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| This is how WELS protects and promotes the Jeske Mob. |
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| Here are two WELS leaders with both hands on the tiller. "Second star on the right, steer until morning." - Peter Pan |
ICHABOD, THE GLORY HAS DEPARTED - explores the Age of Apostasy, predicted in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, to attack Objective Faithless Justification, Church Growth Clowns, and their ringmasters. The antidote to these poisons is trusting the efficacious Word in the Means of Grace. John 16:8. Isaiah 55:8ff. Romans 10. Most readers are WELS, LCMS, ELS, or ELCA. This blog also covers the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Left-wing, National Council of Churches denominations.
Tuesday, March 10, 2015
Learn To Be Like Tim Glende - WELS Teachers Conference - Try Not To Laugh
Bethany Lutheran Seminary - ELS - Will Have Graduated One Person.
Graduation To Be Held Last Year
Commencement Service-2015 (New Time – 4:00pm )
The seminary commencement service will be held on Wednesday, May 13, 2014 (sic!), at 4:00 p.m. in Trinity Chapel. The Rev. Gene Lilienthal will be the preacher, President Gaylin Schmeling will serve as liturgist, and the Rev. Dr. J. Kincaid Smith will represent the Board of Regents. The following will graduate from the seminary with a Master of Divinity degree: Michael Lilienthal. The following will receive vicarage assignments: Matthew Behmer, Jeff Hendrix, Josh Mayer, Daniel Ruiz, and Andrew Soule.
Peopel, Peopel, Spelling Counts - And Spell-check Helps.
WELS Documented Blog
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| WELS pastors consider their education elite, so they do not need to bother with spell-check, grammar-check, or doctrine-check. |
http://welsdocument.blogspot.com/2015/03/lutheran-traditions-that-seem-catholic.html?showComment=1425957612243
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Coming from a place in my former WELS experience from 2003-2011, I would have to ask the last three pastors I had; "What is your motivation to move away from the traditional forms of worship?" If they were honest with that question, I think you would be shocked. The Rick Techlin case is a microcosm of what is wrong in the WELS. They won't deal with it subjectively, nor will they deal with it objectively; and church growth methods continue to grow like a cancer. They are no longer Lutherans...catholic for that matter, but just another protestant sect in America.Reply
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AnonymousMarch 9, 2015 at 10:20 PMMy theory is that the WELS pastors that started the trend away from historic catholic practices were bored with their own church experience when they were young adults. These pastors convinced themselves that it's partly their fault that thousands are dying each day without faith and it is up to them to remove the barriers that hinders the Holy Spirit. The first problem with this is that everyone has different barriers and one can not remove them all. I am confident that the Holy Spirit is able to work through any obstacle even through our sin might get in the way.Reply
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Exactly. If one holds to the idea that he can hinder the Word, it follows that he can help it along.
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- GJ - Joe is right on this one. He may inch back to justification by faith.
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WELS People Wig Out about Traditional Worship -
Warning the Blogger and Others.
WELS Documented Blog
http://welsdocument.blogspot.com/2015/03/lutheran-traditions-that-seem-catholic.html?showComment=1425957612243
AnonymousMarch 9, 2015 at 12:39 PM
So Lutherans are catholic because they wear albs?
I would ask you to be consistent then and agree that the following people are not part of the universal or catholic church:
So Luther was not a catholic?
Neither were any of the signers of the book of concord?
Neither was Paul?
Neither was my grandfather? (A very faithful preacher who I doubt had ever heard of an alb.)
Were there no catholic churches at all until the alb was standardized (in the Roman church, not the Eastern church yet) until a council in 1215 declared them standard?
This seems to be a very strange and difficult position to defend.
I disagree with almost your entire list of what makes a church "catholic" but pointing out the flawed thinking of this particular point was the easiest.
Stephen
ReplyI would ask you to be consistent then and agree that the following people are not part of the universal or catholic church:
So Luther was not a catholic?
Neither were any of the signers of the book of concord?
Neither was Paul?
Neither was my grandfather? (A very faithful preacher who I doubt had ever heard of an alb.)
Were there no catholic churches at all until the alb was standardized (in the Roman church, not the Eastern church yet) until a council in 1215 declared them standard?
This seems to be a very strange and difficult position to defend.
I disagree with almost your entire list of what makes a church "catholic" but pointing out the flawed thinking of this particular point was the easiest.
Stephen
AnonymousMarch 9, 2015 at 4:18 PM
Curious as to who compiled this post? Was it one of the blog administrators or another source? Thank you!
Reply
Stephen,
You've missed the differentiation between Catholic (capital C) and catholic (small c). Without this differentiation, I'm sure this article was blur. This article is not saying that Lutherans are capital C Catholic. That would be saying that Lutherans hold to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Instead, this article is simply showing Lutherans to be small c catholic. That is, part of the universal church in which all of these traditions have been used for many centuries.
