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| "One does not simply change synods - and names - every few years. |
George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1463 Registered: 11-2012 |
Let me explain what is going on here. Robert Preus was Missouri. David Webber is Wisconsin. But Webber wants credibility in Missouri circles so he clings to a Missouri theologian who will give him that credibility. It’s kind of like how the ELDoNA men insist that Preus agreed with their denial of objective justification. He didn’t, but it helps them persuade the unwary. Now class, pay attention! Watch for the bait and switch. The bait is “grades of ministers.” “Grades of ministers” refers to the configuration of offices that the Lutherans inherited from the established church in the sixteenth century. It had to be reinterpreted by the Lutherans. The papist distinction between bishops, priests, and deacons was unbiblical. It militated against the gospel. The gospel requires an equality of ministers by divine right. Still, the Lutherans were quite conservative. They retained much of the structures they inherited, but they were always intent on bringing everything into harmony with the gospel. There can be no “grades of the ministry” that exist by divine right. That’s the critical point. I’m sure that David Webber will agree. Now let’s bring this “grades of ministers” into the twenty first century and here is where it gets interesting. First, let me briefly distinguish between the Wisconsin and Missouri positions on the ministry. Missouri teaches that God instituted the pastoral office as the form of the office of the Word that he gave to his church. All ministers of the Word have the office of preaching, teaching, and administering the sacraments. Wisconsin teaches that God did not institute any species of office, but instituted rather a genus of offices from which many species may be derived. Thus, the pastors are in a more comprehensive form of the office and schoolteachers are in a more limited form of the office. There are potentially dozens of forms of office, each of which is as divinely established as any other. They all exist within the divinely established genus of offices. Are you with me so far? Class? Wake up, Helen! This is important! Thank you. Now pay attention! Okay, so the bait is “grades of ministers.” It’s there in the historical documents. Preus’s essay is rooted in those historical documents. Preus, who is Missouri, interprets the historical documents in a Missouri fashion. Well, duh! What else is he going to do? Webber, who is Wisconsin, interprets those documents in a Wisconsin fashion. Again, duh! What do you expect? But here’s what happens. Webber tries to push Preus out of Missouri into Wisconsin. Oh, yes, he does! Now listen carefully and see for yourself. (Helen! Stop snoring and pay attention!) Let me quote Webber and you will see for yourself. He writes above: So, while theological professors (such as Melanchthon) were not parish pastors, to whom the full range of pastoral duties were entrusted, their position of responsibility was understood to be among the “grades of ministers” that the church, in its freedom, may establish within the divinely-established preaching office. This point was also a recurring theme of Robert Preus’s treatise on the Divine Call.Do you see what Webber has done? The “grades of ministers” of the 16th century now exist “within the divinely-established preaching office.” That is to say, within the genus of offices (Wisconsin), not species of office (Missouri) that God established. And this, Webber notes, is Preus’s teaching! Et, voila! Robert Preus has become Wisconsin! That’s a neat trick, to be sure. And there is just enough evidence to sell it to an unwary and rather uninformed readership. After all, what Preus said about theological professors being teachers of the church doesn’t fit neatly within the Missouri paradigm, does it? Well, then we’ll have to put it in the Wisconsin paradigm! Take your pick. This pigeon hole or that one?  Rev. Webber was kind enough to provide us with a handy link to Robert Preus’s essay. So class, if you are still with me (Helen, quit shooting spit-balls at Rick!), check out what Preus says in the essay David Webber has linked under F (beginning on page ten). He subsumes all of the various titles (which in Webber’s system would be specific forms of the generic office) under the same species of office! And guess what that office is? You got it! It’s what we nowadays call the pastoral office. How Missouri of him! Oh yeah? (Webber retorts) What about how Preus talks about a theological professor? He’s got a call! He’s in the office! He’s not a parish pastor! He doesn’t have an altar! He doesn’t baptize! So explain that! And there you have it, boys and girls. Welcome to the Johnny Cochran school of theology: “If it doesn’t fit; you must acquit.” Toss out the baby, the bathwater, the bathtub, and the bathroom and adopt the Wisconsin teaching of innumerable forms bubbling up from the collective consciousness of religious people. And claim a Missourian (Robert Preus) for your side. It just might work! |
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GJ - What is the evidence? He calls Webber "WELS", knowing Jay is ELS. That would be a big insult for an ELS parson. Both of them were ELS, just as both of them were Ft. Wayne grads.
Rolf specializes in personal attacks because he knows so little about doctrine. He is a bully while Jay is a sniper.
Rolf's big argument on this post is based on his father. Previously, all his posts began, "My father, Dr. Robert Preus..." Rolf realized that his fellow skunk-patch denizens had short-attention spans.
The post is very much Missouri versus WELS, which is why Pope John the Malefactor kicked him out of the Little Sect on the Prairie. Rolf took the Missouri side, even though Walther was dictatorial pope, because... it's a thing in Missouri.
Rolf formed the Rolf Synod from those who left the ELS, but they parted company with him rather soon. However, Jay has been their resident expert on UOJ, which must be very annoying. Whenever a Preus boy is born, the birth announcements read "Habemus papam!"
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| Seminex - the first gay Lutheran seminary - was founded upon UOJ. |
