Ichabod, The Glory Has Departed: The Harvey Weinstein Synods Worry about Tuxes

Wednesday, October 11, 2017

The Harvey Weinstein Synods Worry about Tuxes

David Jay Webber allied himself with the Harvey Weinstein of Columbus -
for the money,
Kovo the Church Growth Guru,
and UOJ,
but worries publicly about tuxes.

David Jay Webber is feeling sad.

October 8 at 8:04pm

Someone posted this elsewhere on Facebook today. I'm hearing this kind of thing more and more often, and it both embarrasses me and breaks my heart - although this is the first time I have heard of a WELS pastor wearing a tuxedo instead of church vestments. Don't think that this kind of thing is not chasing good people away. It is.

"Went to a WELS church today after leaving ELCA. What I noticed ... no traditional worship service, only contemporary worship. Pastor wore a tux instead of traditional attire. Sermon was good but I honestly felt like it was a non-denom. over a Lutheran church. Even the ELCA had more of a traditional service than them.(sic)"

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Jeffery Clark and 37 others

Comments

Matthias Leyrer The WELS really needs to take an official, hardline stance on this nonsense

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October 8 at 8:06pm

Eric Olp The modern megachurch "Purpose Driven Church" methodology is a plague and a cancer and needs to be excised from Lutheranism ASAP. One of the things i'll give the LCMS credit for is attacking this head-on and having factions call out their purpose-driven proponents.

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October 8 at 8:08pm

Samuel Novak A tuxedo? What the heck?

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October 8 at 8:12pm

Joann Maske Where was this?

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October 8 at 8:13pm

Jason Sturgill I agree Pastor Webber. WELS concerns me in these areas.

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October 8 at 8:16pm

Lloyd Essmann This very bothersome

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October 8 at 8:18pm

Jason Sturgill Revivalism and enthusiasm have a home in many pockets within our synod.

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October 8 at 8:23pm

Carol Hoffmann Speed I think this is not the norm. Wish the church was mentioned in the article. Maybe there was a reason why this church service was done this way. I hate anonymous accusations. Maybe there is some agenda here.

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October 8 at 8:24pm

David Jay Webber This comment was published on a public forum, but not on this forum. So, I do not want to add detail that would zero in on the identity of the poster. But I can tell you that this post was made with great disappointment on his part. And in the original...See More

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October 8 at 8:30pm

Carol Hoffmann Speed replied11 Replies

Christine Ullmann One thing I give the ELCA props for is their faithfulness to traditional worship. Every ELCA service I've been to has been strongly liturgical. Their faithfulness to the Bible and doctrine, on the other hand…

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October 8 at 8:34pm

David Jay Webber "Maybe there was a reason why this church service was done this way."

The reason why churches do this is clear. They think that this is the way to reach prospects in their communities. They think that people who are not born and bred in the Lutheran C...See More

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October 8 at 8:34pm

Rachel Parsons Growing up WELS (ELS member now) I had a similar experience visiting a WELS church while traveling out of town this weekend. I used to enjoy being able to attend different synod churches and know what I was going to get. We were disappointed that we un...See More

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October 8 at 8:37pm

Rachel Parsons replied2 Replies

Jon Jordan This has been an area of concern for me as well. One of the WELS locations in my area you wont find a pastor in a robe or a suit, just a button down shirt and dress pants or Khakis.

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October 8 at 8:38pm

Matthew Baerbock replied3 Replies

Christine Ullmann I think the WELS does need to think seriously about this. I grew up WELS, attended an LES when there was one available, graduated from MLC, taught in a WELS high school, served overseas with a WELS mission. I married a man who grew up LCMS. We started ...See More

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October 8 at 8:48pm

William Stiefel replied1 Reply

David Jay Webber Lutheran pastors who look with envying eyes upon the large numbers in attendance at the heterodox churches of our land, and who think that their own attendance will increase if they imitate the worship practices of those churches, need to realize that ...See More

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October 8 at 8:55pm

James H. Cavener replied1 Reply

David Jay Webber It is my considered opinion that a full-bodied liturgical service, which preserves the intended flow and rhythm of the liturgy, and which is accompanied by purposeful ceremonial ornamentation, actually recommends itself to the church as a better instru...See More

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October 8 at 8:55pm

Phil Boileau If you don’t like contemporary worship, don’t go to a church that uses a form of worship you don’t like. It amazes me that most people who prefer a more contemporary form of worship rarely condemn those who have a traditional preference. I wish the reverse was true. Show grace and put the best construction on everything.

