Hymns and Music

raklatt has left a new comment on your post "Worship - From WELS":

Combining "Thaxted" and the lyric of "Jerusalem the Golden" makes for romance and emotion.

The fourth movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony and either the original lyric or the Joyful lyric are also to stir up human emotion.

Emotion is not a useful conveyance for the Word because of its temporary nature. Neither of those tunes should have added words to given them religious connotations. They need to stay in their pagan and secular realms.

The words of the lyric and its poetry come first. The musical setting for that poetry must only accompany and not out-shout the lyric as it does in both the Beethoven and this arrangement of Jerusalem.

The Beethoven theme has become trite and so will the Holst theme.

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Freddy Finkelstein has left a new comment on your post "Worship - From WELS":

I.J. Reilly asks: do you also object to the use of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Fourth Movement in the hymn "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee"?

Yes, I do, and for the same reasons. The final movement of Beethoven's Ninth is, by far, more well known as a herald of agnosticism than an instrument of worship to the One, True God. Adopting it as an anthem of Christian worship is, at best, an awkward and mostly unsuccessful attempt to co-opt overtly and deliberately agnostic art as sacred expression. Believe it or not, strange as it may seem, I have run into many Christians, even in pop-church Evangelicalism, who strongly dislike it. When they sing "Joyful, Joyful" they know they are really singing two different things at the same time.

For that matter, I also disfavor the use of Sibelius' hymn, Finlandia, originally included in his nationalistic symphony of the same name, but later re-written by him as a stand-alone hymn for use in Masonic rituals. It was later used as a national hymn and also incorporated by Scandinavians into church hymnody. Pretty song? Yes. Unfortunately, it carries with it far too much secular and Masonic baggage to be suitable as Christian worship, in my opinion.

Christians are far better off using original art for the purposes of Christian worship.

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 Freddy Finkelstein has left a new comment on your post "Worship - From WELS":

Interesting. This is the new setting from the WELS Hymnal Supplement. The tune is named Thaxted -- the name of the favorite hometown of its author, Gustav Holst. This tune was written for the Jupiter cycle of his very popular orchestral suite, The Planets -- a series of tone poems written to describe the astrological characters the planets are named for. While the entire suite was inspired, in part, by the political times in which Holst wrote the work (he was a Fabian Socialist), and in part by the landscape and daily life of Thaxted (indeed, the tune Thaxted was inspired by the impressive image of the steeple of St. John the Baptist that rises above Thaxted), it was nevertheless written to celebrate the character and influence of pagan gods.

The tune Thaxted is inserted in the tone poem about Jupiter, "the Bringer of Jollity," in a section that has been described by some as Jupiter's descent to earth, where he leaves the celebration to woo female virgins. Thaxted is his love song. After his "courtship," Jupiter returns to the celebration. Even today, all the girls go goo goo when they hear this tune. It is a pretty song. Here is a YouTube video of the entire Jupiter cycle -- you can hear Thaxted solemnly emerge from the "jollity:" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B49N46I39Y

It is interesting to me that in a Synod which does not allow wedding music by Wagner -- because of its pagan associations -- that they would publish much more recently written pagan-themed music. I remember hearing Jerusalem the Golden put to music from Holst's pagan tone poem five years ago (I think) at District Convention. They were "testing it." I immediately recognized it as having pagan associations and wouldn't sing it. Listening, then, to several hundred men sing this sugary/sappy love song just made me chuckle. The version has become the standard version at our church. My wife and I won't sing it, though -- and, yes, we've complained. But no one cares -- all music is amoral, right?