In other words, someone may choose to wear an alb, have ashes placed on his forehead on Ash Wednesday, receive Holy Communion weekly, and conduct private confession and absolution and still be called Lutheran and not Catholic, all because these are things done in the church catholic. I believe if you re-read the above post with this in mind, you'll see it in a much different light.
WD2
ReplyYou've missed the differentiation between Catholic (capital C) and catholic (small c). Without this differentiation, I'm sure this article was blur. This article is not saying that Lutherans are capital C Catholic. That would be saying that Lutherans hold to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Instead, this article is simply showing Lutherans to be small c catholic. That is, part of the universal church in which all of these traditions have been used for many centuries.
In other words, someone may choose to wear an alb, have ashes placed on his forehead on Ash Wednesday, receive Holy Communion weekly, and conduct private confession and absolution and still be called Lutheran and not Catholic, all because these are things done in the church catholic. I believe if you re-read the above post with this in mind, you'll see it in a much different light.
WD2
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AnonymousMarch 9, 2015 at 4:58 PMWD2, I think you missed Stephen's point. True confessional Lutherans would never insist on the adoption of ANY outward rites and ceremonies in order to be a "true confessional Lutheran and a small "c" catholic. Your article implied at least that true confessional Lutherns will do all of these things. You gave the impression that you are creating a new ceremonial law, requiring things that neither Scripture nor the gospel require. Many, if not all the practices you mentioned are good and historical. But they are not what make confessional Lutherans. A true hallmark of confessional Lutherans is to celebrate the Christian freedom we have in the gospel. Such freedom will often choose to use what is time-tested and historic. But freedom does not demand it.
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AnonymousMarch 9, 2015 at 5:00 PMYou forgot to include that true confessional Lutherans and small "c" catholics will use only the King James Version.
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Anonymous at 4:58. WD1 compiled the post. I don't believe anywhere in it did she, nor did I in my response, INSIST on anything. Please show me where she or I make such an assertion.
WD2
AnonymousMarch 9, 2015 at 5:19 PM
You might want to reconsider an article that links to any ELCA church and uses their material to describe what a confessional Lutheran is: http://www.holytrinitychicago.org/about/lutheran
Is there a better example of a church body that is NOT a confessional Lutheran chrurch? Do the outward forms make them confessional?
ReplyIs there a better example of a church body that is NOT a confessional Lutheran chrurch? Do the outward forms make them confessional?
AnonymousMarch 9, 2015 at 5:38 PM
I have to add my voice to the brotherly critics. Say that these practices are good and beneficial. Say that they are wise. Say that they are loving expressions of the truth. Do NOT say or even imply that they are what make Lutherans confession or catholic. Your last paragraph is perfectly accurate. But following as a conclusion to a whole list of outward practices would lead the reader to think that the preceding list is what demonstrates faithfulness to the apostles' teaching. If you did not mean to give that impression, then you need to be much more clear in what you write. Legalism, even when dressed in the finest historic practices and traditions, is still legalism.
Reply
AnonymousMarch 9, 2015 at 8:06 PM
You are doing a disservice to those who want to uphold the traditions of the historic Lutheran liturgy and other historic practices by implying that they are somehow required for genuine confessional Lutheranism. Those who want to jettison the liturgy and move toward non-Lutheran forms of worship will be encouraged by pointing to peopel such as you who claim that confessional Lutheranism is somehow based on outward rites, traditions, and ceremonies.
Encourage such things by teaching, not by implying that they are somehow the shibboleths of confessional Lutheranism.
In other words, just stop.
ReplyEncourage such things by teaching, not by implying that they are somehow the shibboleths of confessional Lutheranism.
In other words, just stop.
Coming from a place in my former WELS experience from 2003-2011, I would have to ask the last three pastors I had; "What is your motivation to move away from the traditional forms of worship?" If they were honest with that question, I think you would be shocked. The Rick Techlin case is a microcosm of what is wrong in the WELS. They won't deal with it subjectively, nor will they deal with it objectively; and church growth methods continue to grow like a cancer. They are no longer Lutherans...catholic for that matter, but just another protestant sect in America.
Reply
AnonymousMarch 9, 2015 at 10:20 PM
My theory is that the WELS pastors that started the trend away from historic catholic practices were bored with their own church experience when they were young adults. These pastors convinced themselves that it's partly their fault that thousands are dying each day without faith and it is up to them to remove the barriers that hinders the Holy Spirit. The first problem with this is that everyone has different barriers and one can not remove them all. I am confident that the Holy Spirit is able to work through any obstacle even through our sin might get in the way.
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Encourage such things by teaching, not by implying that they are somehow the shibboleths of confessional Lutheranism.
In other words, just stop.