Faithless Jay Webber Does Not Grasp the Meaning of Plain English - And Certainly Knows Little Greek and Less Latin

David Jay Webber And while you're at it you can also read mine. wink emoticonMy essay on this subject focuses quite extensively on Luther's teaching, and dispels the myth that Luther did not teach objective justification.

Ron Pederson I have read it, some time ago though. Jay, how could anyone say that God has forgiven the sins of the world which includes all people and then say that that does not include every individual? Isn’t that the real comfort of the Gospel. If God has forgiven the world, all people, then that includes my sin too? Forgive me, but it just seems absurd to me to say that God has forgiven the sins of the world, all people, but not me as an individual.

Like · April 27 at 9:28pm · Edited

David Jay Webber It's a matter of the most helpful way to explain it, in keeping with the pattern of sound words. And do you offer comfort to people based on their inclusion in objective justification, apart from an emphasis on the here-and-now forgiveness that God is offering and bestowing in the means of grace? Isn't that the best way to make forgiveness personal and individual - to say, "Your sins are forgiven"? The truth of objective justification gives you the basis and the confidence to announce this forgiveness to every penitent individual, in a very personal way. But that's subjective justification - as built on the foundation of objective justification. That's not making objective justification as such an individual thing.

Like · 1 · April 27 at 9:35pm

Ron Pederson I agree that in Pastoral teaching/preaching we most certainly need to include both objective and subjective justification. But if it is the basis of subjective justification, objective justification, that we are addressing, especially in doctrinal sta...See More

Like · April 27 at 10:06pm · Edited

David Jay Webber Where does the Bible say this? I can show you where it says that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, but not that he takes away the sin of each individual. I can show you where it says that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, but not that that he is the propitiation for the sins of each individual. I can show you where it says that in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, but not that in Christ God was reconciling each individual to himself. On the basis of logic and syllogistic deductions, you are imposing individual terms onto Biblical descriptions of a universal event which employ universal terms. Why do this? Just teach general or universal justification in general and universal terms, and teach personal or individual justification in personal and individual terms.

Like · 4 · April 27 at 10:17pm · Edited

Once again, Jay Webber proves his lack of English reading comprehension. His Greek ignorance is a given, but one does not have to know the Biblical languages to understand a good, precise translation in the KJV tradition.

But the discussion above is especially fun because Ron Pederson is an ELS pastor who often jumps in to defend Objective Justification. But he is not extreme enough for Jar Jar Webber, who must have the last word on everything, even if it means repeating himself endlessly without providing any evidence for his opinions.

Whether it is called Objective Justification, General Justification, or Universal Objective Justification, the dogma comes from Halle Pietism, long after the Lutheran Reformation, and is completely alien to Biblical justification.

The core dogma of UOJ is - God has declared the entire world forgiven of sin. That is embedded in the Brief Statement of 1932 from the LCMS, which marked the beginning of the end for Missouri.

To this day, as one LCMS District President admitted, Objective Justification is not taught in any Missouri catechism, but only in the hideous Kuske WELS catechism. How did they all agree to get together on the basis of UOJ?

The hymn for the Emmaus Conference was - I'd Rather Have Rambach -

to this tune -

 

1. I’d rather have Rambach with silver and gold;
   I’d rather be Pietist with riches untold;
   I’d rather have Rambach with houses and lands;
   I’d rather be led by the Halle U. band.
   • Refrain:
     And to be the king of a vast domain
     And be held in sin’s dread sway;
     I’d rather have Rambach than anything
     The Gospel affords today.
2. I’d rather have Spener with men’s applause;
   I’d rather be faithful to UOJ's cause;
   I’d rather have Rambach and worldwide fame;
   I’d rather be true to Halle U's name.
3. They're fairer than roses or sauerkraut;
   They're sweeter than Thrivent grants without doubt;
   They're all that my Old Adam needs;
   I’d rather have Rambach and let him lead.
4. 
   

 Valleskey is a good example of promoting UOJ
and Church Growth in the same book,
which Webber considers "weird."
The Synodical Conference does this inconsistently
but persistently.