Anonymous said...
I was listening to Pastor Frey's sermon. Around 33:30 he stated "You can walk up to anyone and say "your sins are forgiven."
Isn't this a diminishing of the Law? So long as a person remains outside of Christ he remains under God's Wrath and is doomed to hell.
Another way to put it is why would a person think they need to believe in Jesus their savior unless they first realize they need saving? This can only be brought about by an application of the Law. To ignore that step seems dangerous and foolish.
He states " You can say your sins are forgiven and that's a fact."
Would it not be better and more Scripturally accurate to say "Your sins have been paid for"?
Just wondering
-Jon
Isn't this a diminishing of the Law? So long as a person remains outside of Christ he remains under God's Wrath and is doomed to hell.
Another way to put it is why would a person think they need to believe in Jesus their savior unless they first realize they need saving? This can only be brought about by an application of the Law. To ignore that step seems dangerous and foolish.
He states " You can say your sins are forgiven and that's a fact."
Would it not be better and more Scripturally accurate to say "Your sins have been paid for"?
Just wondering
-Jon
Anonymous said...
Mr. Amendall,
You said this: [i]"WELS is confused on their definition of the Office of the Ministry."[/i]
What do you mean by that exactly?
- Mr. Abbott
You said this: [i]"WELS is confused on their definition of the Office of the Ministry."[/i]
What do you mean by that exactly?
- Mr. Abbott
Gregory Jackson said...
Anonymous - it worked great for Ski, for the various felons, including DP Ed Werner, who went to state prison, as did Vicar Scott Zerbe. It is the perfect message for the Me Generation. Do what you want. WELS's Meditations, March-May 2014, for Monday, 17 March 2014. The howler is in the second column reads: "No matter what you did yesterday -- or failed to do -- and no matter what you will do tomorrow, God has forgiven you."
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| I have heard stories - good ones. |
Brett Meyer said...
I was once told that Synod officials hated me for my approach to the defense of Christ’s Chief Article – one Justification solely by the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone. It is my experience that what they hate is the doctrine itself as I’ve been called an Antichrist, heretic and even a disciple of Pastor Gregory Jackson by the clergy and laity of the WELS, ELS and LCMS for using Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions to teach, promote and defend Christ’s doctrine of Justification while exposing the false gospel of Objective Justification. The discussions available on the internet are many. But most recently there was a revealing discussion of UOJ on this blog which exposes what the WELS teaches and rejects concerning the doctrine of Justification – Objective Justification is completely contrary to Scripture.
http://pollutedwels.blogspot.com/2014/07/so-what-now.html
"However, if anything is undertaken against the Word, faith, and the honor of God, we are in no wise to preserve silence, are to bear it far less patiently. Then we should offer stubborn resistance."
What Luther Says, An Anthology, 3 vols., ed., Ewald Plass, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, III, p. 1308. Sermon, 1523.
Martin Luther to George Major:
"Therefore, do not speak to me of love or friendship when anything is to be detracted from the Word or the faith; for we are told that not love but the Word brings eternal life, God's grace, and all heavenly treasures." 19 " In matters concerning faith we must be invincible, unbending, and very stubborn; indeed, if possible, harder than adamant. But in matters concerning love we should be softer and more pliant than any reed and leaf and should gladly accommodate ourselves to everything." 20 "Doctrine is our only light. It alone enlightens and directs us and shows us the way to heaven. If it is shaken in one quarter (in una parte), it will necessarily be shaken in its entirety (in totum). Where that happens, love cannot help us at all." 21 " But this tender mercy is to be exercised only toward Christians and among Christians, for toward those who reject and persecute the Gospel we must act differently; here I am not permitted to let my love be merciful so as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order. Then it is my duty to contend in earnest and not to yield a hairbreadth." What Luther Says, II, 637f.
Cont...
http://pollutedwels.blogspot.com/2014/07/so-what-now.html
"However, if anything is undertaken against the Word, faith, and the honor of God, we are in no wise to preserve silence, are to bear it far less patiently. Then we should offer stubborn resistance."
