Interesting. This is the new setting from the WELS Hymnal Supplement. The tune is named Thaxted -- the name of the favorite hometown of its author, Gustav Holst. This tune was written for the Jupiter cycle of his very popular orchestral suite, The Planets -- a series of tone poems written to describe the astrological characters the planets are named for. While the entire suite was inspired, in part, by the political times in which Holst wrote the work (he was a Fabian Socialist), and in part by the landscape and daily life of Thaxted (indeed, the tune Thaxted was inspired by the impressive image of the steeple of St. John the Baptist that rises above Thaxted), it was nevertheless written to celebrate the character and influence of pagan gods.
The tune Thaxted is inserted in the tone poem about Jupiter, "the Bringer of Jollity," in a section that has been described by some as Jupiter's descent to earth, where he leaves the celebration to woo female virgins. Thaxted is his love song. After his "courtship," Jupiter returns to the celebration. Even today, all the girls go goo goo when they hear this tune. It is a pretty song. Here is a YouTube video of the entire Jupiter cycle -- you can hear Thaxted solemnly emerge from the "jollity:" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B49N46I39Y
It is interesting to me that in a Synod which does not allow wedding music by Wagner -- because of its pagan associations -- that they would publish much more recently written pagan-themed music. I remember hearing Jerusalem the Golden put to music from Holst's pagan tone poem five years ago (I think) at District Convention. They were "testing it." I immediately recognized it as having pagan associations and wouldn't sing it. Listening, then, to several hundred men sing this sugary/sappy love song just made me chuckle. The version has become the standard version at our church. My wife and I won't sing it, though -- and, yes, we've complained. But no one cares -- all music is amoral, right?
The difference, of course, between Wagner and the use of Thaxted is the Word.
Wagner's Wedding March has no words, and so it retains its pagan association.
"The earth is the Lord's and everything in it...(Ps.24)." If a pagan wrote a tune for pagan purposes, and then a Christian joins a wonderful, Scriptural text to that tune to be used to the glory of God and the edifying of the saints, that's just another example of Christ' ruling in the midst of his enemies. (Ps. 2)
The situation you describe is rather similar to Paul eating meat sacrificed to idols. You seem to have a weak conscience in this area.
(BTW - Christ died on a pagan instrument of torture...)
In the CW supplement, there is a song called Christ Alone. The melody is pretty and played on piano. The lyrics are Scriptural, hince Christ Alone. If I remember correctly, it was written in the 1970s. After singing that song, I say to myself, "Now Brett Meyer would probably like this one."(a reference to the song title)
Another difference between the Wedding March and Thaxted, is that the Wedding March has modern associations--the umpteen thousand portrayals of foolish preachers and irreverent weddings in movies and TV shows for which it is used.
This is a valid difference. What of the words? I would argue that words are irrelevant, in both cases, to the point being made. If tunes by Wagner, all by themselves, carry pagan and/or secular association strong enough to forbid them, then the pagan tunes by Holst, regardless of the words superimposed on them, themselves carry these associations strong enough to offend, as well. Lipstick on a pig doesn't change the pig. No one among us, that I know of, has attempted to sanctify Wagner's music in this way. As it would be in the case of Wagner, by adding words to Holst's pagan anthem, all one succeeds in doing is preaching two different messages at once, even holding them both up as equivalent. This is the same issue foundational to the use of so-called "Contemporary Worship" -- strong associations not only with pagan and secular sources producing the music itself, not only of strong associations with heterodox church bodies that make use of the contemporary genre, but of its inherent ability to teach and reinforce false doctrine. The lyrics of so-called "Contemporary Worship" aren't bad primarily because the theology of its authors is bad, the lyrics are bad principally because they don't matter -- the experience produced by the use of this music, all by itself, regardless of the words, is not only sufficient but necessary to teach and reinforce their false doctrines regarding the Holy Spirit and the Means through which He works. There is no such thing as amoral music, and Contemporary advocates in America exploit this fact in their own interest.
I would further argue that invocation of "eating meat sacrificed to idols" is incomplete in the application given to it, above. Mention of this was not intended by Paul as a tool for identifying and ridiculing those with a supposedly weak conscience. The point is, whether anyone is known to have a weak conscience or not, if association of the meat to paganism is publicly known, don't eat it because of the offense such eating would create. Tunes by Wagner -- without the words he wrote to accompany them, I might add -- create offense. We don't use these tunes. Given the popularity of his wedding march, it is incredible to me that none of our talented Lutheran lyricists haven't written suitable words for it, if that is all that is required in order to make it suitable. Nevertheless, if, all by themselves, tunes written by Wagner ~150 years ago are still strong enough in their association with pagan themes to create offense, the tunes by Holst do as well -- more so given that Holst is a much more recent composer, that The Planets is much more popular among average folks these days than any of Wagner's works, and that his intentions with the music, and the stories he succeeds in telling with it, are so transparent and direct.
