don't have all the context to Pastor Buchholz' comments but if he was saying that everyone in the world is saved because Christ "saved everyone" on the cross, or that all the Elect are BORN saved, then he is dead wrong. He is teaching, with the former, universalism, and with the latter, a form of Calvinism.
I highly doubt that either interpretation is what he meant.
My guess is that what he meant was this: Your redemption, your "ticket" to heaven, has already been purchased by Jesus Christ in his death on the cross and by his resurrection. YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANY WORK TO BE SAVED! This free gift from God is yours. It is not a reward for good deeds or good behavior. It is free! All that is necessary to receive the benefits of this free gift is this: Believe/Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
When someone gives you a free gift, when is it yours? Is it yours... only after YOU make a decision that you want it, and then reach out and take it? No. If you refuse to reach out for it, the giver gives it to someone else or takes it back to the store??
No! The free gift if yours the very second that your Father decided he wanted to give it to you! It is yours without your decision. It is yours without you reaching out for it. It is your gift, regardless of anything that you do or don't do.
But if after your Heavenly Father places your gift in your lap, you throw it on the floor, and walk away from him...you will fail to receive any benefit from his gift...and will perish in hell. But it was yours, not because YOU decided to accept it by faith, but because your Father willed it to by yours.
Faith, given to you by God, receives grace. "Previent" grace does not produce faith. That is Arminianism. That is Synergism. That is not Lutheran.
Gary, allow me to briefly address your statements.
”All that is necessary to receive the benefits of this free gift is this: Believe/Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins”
According to the doctrine of UOJ, which you defend, the individual already had his sins forgiven before he was baptized. Why do you then repeat “and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins”? UOJ makes baptism nonsensical.
“No! The free gift if yours the very second that your Father decided he wanted to give it to you! It is yours without your decision. It is yours without you reaching out for it. It is your gift, regardless of anything that you do or don't do.”
The doctrine of UOJ teaches God divinely declared out of His omnipotent will that the whole unbelieving world has had their sins removed, debt eliminated by the merits of Christ and therefore He declared them justified, righteous and worthy of eternal life. Since it is their own ‘regardless of anything you do or don’t do’ they are saved.
”But if after your Heavenly Father places your gift in your lap, you throw it on the floor, and walk away from him...you will fail to receive any benefit from his gift...and will perish in hell. But it was yours, not because YOU decided to accept it by faith, but because your Father willed it to by yours.”
So you’re saying if an individual doesn’t throw God’s gift on the floor they will benefit from Christ’s righteousness and justification which He gave them – they will be saved eternally. Also when you make the bolded statement you are confessing that faith is a work of man and that the forgiveness of sins and salvation are available without faith in Christ.
”Faith, given to you by God, receives grace.”
Your statement is a bit jumbled and it’s due to the doctrine of UOJ which separates Grace and Faith. UOJ teaches men are justified by grace alone – no faith. UOJ teaches men are saved by faith in their preceding justification. By this teaching UOJ rejects Scriptural justification and God’s Will and Word when in Romans 4:16God declares, “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,”
Also, and again, please elaborate - what exactly did I say in my 12:17pm comment that sounded like "the sinner must produce faith to be saved (forgiven)"?
Also, could you respond to my 1:14pm question as it was in response to your statements directed at my confession.
Thanks.
”All that is necessary to receive the benefits of this free gift is this: Believe/Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins”
According to the doctrine of UOJ, which you defend, the individual already had his sins forgiven before he was baptized. Why do you then repeat “and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins”? UOJ makes baptism nonsensical.
“No! The free gift if yours the very second that your Father decided he wanted to give it to you! It is yours without your decision. It is yours without you reaching out for it. It is your gift, regardless of anything that you do or don't do.”
The doctrine of UOJ teaches God divinely declared out of His omnipotent will that the whole unbelieving world has had their sins removed, debt eliminated by the merits of Christ and therefore He declared them justified, righteous and worthy of eternal life. Since it is their own ‘regardless of anything you do or don’t do’ they are saved.
”But if after your Heavenly Father places your gift in your lap, you throw it on the floor, and walk away from him...you will fail to receive any benefit from his gift...and will perish in hell. But it was yours, not because YOU decided to accept it by faith, but because your Father willed it to by yours.”
So you’re saying if an individual doesn’t throw God’s gift on the floor they will benefit from Christ’s righteousness and justification which He gave them – they will be saved eternally. Also when you make the bolded statement you are confessing that faith is a work of man and that the forgiveness of sins and salvation are available without faith in Christ.
”Faith, given to you by God, receives grace.”
Your statement is a bit jumbled and it’s due to the doctrine of UOJ which separates Grace and Faith. UOJ teaches men are justified by grace alone – no faith. UOJ teaches men are saved by faith in their preceding justification. By this teaching UOJ rejects Scriptural justification and God’s Will and Word when in Romans 4:16God declares, “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,”
Also, and again, please elaborate - what exactly did I say in my 12:17pm comment that sounded like "the sinner must produce faith to be saved (forgiven)"?
Also, could you respond to my 1:14pm question as it was in response to your statements directed at my confession.
Thanks.