What Luther Says, An Anthology, 3 vols., ed., Ewald Plass, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, III, p. 1308. Sermon, 1523.
Martin Luther to George Major:
"Therefore, do not speak to me of love or friendship when anything is to be detracted from the Word or the faith; for we are told that not love but the Word brings eternal life, God's grace, and all heavenly treasures." 19 " In matters concerning faith we must be invincible, unbending, and very stubborn; indeed, if possible, harder than adamant. But in matters concerning love we should be softer and more pliant than any reed and leaf and should gladly accommodate ourselves to everything." 20 "Doctrine is our only light. It alone enlightens and directs us and shows us the way to heaven. If it is shaken in one quarter (in una parte), it will necessarily be shaken in its entirety (in totum). Where that happens, love cannot help us at all." 21 " But this tender mercy is to be exercised only toward Christians and among Christians, for toward those who reject and persecute the Gospel we must act differently; here I am not permitted to let my love be merciful so as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order. Then it is my duty to contend in earnest and not to yield a hairbreadth." What Luther Says, II, 637f.
Cont...
Brett Meyer said...
Cont...
"It is by your silence and cloaking that you cast suspicion upon yourself. If you believe as you declare in my presence, then speak so also to the church, in public lectures, in sermons, and in private conversations, and strengthen your brethren, and lead the erring back to the right path, and contradict the contumacious spirits; otherwise your confession is sham pure and simple, and worth nothing. Whoever really regards his doctrine, faith, and confession as true, right, and certain cannot remain in the same stall with such as teach, or adhere to, false doctrine; nor can he keep on giving friendly words to Satan and his minions. A teacher who remains silent when errors are taught, and nevertheless pretends to be a true teacher, is worse than an open fanatic and by his hypocrisy does greater damage than a heretic. Nor can he be trusted. He is a wolf and a fox, a hireling and a servant of his belly, and ready to despise and to sacrifice doctrine, Word, faith, Sacrament, churches, and schools. He is either a secret bedfellow of the enemies or a skeptic and a weathervane, waiting to see whether Christ or the devil will prove victorious; or he has no convictions of his own whatever, and is not worthy to be called a pupil, let alone a teacher; nor does he want to offend anybody, or say a word in favor of Christ, or hurt the devil and the world."
Martin Luther, quoted in Bente's Historical Introduction, Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 94.
"Therefore nothing but a satanic, seductive, and sinister strategy is involved when we are called upon to yield a bit and to connive at an error for the sake of unity. In this way the devil is trying cunningly to lead us away from the Word. For if we adopt this course and get together in this matter, he has already gained ground; and if we were to yield him a fingerbreadth, he would soon have an ell."
What Luther Says, An Anthology, 3 vols., ed., Ewald Plass, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, III, p. 1411f. Ephesians 6:10-17.
"It is by your silence and cloaking that you cast suspicion upon yourself. If you believe as you declare in my presence, then speak so also to the church, in public lectures, in sermons, and in private conversations, and strengthen your brethren, and lead the erring back to the right path, and contradict the contumacious spirits; otherwise your confession is sham pure and simple, and worth nothing. Whoever really regards his doctrine, faith, and confession as true, right, and certain cannot remain in the same stall with such as teach, or adhere to, false doctrine; nor can he keep on giving friendly words to Satan and his minions. A teacher who remains silent when errors are taught, and nevertheless pretends to be a true teacher, is worse than an open fanatic and by his hypocrisy does greater damage than a heretic. Nor can he be trusted. He is a wolf and a fox, a hireling and a servant of his belly, and ready to despise and to sacrifice doctrine, Word, faith, Sacrament, churches, and schools. He is either a secret bedfellow of the enemies or a skeptic and a weathervane, waiting to see whether Christ or the devil will prove victorious; or he has no convictions of his own whatever, and is not worthy to be called a pupil, let alone a teacher; nor does he want to offend anybody, or say a word in favor of Christ, or hurt the devil and the world."
Martin Luther, quoted in Bente's Historical Introduction, Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 94.