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October 8 at 9:47pm

Sheila Ramirez replied36 Replies

Sara James Tuxedo? Perhaps immediately after the service he was standing up in a wedding, ballroom dancing, attending prom, a State dinner, or a military ball and didn't have time to change. In all seriousness though, I am wondering why a pastor would intentionally introduce a distraction into the Service. Formal wear is very situationally specific; it appears pretentious outside of those events. Were women wearing ball gowns?

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October 8 at 10:20pmEdited

Sara Mae Schneider replied13 Replies

Donald Hochmuth A tux worn in a WELS church by presiding minister? Really? I have not seen that done since I was a Methodist. Sad! Sad! Sad!! Is our church becoming the church that I left and was kicked out of the house by my parents for? Is this coming to us through our Sem? I see more and more disrespect in our circles for the Mass. Again, I say "Sad!"

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October 8 at 11:47pmEdited

Donald Hochmuth replied12 Replies

Lois Johnson They all need to read Hammer of God by Bo Giertz regarding clergy attire.

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October 9 at 1:08am

Donald Hochmuth replied1 Reply

Sheila Ramirez My Wels church has the traditional services and liturgy. My Sunday night sevice at The Core is different. The message is totaly centered on Christ, but Pastor Mike doesnt wear robes. There is nothing wrong with this. This is a special mission church meant to bring many unchurched in the downtown of Appleton to Christ. Sometimes we get way too roped up in the traditions set by man vs the message of the Gospel and Law.

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October 9 at 3:46am

Laura R. Charron replied9 Replies

Kirk Meyer Although the original report is troubling, even more troubling is the paucity of WELS pastors who are willing to publicly oppose emulation of the sects in their worship practices.

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October 9 at 6:58am

Joe Jewell replied1 Reply

Sara Mae Schneider Usually it's the reverse... except the tux. I've never heard of that anywhere.

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October 9 at 8:09am

Donald Hochmuth replied10 Replies

Laura R. Charron Never heard of that. Not something we need tho.

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October 9 at 10:10am

Jeff Samelson After this was published last year, I had a retired WELS pastor contact me (I'm paraphrasing, from memory) and ask whether I was really trying to restart this whole contentious debate, because he thought the question had been "settled" years back in fa...See More

Organs or guitars?

Jeffrey L. Samelson Organs or guitars? Actually, it’s not about the instruments. Maybe it was for Great Aunt…

WELS.NET

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October 9 at 10:28am

Jeff Samelson replied4 Replies

Jeff Samelson A comment was made above about WELS pastors speaking up against the inroads of evangelical worship. What I think would be particularly helpful would be for laypeople to speak up when and where it counts. I suspect that most of the "contemporary" worshi...See More

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October 9 at 10:36am

Rachel Parsons replied8 Replies

Luke I Tembreull It is always difficult when our expectations are dashed. For someone leaving an ELCA high church congregation, I can see how they would be very put off when they would expect even better from a church that claims to value doctrine and practice so highl...See More

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October 9 at 12:32pm

Luke I Tembreull Some of this is on us pastors for not teaching the meaning of the liturgy, or certain parts of our Lutheran heritage. We can fall into a little bit of a trap if we say, "I just preach the gospel", as if teaching the confessions and the liturgy and our ...See More