Brett said "So you’re saying if an individual doesn’t throw God’s gift on the floor they will benefit from Christ’s righteousness and justification which He gave them – they will be saved eternally."
No, I'm not saying that. If I believed that I would be Baptist.
What I'm saying is that the sinner has zero ability to choose righteous, to choose or produce faith, or to choose God. They cannot choose any of these things because sinners do NOT have a free will in spiritual matters. Believers/Christian DO have a free will in spiritual matters.
After the free gift of salvation is mine, by God's grace alone, received through his gift of faith alone, I as a Christian can abandon, out-right reject, or neglect my faith and perish in hell for all eternity.
Lutherans do not believe in "eternal security" otherwise known as "once saved, always saved".
No, I'm not saying that. If I believed that I would be Baptist.
What I'm saying is that the sinner has zero ability to choose righteous, to choose or produce faith, or to choose God. They cannot choose any of these things because sinners do NOT have a free will in spiritual matters. Believers/Christian DO have a free will in spiritual matters.
After the free gift of salvation is mine, by God's grace alone, received through his gift of faith alone, I as a Christian can abandon, out-right reject, or neglect my faith and perish in hell for all eternity.
Lutherans do not believe in "eternal security" otherwise known as "once saved, always saved".
I will answer your question regarding Roman Catholics with this preface: As I said in a previous comment, I grew up fundamentalist Baptist. I was taught that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the following people to get into to heaven; to be truly saved:
--people who believe that salvation occurs at the time of Baptism
--people who cannot recall a specific day when they prayed a version of the Sinner's Prayer in which they asked Jesus into their hearts, repented of all sins, and promised to live a life pleasing to God.
-anyone who does not believe in "eternal security".
So what they were teaching in a nutshell was this: What you believe determines whether or not God will save you. That is the epitome of Synergism!
I believe that God commands us to baptize all nations: senior citizens, middle aged adults, young people, teenagers, children and infants. I don't find anywhere in Scripture where Christ or his apostles gave a "Doctrine Test" prior to baptism. I believe that anyone wanting to come to the waters of Baptism, should be baptized, without needing to pass screening tests. If the priest/pastor is a corrupt servant, that does not effect the validity of your Baptism. If you didn't have all the correct doctrinal beliefs at the time of your Baptism, that does not effect the validity of your Baptism. Even if you came to the font under false pretenses (you just wanted to have an "in" with the pretty Lutheran girls in the church), that doesn't effect the validity of your Baptism. Unlike the Baptists, we would not re-baptize that person after they admitted their previous false profession of faith and now made a seemingly genuine profession. Why wouldn't we Lutherans re-baptize this "faker"? We wouldn't re-baptize this man because salvation is not dependent on sinners, their beliefs, or their decisions. Salvation is all God. God says he saves when the Word is spoken and water is applied, so we must believe him and accept the validity of all Trinitarian baptisms.
So what about the Roman Catholics?
Rome does not teach that one must pay money to the Church, climb 20 flights of stairs, or perform so many good deeds before God will save you in Holy Baptism. They teach that God saves by his grace in Holy Baptism, received through faith. Where they go wrong is in their use of the word "justification". They teach that AFTER God saves you in Baptism, you as a believer must do good deeds to complete your "justification". Unfortunately most Protestants take that to mean "complete your salvation". The RCC does NOT teach that if you don't do enough good deeds you will go to hell. What they teach is that you must do good deeds to pay the temporal punishment for sins committed after Baptism. Any of these sins for which you have not made "satisfaction" must be "satisfied" after your death by purification in the fires of Purgatory.
The only way a believer loses his salvation and goes to hell when he dies is the same as for Lutherans: by a rejection, abandonment, or neglect of his faith manifested by mortal sins.
I believe that what a Roman Catholic "believes" regarding his justification plays no role in hindering the effectiveness of Baptism. Why? Because God's Word says he saves in Baptism. It doesn't say that he only saves in Baptism if the sinner believes the correct doctrine...or is old enough or mature enough to make a decision to have faith.
Faith is a gift from God. Sinners do not produce faith. If you believe that they do, you are an Arminian.
--people who believe that salvation occurs at the time of Baptism
--people who cannot recall a specific day when they prayed a version of the Sinner's Prayer in which they asked Jesus into their hearts, repented of all sins, and promised to live a life pleasing to God.
-anyone who does not believe in "eternal security".
So what they were teaching in a nutshell was this: What you believe determines whether or not God will save you. That is the epitome of Synergism!
I believe that God commands us to baptize all nations: senior citizens, middle aged adults, young people, teenagers, children and infants. I don't find anywhere in Scripture where Christ or his apostles gave a "Doctrine Test" prior to baptism. I believe that anyone wanting to come to the waters of Baptism, should be baptized, without needing to pass screening tests. If the priest/pastor is a corrupt servant, that does not effect the validity of your Baptism. If you didn't have all the correct doctrinal beliefs at the time of your Baptism, that does not effect the validity of your Baptism. Even if you came to the font under false pretenses (you just wanted to have an "in" with the pretty Lutheran girls in the church), that doesn't effect the validity of your Baptism. Unlike the Baptists, we would not re-baptize that person after they admitted their previous false profession of faith and now made a seemingly genuine profession. Why wouldn't we Lutherans re-baptize this "faker"? We wouldn't re-baptize this man because salvation is not dependent on sinners, their beliefs, or their decisions. Salvation is all God. God says he saves when the Word is spoken and water is applied, so we must believe him and accept the validity of all Trinitarian baptisms.