Freddy Finkelstein
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Freddy Finkelstein has left a new comment on your post "Worship - From WELS":

This is a valid difference. What of the words? I would argue that words are irrelevant, in both cases, to the point being made. If tunes by Wagner, all by themselves, carry pagan and/or secular association strong enough to forbid them, then the pagan tunes by Holst, regardless of the words superimposed on them, themselves carry these associations strong enough to offend, as well. Lipstick on a pig doesn't change the pig. No one among us, that I know of, has attempted to sanctify Wagner's music in this way. As it would be in the case of Wagner, by adding words to Holst's pagan anthem, all one succeeds in doing is preaching two different messages at once, even holding them both up as equivalent. This is the same issue foundational to the use of so-called "Contemporary Worship" -- strong associations not only with pagan and secular sources producing the music itself, not only of strong associations with heterodox church bodies that make use of the contemporary genre, but of its inherent ability to teach and reinforce false doctrine. The lyrics of so-called "Contemporary Worship" aren't bad primarily because the theology of its authors is bad, the lyrics are bad principally because they don't matter -- the experience produced by the use of this music, all by itself, regardless of the words, is not only sufficient but necessary to teach and reinforce their false doctrines regarding the Holy Spirit and the Means through which He works. There is no such thing as amoral music, and Contemporary advocates in America exploit this fact in their own interest.

I would further argue that invocation of "eating meat sacrificed to idols" is incomplete in the application given to it, above. Mention of this was not intended by Paul as a tool for identifying and ridiculing those with a supposedly weak conscience. The point is, whether anyone is known to have a weak conscience or not, if association of the meat to paganism is publicly known, don't eat it because of the offense such eating would create. Tunes by Wagner -- without the words he wrote to accompany them, I might add -- create offense. We don't use these tunes. Given the popularity of his wedding march, it is incredible to me that none of our talented Lutheran lyricists haven't written suitable words for it, if that is all that is required in order to make it suitable. Nevertheless, if, all by themselves, tunes written by Wagner ~150 years ago are still strong enough in their association with pagan themes to create offense, the tunes by Holst do as well -- more so given that Holst is a much more recent composer, that The Planets is much more popular among average folks these days than any of Wagner's works, and that his intentions with the music, and the stories he succeeds in telling with it, are so transparent and direct.

My opinion,

Freddy Finkelstein

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GJ  - Mr. Klatt and Mr. Finkelstein have made good points. Some melodies are so closely associated with the words that people think of the other context. "How Firm a Foundation" can be sung to Adeste Fidelis, as indicated in the LCA hymnal, but everyone looks around when singing a Christmas melody to another hymn. That conflict reminds me of  the New Dick Van Dyke's  TV show failing because he had a "another wife," not Laura Petrie. Van Dyke lived in Cave Creek (Phoenix) and shot the failing show there, with his alien TV wife Hope Lange.

Some hymns are popular and sung threadbare for a time. "Life High the Cross" was over-appreciated and overused in the LCA, only to appear again in the WELS hymnal. James Tiefel predicted its demise.

The often-denounced hymns are really the best because they are not popular with the Methodist-Babtist crowd and emphasize Biblical doctrine rather than feelings. The denounced hymns are the German chorales, Gerhardt (but not during a centennial celebration), and Luther. Unfortunately, Lutheran pastors have been lazy in pleasing their Pietistic audiences while neglecting their congregations' doctrinal education. The Shrinkers have taken this tendency to a new, lower level by aiming at entertainment, training their members to join even worse sects.

I have always enjoyed popular music, but children raised with pop music alone never develop a capacity to enjoy real music. Our policy at home was to play only classical music, hymns, and sacred music. We never played pop or rock music in the car. The result was a Lutheran who knew classical music well and still enjoyed pop favorites.

I told a shocked and grieving college audience, "It takes very little talent to play rock music." I did a loud "TWANG!" and screamed. They asked me to repeat that and defend my thesis. That was simple. The entire class agreed that the Boston Symphony could play rock if they wanted, but very few rock musicians could join the Boston Symphony. The next week I brought Mr. Bose to play Pachebel's Canon as they arrived in class. Most of the students asked, "What's that?" and wrote down the name of the piece. I encouraged them to learn about classical music and appreciate - not as background music - but for its own value.

The same can be said for classical Christian music - not because it is old, although much of it has withstood the test of time, outlasting truly dreadful hymns. Classical Christian music is valued because it is good. Zinzendorf wrote hundreds of bad hymns and two good ones, both in The Lutheran Hymnal.