If you object to this, do you also object to the use of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Fourth Movement in the hymn "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee"? The original text that goes along with that music in the choral symphony is pure humanism: "Men can join together to fix all the world's problems."
Spiritual growth and maturity entails overcoming religious superstitions, paganism and bigotry. They were taught to you as much to control you as to share the Word of God.
Consider the sinful nature's constant inclination in this discussion: It is dead in transgressions and sin; it in turn corrupts everything I think, say, and do; in turn, it turn, it is always being corrupted by devil and world. Anything and everything the sinful nature encounters, whether music, art, or photography, affects one's sinful nature and that sinful nature is in turn effects its sinful response. The Means of Grace alone are the tool of the Spirit to call, gather, enlighten, sanctify and keep Christ's Church in the one true faith. When the Word is preached in its truth and purity, and the Sacraments rightly administered, through faith the new Adam is renewed. The old Adam is drowned only by the Law's exposure of, and condemnation of the sinner his fruits. Daily, moment by moment, the struggle goes on. Lord have mercy on us, sinners that we most certainly are. Free us from our pride, foolishness, and fear through the merit of Your Son.
I.J. Reilly asks: do you also object to the use of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Fourth Movement in the hymn "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee"?
Yes, I do, and for the same reasons. The final movement of Beethoven's Ninth is, by far, more well known as a herald of agnosticism than an instrument of worship to the One, True God. Adopting it as an anthem of Christian worship is, at best, an awkward and mostly unsuccessful attempt to co-opt overtly and deliberately agnostic art as sacred expression. Believe it or not, strange as it may seem, I have run into many Christians, even in pop-church Evangelicalism, who strongly dislike it. When they sing "Joyful, Joyful" they know they are really singing two different things at the same time.
For that matter, I also disfavor the use of Sibelius' hymn, Finlandia, originally included in his nationalistic symphony of the same name, but later re-written by him as a stand-alone hymn for use in Masonic rituals. It was later used as a national hymn and also incorporated by Scandinavians into church hymnody. Pretty song? Yes. Unfortunately, it carries with it far too much secular and Masonic baggage to be suitable as Christian worship, in my opinion.
Christians are far better off using original art for the purposes of Christian worship.
Combining "Thaxted" and the lyric of "Jerusalem the Golden" makes for romance and emotion.
The fourth movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony and either the original lyric or the Joyful lyric are also to stir up human emotion.
Emotion is not a useful conveyance for the Word because of its temporary nature. Neither of those tunes should have added words to given them religious connotations. They need to stay in their pagan and secular realms.
The words of the lyric and its poetry come first. The musical setting for that poetry must only accompany and not out-shout the lyric as it does in both the Beethoven and this arrangement of Jerusalem.
The Beethoven theme has become trite and so will the Holst theme.
Freddy Finkelstein, Chief Little Hat, and raklatt, say it like it is, for us all who ARE orthodox, confessing Lutherans... Thanks guys for saying what you did, for us all. AMEN.
What you need to understand is that you can use words to any tune. It is adiaphora. It is neither commanded nor forbidden in the Scriptures. Jesus in his day did not sing to any particular tunes that we use now. So who are we to say that we are to restrict what type of music is or is not put to good doctrinal words. The spirit works through the means, Word and Sacrament. That includes the Gospel in the form of music. It can be music to rap, pop, etc. Would those be good choices, probably not, are they wrong, of course not.
When one is troubled by such things, turn to Scripture. Nowhere does it say singing Jerusalem the Golden to "Thaxed" or whatever the tune might be, is against the will of God. Therefore get off your pious butts and join in on the song. It has a great message that any Christain will be comforted by hearing it. Don't worry what the tune is, worry what the words say. If the words are correct, it shouldn't matter what the tune is.
12 comments:
Interesting. This is the new setting from the WELS Hymnal Supplement. The tune is named Thaxted -- the name of the favorite hometown of its author, Gustav Holst. This tune was written for the Jupiter cycle of his very popular orchestral suite, The Planets -- a series of tone poems written to describe the astrological characters the planets are named for. While the entire suite was inspired, in part, by the political times in which Holst wrote the work (he was a Fabian Socialist), and in part by the landscape and daily life of Thaxted (indeed, the tune Thaxted was inspired by the impressive image of the steeple of St. John the Baptist that rises above Thaxted), it was nevertheless written to celebrate the character and influence of pagan gods.