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October 9 at 12:36pm

David Jay Webber WELS people who are embarrassed or frightened by their smallness need to consider something very basic: Heterodox churches are growing, and have lots of people going there, largely because of their heterodoxy. People by nature like heterodoxy. They lik...See More

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October 9 at 1:08pmEdited

Sheila Ramirez replied1 Reply

Geoffrey A. Kieta These discussions always leave me very conflicted. Personally, I am absolutely committed to liturgical worship and I have no intention of hanging my robe or my stoles in the closet. Yet, this thread bothers me. Did I misunderstand, or is the assumpt...See More

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October 9 at 2:32pm

Scott O. Kuznicki replied22 Replies

Tom Plamann Wow! So much brotherly love here....

😕

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October 9 at 6:25pm

Sheila Ramirez replied10 Replies

Martin Hahm Adiaphoron, where applicable, .....but guarding against tripping up weak,
....., but, personally, I'd prefer having David play his harp, unless dancing for joy with the choir. Why don't we use boats

🚣🏻 for pulpits, or hillsides, as Jesus did?
Shall we thank for PA systems, saving vocal cords?

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October 9 at 9:30pm

Jeff Samelson Let's remember that identifying an issue as "adiaphora" does not indicate the end of discussion ("Oh, that's an adiaphoron! Everybody do whatever they think is best!") but rather the beginning of discussion ("Hmm, an adiaphoron. Let's carefully conside...See More

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October 9 at 10:51pm

Bob Herbon replied2 Replies

Tom Plamann So what was the Pastors response when you approached him with this concern?

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Yesterday at 10:55am

Joe Jewell replied19 Replies

Nancy Fleener Evans I call this thread GOSSIP and needs to stop.....

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Yesterday at 4:46pm

Seth Bode replied9 Replies

Michael Coenen Fires! Hurricanes! Floods! Riots! Wars! All this going on, one disaster after another and there is a post complaining a pastor didn't wear a robe??? This is foolish! Straight from the devil himself!

Let's stop worrying that a pastor didn't wear a robe. Instead lets get on our knees and humble ourselves and turn from our wicked ways and pray for each other and this country!

Instead of this nonsense, lets talk about gathering and grouping together to read The Word of God Everyday. Let's talk about growing as Christians and giving our money and time to build the Kingdom of God. Let's also go and tell Everyone about Christ today.

Please delete this whole post, it makes us look like the world and not Christ like.

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Yesterday at 6:56pmEdited

Hide 25 Replies

Bonnie Kay This is THE best discussion I have read on this subject. I have a much better understanding of why the historic liturgy is absolutely necessary in Lutheran churches. Great discussion!

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Yesterday at 7:00pm

David Jay Webber As I have said more than once, to me the tuxedo thing, while an oddity, is not the main point of the post or of the ensuing discussion. I am not interested in pursuing whether or not the pastor wore a tuxedo, and if so, why. In a hierarchy of concerns,...See More

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Yesterday at 7:18pm

Joe Jewell Bonnie Kay I agree. I've had this experience over and over again on WELS Discussions... some really trenchant, insightful analysis on an important topic. It's a real blessing for me to be able to read along.

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Yesterday at 7:22pm

David Jay Webber It is not foolish or nonsensical to be concerned about WELS (or ELS) churches looking and feeling, to informed visitors, like heterodox non-denominational churches - especially when these WELS (or ELS) churches are deliberately trying to look and feel that way because they think it will make themselves more appealing to unchurched people.

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Yesterday at 7:23pm

Lee Liermann But this is what needs to be done. Pastors need to teach the history and meaning of the liturgy, laymen (which includes women by the way) need to raise their concerns with their Pastors, sites like this need to have the discussion. If you are uncomfo...See More

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Yesterday at 8:55pm

Sheila Ramirez Michael told me that this site should be set to a closed site so your discussions are not viewed by other facebook users. This way you can discuss these topics but dont have onlookers see this and turn away from God, thinking bad things like they argue...See More

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Joe Jewell Sheila Ramirez we vet people as carefully as possible before admitting them to try to discern some WELS/ELS/CELC or other Confessional Lutheran affiliation or genuine interest. This includes looking at the applicant's page, what is set to public visibi...See More

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David Moseley Joe I think what Sheila is saying (correct me if I'm wrong Sheila) is that non members of this group can see the page and that maybe it's not the best thing. I would agree with that. However, just to be clear I'm totally fine with the OP on this page.

