     Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 94 Registered: 1-2008 |
Rev. Boisclair states, “Those who deny Objective Justification leave the door open for doubt as they make Justification happen IN us, not outside us (extra nos).” The BOC states, “13] For faith justifies, not for this cause and reason that it is so good a work and so fair a virtue, but because it lays hold of and accepts the merit of Christ in the promise of the holy Gospel; for this must be applied and appropriated to us by faith, if we are to be justified thereby.” http://www.bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.php The Concordists in harmony with Scripture clearly state that the merit of Christ (which your doctrine of UOJ says has justified the whole unbelieving world in God’s sight) must be applied and appropriated to us by faith if we are to be justified by it. The false gospel of UOJ teaches that the whole unbelieving world was justified objectively through Christ’s merits before and without the Means of Grace working Godly contrition and faith in Christ alone. Rev. Boisclair states, “Brett, Brett, you are 100% right in saying that the only way for a damned sinner like me to be saved is through faith.” No, Rev. Boisclair, I confess that the only way for an individual to be justified – forgiven all sin – is to be called by God to faith in Christ alone solely through the Means of Grace. I also confess in opposition to the false gospel of UOJ that justification is by faith alone so that it might be by grace alone and therefore the forgiveness of sins is eternal salvation. The BOC states, “For this reason, then, His obedience, not only in suffering and dying, but also in this, that He in our stead was voluntarily made under the Law, and fulfilled it by this obedience, is imputed to us for righteousness, so that, on account of this complete obedience, which He rendered His heavenly Father for us, by doing and suffering, in living and dying, God forgives our sins, regards us as godly and righteous, and eternally saves us. 16] This righteousness is offered us by the Holy Ghost through the Gospel and in the Sacraments, and is applied, appropriated, and received through faith, whence believers have reconciliation with God, forgiveness of sins, the grace of God sonship, and heirship of eternal life.” http://www.bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.php Scripture, Romans 4:16, “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,” UOJists deceive the laity by claiming the three solas but deny it in confession of the doctrine of UOJ. UOJ teaches that God has forgiven the whole unbelieving world by grace alone – not by faith. And that God saves by faith alone but faith is nothing but an open and empty hand. In fact…. D. Jerome Klotz confirms this when he states, “Because faith is not a power in us, but is the trustworthiness of the promise received and impressed upon us. I.e. faith is the purely passive recipient of Christ's righteousness.” In response to UOJ and Mr. Klotz the BOC declares, “Hence they say nothing concerning faith, by which Paul so frequently says that men are justified, because those who are accounted righteous before God do not live in mortal sin.” BOC - What Is Justifying Faith. And here, “ 71] "but we maintain this, that properly and truly, by faith itself, we are for Christ's sake accounted righteous, or are acceptable to God. And because "to be justified" means that out of unjust men just men are made, or born again, it means also that they are pronounced or accounted just. For Scripture speaks in both ways. [The term "to be justified" is used in two ways: to denote, being converted or regenerated; again, being accounted righteous. Accordingly we wish first to show this, that faith alone makes of an unjust, a just man, i.e., receives remission of sins".http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php UOJ teaches that the whole unbelieving world was accounted righteous by God through the merits of Christ. The BOC in harmony with Scripture teaches it is solely by faith in Christ alone that men are accounted righteous and acceptable to God. UOJ teaches the grace of God and merit of Christ make the unbelieving world justified by God’s divine verdict. The BOC in harmony with Scripture teaches that the gracious gift of faith alone make of an unjust man a just man. Franz states, “How can Scripture contend against my statements when my statements are Scripture? The Scriptures are clear, however, that Christ takes away the sin of the world” John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! You didn’t quote John 8:24, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” So much for UOJ’s teaching that God removed the unbelieving world’s sins from them. John 1:29 teaches Christ’s payment for the world’s sins, the atonement, which is not synonymous with Justification. and that He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. You didn’t quote Romans 3:25, “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” Christ is apprehended as man’s propitiation through faith alone – not outside of the Means of Grace working faith as the doctrine of UOJ falsely claims. They are equally clear that God has justified all who sinned by His grace Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, In violation of Revelation 22:18-19 you have added your rationalistic ‘all’ to verse 24. You also fail to quote John 3:18, “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” So before your universal justification took place on the cross the unbeliever was condemned already. and that God was, in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; (19) that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. You fail to clarify that God was, in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself through the Means of Grace which is the Ministry of Reconciliation which my BOC quotes in my initial comment above declare is only through faith in Christ – obtaining Christ as Mediator and Propitiation through faith alone. The entire Christian Book of Concord and Scripture itself stands as a testament against the false gospel of Universal Objective Justification. | ||
| Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1786 Registered: 12-2004 |
Mr. Meyer, I didn't cite those passages because those passages don't prove universal objective justification. That doesn't mean that they disprove universal objective justification. This is the giant hole in your logic. In violation of Revelation 22:18-19 you have added your rationalistic ‘all’ to verse 24. This is as silly a statement as I have ever read on this subject. We don't do theology by ignoring the rules of grammar. God chose to communicate to men through human language. Human language has rules. So, when the Holy Spirit says through Paul's pen, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," the rules of grammar tells me who the ones are that are justified. If "are justified" does not refer to "all," it has no antecedent and the sentence is incomprehensible. For that matter, who are the ones who "fall short of the glory of God"? Remember, verse numbers aren't inspired. Just because that phrase falls in verse 23 doesn't mean that the "all" is necessarily its antecedent. It's antecedent is dictated by the rules of grammar. Those same rules dictate the antecedent of "are justified," which is "all." For you to say I am violating Revelation 22:18-19 by rationalitcally adding "all" to verse 24 shows the lengths to which you deniers of universal objective justification will go. I haven't added an "all" to verse 24. I simply let the rules of grammar apply. This is proper biblical hermenuetics. If we don't follow the rules of grammar then we can't possibly have any truth whatsoever. You fail to clarify that God was, in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself through the Means of Grace which is the Ministry of Reconciliation which my BOC quotes in my initial comment above declare is only through faith in Christ – obtaining Christ as Mediator and Propitiation through faith alone. God wasn't reconciling the world to Himself through the Means of Grace. God was reconciling the world to Himself through Christ, which reconciliation is delivered to us through the Means of Grace. We aren't saved because Christ preached the Gospel, but because Christ carried out the Gospel through His crucifixion and resurection. Your paradigm makes the cross unnecessary. Besides that, it misses the point. Even if Christ reconciled the world to God through the Means of Grace, the world is still reconciled. That's what the words say. Your silly insistance that the reconciliation was procurred through a different act of Christ doesn't change who was reconciled according to the text. The entire Christian Book of Concord and Scripture itself stands as a testament against the false gospel of Universal Objective Justification. You are demonstrating exactly how theology ought not be done. You read the BoC through your narrow lense of denying UOJ and then force your denial upon it and then upon Holy Scripture. As I have already stated and as has been pointed out to you several times by others, the quotes from the BoC that you cite don't say what you claim they say because they aren't speaking to this issue. They are speaking of the distinction of salvation by grace verses salvation by works. Usually, I would encourage a person to put down other literature and pick up the BoC if they want to have a right knowledge of the Gospel. In your case, I suggest you put down the BoC and read your Bible. Only when you learn the truth of UOJ from God's Word will you be capable of understanding the BoC and its agreement with this most precious doctrine. Franz | ||
| Robert F. Brown (Robbntx) Junior Member Username: Robbntx Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2006 |
Hmmm, still confusing objective justification with subjective justification. God's grace extends to all who believe and accept it. The gift was made for the "whole world" and even then it is the Holy Spirit who is at work through people's heart to accept this wonderful gift of salvation and at work in Word and Sacrament. Unfortunately not everyone will accept this gift of God's grace, sadly. Please do not confuse God's grace with "faith in my faith." He who is wedded to the spirit of the age is soon a widower | ||
| Robert F. Brown (Robbntx) Junior Member Username: Robbntx Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2006 |
Well put! I am amazed at how many people are offended by the "theology of the cross" but rather embrace the "theology of glory." See The Spirituality of the Cross by Gene Veith, Jr. I quote from that book, the first chapter , titled, Justification, "Properly speaking, it is Christ on the cross who saves. Faith is simply dependence on that sacrifice." He who is wedded to the spirit of the age is soon a widower | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 95 Registered: 1-2008 |
Franz states, "Remember, verse numbers aren't inspired. Just because that phrase falls in verse 23 doesn't mean that the "all" is necessarily its antecedent." Franz, you've taken a solely justification by faith chapter and are using it to teach Justification without faith - the justification of those who don't have faith. "They are equally clear that God has justified all who sinned by His grace." Romans 3 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just,and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 96 Registered: 1-2008 |