"Therefore nothing but a satanic, seductive, and sinister strategy is involved when we are called upon to yield a bit and to connive at an error for the sake of unity. In this way the devil is trying cunningly to lead us away from the Word. For if we adopt this course and get together in this matter, he has already gained ground; and if we were to yield him a fingerbreadth, he would soon have an ell."
What Luther Says, An Anthology, 3 vols., ed., Ewald Plass, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, III, p. 1411f. Ephesians 6:10-17.
Ben Wink said...
Isn't this all a symptom of a larger problem that comes with Church Growth attitudes? When you reduce the work of the church to a numbers game, you want to increase those member numbers, correct?
What is the easiest way to do that? By having a watered down message that appeals to everyone, regardless of Scripture truths and accurate doctrine. If this means telling everyone that Jesus loves them and that everyone is absolutely amazing in the eyes of God the Father, then so be it. You achieved your results and more people have shown up because of the weak tea version of Christianity you just served.
All I ever hear, consistantly pounded over and over again is "God's love" and "the Gospel message". Yet where is the Law? Is not the Law equally important? What meaning does the Gospel have, when you minimize the Law or eliminate it altogether? You then just want to get rear ends in your pews or your theater seating or whatever.
It is getting to the point that the supposed crackpots with the placards that say "Repent for the End is NEAR!" signs are actually getting more closer to the point of Scripture than certain sermons by trained pastors I've been privy to have cross my ears.
The Bible is quite clear in having both Law and Gospel be equally important. Without the Gospel, you end up in desperation and the cul-de-sac of works righteousness. Without the Law, you end up with a lovey dovey message that sounds great here on earth, but won't sound so great for an eternity.
But as people don't by nature like to hear that they are sinners and that's a negative and won't help our numbers, so intead we will lead with the Gospel instead and mention the Law in passing, if at all. And I don't think that I'm exaggerating this phenomenon. Look at some of the websites for these churches and just see the gooey messages of love oozing everywhere. This smarmy nonsense isn't true love.
True love means telling someone that they are a sinner, that God hates sin, and that they are condemned to an eternal hell.
True love then tells someone that God sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for those that believe in Christ as their Savior, through the gift of faith from the Holy Spirit.
Maybe when churches focus on the totality of the Word and present and teach the entire Scripture, not just the parts that get pews filled, then some balance will come. But I'm not holding my breath.
What is the easiest way to do that? By having a watered down message that appeals to everyone, regardless of Scripture truths and accurate doctrine. If this means telling everyone that Jesus loves them and that everyone is absolutely amazing in the eyes of God the Father, then so be it. You achieved your results and more people have shown up because of the weak tea version of Christianity you just served.
All I ever hear, consistantly pounded over and over again is "God's love" and "the Gospel message". Yet where is the Law? Is not the Law equally important? What meaning does the Gospel have, when you minimize the Law or eliminate it altogether? You then just want to get rear ends in your pews or your theater seating or whatever.
It is getting to the point that the supposed crackpots with the placards that say "Repent for the End is NEAR!" signs are actually getting more closer to the point of Scripture than certain sermons by trained pastors I've been privy to have cross my ears.
The Bible is quite clear in having both Law and Gospel be equally important. Without the Gospel, you end up in desperation and the cul-de-sac of works righteousness. Without the Law, you end up with a lovey dovey message that sounds great here on earth, but won't sound so great for an eternity.
But as people don't by nature like to hear that they are sinners and that's a negative and won't help our numbers, so intead we will lead with the Gospel instead and mention the Law in passing, if at all. And I don't think that I'm exaggerating this phenomenon. Look at some of the websites for these churches and just see the gooey messages of love oozing everywhere. This smarmy nonsense isn't true love.
True love means telling someone that they are a sinner, that God hates sin, and that they are condemned to an eternal hell.
True love then tells someone that God sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for those that believe in Christ as their Savior, through the gift of faith from the Holy Spirit.
Maybe when churches focus on the totality of the Word and present and teach the entire Scripture, not just the parts that get pews filled, then some balance will come. But I'm not holding my breath.