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David Moseley Joe I think what Sheila is saying (correct me if I'm wrong Sheila) is that non members of this group can see the page and that maybe it's not the best thing. I would agree with that. However, just to be clear I'm totally fine with the OP on this page.

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Sheila Ramirez Wow! You really sadden the Lord! To think Im not Lutheran when all I mostly post is Scriptures and things to lead people to Jesus? I am a life time member at Bethel Menasha a Wels church. This is beyond ridiculous! I love my Lord above all things.

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Sheila Ramirez I just happen to have friends online who are many different Christians. I love to share my Czech friends posts but must share them from his rapture site right now.

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David Moseley Sorry it posted twice. Facebook was acting up.

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Joe Jewell Sheila Ramirez, all I can see is what you've posted on your page. As I said, the moderators let you in even though it was mostly non-Lutheran content.

David Moseley OK, sure, but quite honestly, if a member of a Baptist or a non-denominational church ...See More

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Sheila Ramirez This is why my Wels pastor said to pay no mind to these groups.

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Joe Jewell Sheila Ramirez but he does say to follow TD Jakes and Rapture groups?

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Sheila Ramirez I said that I post my Czech friends posts for the Lord but can only get them from the rapture site he posts to right now. And I have no idea who TD Jakes is. Maybe it was on a picture with Christian message or Scripture. I have posted things on Luther.

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Sara James Sheila Ramirez Please take my suggestion in the kindest possible way. There are many different ways to strengthen our faith. Please join sites (I would suggest Wels Lutherans, the official Wels page and the Els page) that strengthen you and build you u...See More

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Sheila Ramirez Im on those too. I joined at first because I thought it was a forum setup by Wels to discuss synod happenings or the like.

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Sheila Ramirez I have been on it for long time. Just didnt get things in my newsfeed often. No worries.

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Sheila Ramirez And yes Im not for TD Jakes either. Guess his name shows up on some Scripture posts. I share daily Scripture I copy and paste from Bible Gateway.

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Jason Sturgill Sheila, I don't think it is appropriate for you, or anyone for that matter, to tell someone that they "sadden the Lord" simply because you disagree with them. You certainly don't speak for God and taking such a stance is rather bold and above your pay ...See More

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Sheila Ramirez Forgive me please. Im just sad anyone looks at my posts to see my worthiness.

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Jason Sturgill No problem. But I wouldn't take it like that. It's not about worthiness. We want people to grow in faith and knowledge here. I have been corrected before. That's how we grow. Some days I'm the teacher and on many days I'm the student. That is what make...See More

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Joe Jewell Jason Sturgill this was well-said. Sheila Ramirez, thank you for reading what he had to say; I think he communicated better than I could have.

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Sheila Ramirez God bless you all in this. I enjoy posting His word daily. I work with many agnostics etc. And am looking for avenues to share my songs for God. Here is one.

"Rest in Me"...See More

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Patrick Mulrain Perhaps i missed it but with all the WELS pastors on this page it seems odd not one has verified the original post. Given the size and interconnection of the synod I'd of thought someone would have said yes it's accurate in the details or no there is more to the story.

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Paul Webber How could a pastor know, since they're 'll pretty busy on sundays

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Paul Webber And the op didn't want to out/personally attack an individual. It was meant to be a discussion based on overarching lutheran principles

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Patrick Mulrain Circuit meetings?
Family?
Friends?...See More

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Paul Webber I think if you really want to know, you can send David Jay Webber a private message

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GJ - My advice - Keep throwing sand in everyone's eyes, so they do not see your clay feet.