Franz states, "God wasn't reconciling the world to Himself through the Means of Grace. God was reconciling the world to Himself through Christ, which reconciliation is delivered to us through the Means of Grace. We aren't saved because Christ preached the Gospel, but because Christ carried out the Gospel through His crucifixion and resurection. Your paradigm makes the cross unnecessary. Besides that, it misses the point. Even if Christ reconciled the world to God through the Means of Grace, the world is still reconciled. That's what the words say. Your silly insistance that the reconciliation was procurred through a different act of Christ doesn't change who was reconciled according to the text." BOC corrects Franz' UOJ assertion, "86] But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ's sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy."http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php Franz is correct that the doctrine of UOJ teaches the whole unbelieving world has been reconciled with God the Father by Christ's atonement, outside of the Means of Grace and without them being given the gracious gift of faith in Christ. According to the BOC that reconciliation makes the unbelieving world accounted by God to be righteous and His children. Yet Scripture teaches against this doctrine here: Romans 8:9, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Therefore the unbelieving world is not reconciled because they do not have the Spirit of Christ and are not children of God. And again, the BOC thoroughly rejects UOJ's basic tenet of the unbelieving world being reconciled to God by the merits of Christ without the Means of Grace working faith: BOC, "<i>The wrath of God cannot be appeased if we set against it our own works, because Christ has been set forth as a Propitiator, so that for His sake, the Father may become reconciled to us. But Christ is not apprehended as a Mediator except by faith. Therefore, by faith alone we obtain remission of sins, when we comfort our hearts with confidence in the mercy promised for 81] Christ's sake. Likewise Paul, Rom. 5:2, says: By whom also we have access, and adds, by faith. Thus, therefore, we are reconciled to the Father, and receive remission of sins when we are comforted with confidence in the mercy promised for Christ's sake. The adversaries regard Christ as Mediator and Propitiator for this reason, namely, that He has merited the habit of love; they do not urge us to use Him now as Mediator, but, as though Christ were altogether buried, they imagine that we have access through our own works, and, through these, merit this habit, and afterwards, by this love, come to God. Is not this to bury Christ altogether, and to take away the entire doctrine of faith? Paul on the contrary, teaches that we have access, i.e., reconciliation, through Christ. And to show how this occurs, he adds that we have access by faith. By faith, therefore, for Christ's sake, we receive remission of sins. We cannot set our own love and our own works over against God's wrath." BOC, "113] But faith, properly so called, is that which assents to the promise [is when my heart, and the Holy Ghost in the heart, says: The promise of God is true and certain]. Of 114] this faith Scripture speaks. And because it receives the remission of sins, and reconciles us to God, by this faith we are [like Abraham] accounted righteous for Christ's sake before we love and do the works of the Law, although love necessarily follows." http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 97 Registered: 1-2008 |
Franz states, "You are demonstrating exactly how theology ought not be done." I disagree. Although there are certainly others who are more adept than I at contending against the gospel of UOJ, I believe your own ardent UOJist WELS DP Jon Buchholz has demonstrated exactly how theology ought not be done in his recent UOJ defense essay entitled, "Jesus Canceled Your Debt." Buchholz, "Immediately preceding this passage, in Romans 4:23, 24, Paul writes, “23The words ‘it was credited to him’ were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead” (NIV). The ἡìῶí fits perfectly with “for us who believe in him.” Understood this way, our sins means the sins of believers and our justification means the justification of believers. Yet throughout Scripture the Word teaches consistently that Jesus died for the sin of the world.Why would Paul limit Jesus’ death in this context only to believers? If we understand ðáñåäüèç äéὰ ôὰ ðáñáðôþìáôá ἡìῶí to refer only to “us who believe,” Paul would be speaking of the death and atonement of Jesus in terms of its applicability to only a limited group. Granted, saying here that Jesus died for “our [believers’] sins” need not negate universal atonement, but if everywhere else Scripture refers to Jesus’ death as being for all human beings, why would Paul not speak in consonance with the rest of Scripture?9 Since Scripture speaks elsewhere of Jesus’ death being for all, it is harmonious with all of the testimony of God’s Word to understand this passage in the same way. It follows thenthat if ἡìῶí in the first clause refers ultimately to all people, then the ἡìῶí in the second, parallel clause also refers to all people: Jesus was given over to death for all; he was raised to life for the justification of all. Grammatically, either understanding of ἡìῶí (as referring only to “us who believe” or to all people) is possible." Page 5 http://azcadistrict.com/sites/default/files/papers /Buchholz_2012-10.pdf | ||
| Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1787 Registered: 12-2004 |
Notice, once again, Mr. Meyer, the chapter is dealing with justification by faith verses justification by works. Once again, you fail to consider that major distinction. Paul is not making a case against God justifying all people. He is making the case that justification is a thing received, not a thing earned. For it to be received, though, means that it must be offered and for it to be offered means it must be obtained. The question is: To whom does God offer it and for whom has it been obtained? The answer is verses 23-24:For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. This does not discount justification by faith. On the contrary, it establishes justification by faith. Your paradigm puts the unbeliever in a black hole of uncertainty. If only the believer has been justified, then the unbeliever has nothing to believe because he isn't a believer who has been justified. But faith is certainty itself because what the Gospel gives is certain. How more certain can God's justification be than for it to be universal. Think of John 3:16. Whom does God love according to Jesus? "The world," right? The unbeliever hears that passage and rightly concludes, "God loved me, even though I am an unbeliever, because the passage specifically says God loved the world. I am part of the world, therefore God loved me." He then asks, "But what does God's love for me mean for me?" Then he goes on reading and learns that "that He gave His only-begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Now is the place for faith. Why? To make God give His only-begotten Son? No! He already did that because He loved this unbeliever. Rather, to be receive eternal life. Faith and justification go together, but justification must come first or else there is nothing to believe. Now, look again at Romans 3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Listen to what it says - I mean really listen to it. All of this was necessary. Why? That He might be just, and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. The only way for God to remain just in justifying the one who has faith in Jesus was for Him to justify all who sinned. This He did freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Now, let's take a look at this from another perspective... What is the believer to do when doubts arise in his heart? Should he say, "It's ok! I am a believer." How can he say such a thing when he's already in doubt about his justification. No, he should go back to God's pronouncement that all who sinned and fall short of the glory of God are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. He sets his troubled heart at rest not by reminding himself to believe, but by reminding himself what God has declared to be the case. His doubts vanish and his faith is upheld. In your paradigm, the one who doubts is just as bad off as the one who does not believe. Neither of them can have any certainty of salvation, which means neither of them can believe. Thus, Christ's redemptive work is a sham because no one will benefit because the unbelievers don't have anything to believe and the believers don't have anything to keep them believing. All are lost. So much for God so loved the world. Franz | ||
| Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1788 Registered: 12-2004 |
Bret Meyer writes: BOC corrects Franz' UOJ assertion, "86] But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ's sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy." "Receives," Mr. Meyer, "Receives." That paragraph is talking about how we receive forgiveness of sins, not how our sins have been forgiven. Although there are certainly others who are more adept than I at contending against the gospel of UOJ, Nonsense, Mr. Meyer! You have demonstrated yourself to be every bit the equal of every other denier of UOJ. You have argued to the best of your human reason. The problem is that your human reason is in error. This is why you are failing in this discussion. It's not your intellect, it's your theology. You have Eldona and human reason on your side. We have the cross and the Word of God and the Lutheran Confessions on ours. It's not a fair fight! Franz | ||
| Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 350 Registered: 1-2002 |
"No Glory for God" is claiming that in this exchange with Brett Meyer that the Scriptures and Confessions are on the side of those who reject the scriptural doctrine of Objective Justification: http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/201 3/11/spenerquest-takes-on-brett-meyer.html Yes, the Scriptures and the Confessions won, but LutherQuest was on that side as Franz Linden shows with his latest post. My take on this is that "No Glory For God" took on the Scriptures and Confessions, which teach Objective Justification, and "No Glory For God" lost. One is given to wonder how many ways Greg Jackson will break the Eighth Commandment today? |
ICHABOD, THE GLORY HAS DEPARTED - explores the Age of Apostasy, predicted in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, to attack Objective Faithless Justification, Church Growth Clowns, and their ringmasters. The antidote to these poisons is trusting the efficacious Word in the Means of Grace. John 16:8. Isaiah 55:8ff. Romans 10. Most readers are WELS, LCMS, ELS, or ELCA. This blog also covers the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Left-wing, National Council of Churches denominations.
Saturday, November 9, 2013
SpenerQuest Remains Faithful to Halle University and Their Founder, the Syphilitic Bishop, Martin Stephan, STD