So what about the Roman Catholics?
Rome does not teach that one must pay money to the Church, climb 20 flights of stairs, or perform so many good deeds before God will save you in Holy Baptism. They teach that God saves by his grace in Holy Baptism, received through faith. Where they go wrong is in their use of the word "justification". They teach that AFTER God saves you in Baptism, you as a believer must do good deeds to complete your "justification". Unfortunately most Protestants take that to mean "complete your salvation". The RCC does NOT teach that if you don't do enough good deeds you will go to hell. What they teach is that you must do good deeds to pay the temporal punishment for sins committed after Baptism. Any of these sins for which you have not made "satisfaction" must be "satisfied" after your death by purification in the fires of Purgatory.
The only way a believer loses his salvation and goes to hell when he dies is the same as for Lutherans: by a rejection, abandonment, or neglect of his faith manifested by mortal sins.
I believe that what a Roman Catholic "believes" regarding his justification plays no role in hindering the effectiveness of Baptism. Why? Because God's Word says he saves in Baptism. It doesn't say that he only saves in Baptism if the sinner believes the correct doctrine...or is old enough or mature enough to make a decision to have faith.
Faith is a gift from God. Sinners do not produce faith. If you believe that they do, you are an Arminian.
I believe that a Trinitarian-baptized Roman Catholic is saved, just like every other sinner, due to God's gifting him eternal life in Holy Baptism. I believe that this same Roman Catholic will remain saved as long as he believes in Christ as his Savior and God and genuinely repents regularly of his sins. Whether he understands that his believing and repenting are based on a concept called "faith", is irrelevant. Jesus said that little children are members of the Kingdom of God and that adults should have the faith of these same children. Ask your five year old to explain the concept of "faith" to you. I doubt he will pass the Beliefs Test. Then ask your child if he believes in and loves Jesus, you will most likely receive a very simple answer: Yes! I believe!
Any person who trusts in his infant baptism alone to get him into heaven...may wake us one day to a rude shock...the flames of hell!
Any person who trusts in his infant baptism alone to get him into heaven...may wake us one day to a rude shock...the flames of hell!
Gary, thank you for your responses.
Amoung others of your statements, these stand out for me:
"So what they were teaching in a nutshell was this: What you believe determines whether or not God will save you. That is the epitome of Synergism!"
"The only way a believer loses his salvation and goes to hell when he dies is the same as for Lutherans: by a rejection, abandonment, or neglect of his faith manifested by mortal sins.
I believe that what a Roman Catholic "believes" regarding his justification plays no role in hindering the effectiveness of Baptism. Why? Because God's Word says he saves in Baptism. It doesn't say that he only saves in Baptism if the sinner believes the correct doctrine..."
I disagree with you. What is believed is a direct reflection of what is in your heart and therefore a direct reflection of what your faith rests upon. If a man's faith rests solely on Christ and Him crucified then that faith is a gracious gift from the Holy Spirit having been worked through Word and Sacrament. If it rests upon anything else than that faith is from man and by it's trust in something other than Christ alone it is condemned. False faith, faith that rests in a false declaration of justification that happened without faith in Christ alone, or rests in anything but Christ alone is a rejection of the baptism that the person may have received (assuming a baptism rightly administered). The following Scripture verses confirm.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
I appreciate your articulation of this particular confession/belief because it does explain why so many downplay the eternal conflict between UOJ and JBFA. I wonder how many more people in the Lutheran Synods have this same belief.
Amoung others of your statements, these stand out for me:
"So what they were teaching in a nutshell was this: What you believe determines whether or not God will save you. That is the epitome of Synergism!"
"The only way a believer loses his salvation and goes to hell when he dies is the same as for Lutherans: by a rejection, abandonment, or neglect of his faith manifested by mortal sins.
I believe that what a Roman Catholic "believes" regarding his justification plays no role in hindering the effectiveness of Baptism. Why? Because God's Word says he saves in Baptism. It doesn't say that he only saves in Baptism if the sinner believes the correct doctrine..."
I disagree with you. What is believed is a direct reflection of what is in your heart and therefore a direct reflection of what your faith rests upon. If a man's faith rests solely on Christ and Him crucified then that faith is a gracious gift from the Holy Spirit having been worked through Word and Sacrament. If it rests upon anything else than that faith is from man and by it's trust in something other than Christ alone it is condemned. False faith, faith that rests in a false declaration of justification that happened without faith in Christ alone, or rests in anything but Christ alone is a rejection of the baptism that the person may have received (assuming a baptism rightly administered). The following Scripture verses confirm.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
I appreciate your articulation of this particular confession/belief because it does explain why so many downplay the eternal conflict between UOJ and JBFA. I wonder how many more people in the Lutheran Synods have this same belief.