The tune Thaxted is inserted in the tone poem about Jupiter, "the Bringer of Jollity," in a section that has been described by some as Jupiter's descent to earth, where he leaves the celebration to woo female virgins. Thaxted is his love song. After his "courtship," Jupiter returns to the celebration. Even today, all the girls go goo goo when they hear this tune. It is a pretty song. Here is a YouTube video of the entire Jupiter cycle -- you can hear Thaxted solemnly emerge from the "jollity:" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B49N46I39Y
It is interesting to me that in a Synod which does not allow wedding music by Wagner -- because of its pagan associations -- that they would publish much more recently written pagan-themed music. I remember hearing Jerusalem the Golden put to music from Holst's pagan tone poem five years ago (I think) at District Convention. They were "testing it." I immediately recognized it as having pagan associations and wouldn't sing it. Listening, then, to several hundred men sing this sugary/sappy love song just made me chuckle. The version has become the standard version at our church. My wife and I won't sing it, though -- and, yes, we've complained. But no one cares -- all music is amoral, right?
Freddy Finkelstein
The difference, of course, between Wagner and the use of Thaxted is the Word.
Wagner's Wedding March has no words, and so it retains its pagan association.
"The earth is the Lord's and everything in it...(Ps.24)." If a pagan wrote a tune for pagan purposes, and then a Christian joins a wonderful, Scriptural text to that tune to be used to the glory of God and the edifying of the saints, that's just another example of Christ' ruling in the midst of his enemies. (Ps. 2)
The situation you describe is rather similar to Paul eating meat sacrificed to idols. You seem to have a weak conscience in this area.
(BTW - Christ died on a pagan instrument of torture...)
In the CW supplement, there is a song called Christ Alone. The melody is pretty and played on piano. The lyrics are Scriptural, hince Christ Alone. If I remember correctly, it was written in the 1970s. After singing that song, I say to myself, "Now Brett Meyer would probably like this one."(a reference to the song title)
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
Another difference between the Wedding March and Thaxted, is that the Wedding March has modern associations--the umpteen thousand portrayals of foolish preachers and irreverent weddings in movies and TV shows for which it is used.
This is a valid difference. What of the words? I would argue that words are irrelevant, in both cases, to the point being made. If tunes by Wagner, all by themselves, carry pagan and/or secular association strong enough to forbid them, then the pagan tunes by Holst, regardless of the words superimposed on them, themselves carry these associations strong enough to offend, as well. Lipstick on a pig doesn't change the pig. No one among us, that I know of, has attempted to sanctify Wagner's music in this way. As it would be in the case of Wagner, by adding words to Holst's pagan anthem, all one succeeds in doing is preaching two different messages at once, even holding them both up as equivalent. This is the same issue foundational to the use of so-called "Contemporary Worship" -- strong associations not only with pagan and secular sources producing the music itself, not only of strong associations with heterodox church bodies that make use of the contemporary genre, but of its inherent ability to teach and reinforce false doctrine. The lyrics of so-called "Contemporary Worship" aren't bad primarily because the theology of its authors is bad, the lyrics are bad principally because they don't matter -- the experience produced by the use of this music, all by itself, regardless of the words, is not only sufficient but necessary to teach and reinforce their false doctrines regarding the Holy Spirit and the Means through which He works. There is no such thing as amoral music, and Contemporary advocates in America exploit this fact in their own interest.
I would further argue that invocation of "eating meat sacrificed to idols" is incomplete in the application given to it, above. Mention of this was not intended by Paul as a tool for identifying and ridiculing those with a supposedly weak conscience. The point is, whether anyone is known to have a weak conscience or not, if association of the meat to paganism is publicly known, don't eat it because of the offense such eating would create. Tunes by Wagner -- without the words he wrote to accompany them, I might add -- create offense. We don't use these tunes. Given the popularity of his wedding march, it is incredible to me that none of our talented Lutheran lyricists haven't written suitable words for it, if that is all that is required in order to make it suitable. Nevertheless, if, all by themselves, tunes written by Wagner ~150 years ago are still strong enough in their association with pagan themes to create offense, the tunes by Holst do as well -- more so given that Holst is a much more recent composer, that The Planets is much more popular among average folks these days than any of Wagner's works, and that his intentions with the music, and the stories he succeeds in telling with it, are so transparent and direct.
My opinion,
Freddy Finkelstein
If you object to this, do you also object to the use of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Fourth Movement in the hymn "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee"? The original text that goes along with that music in the choral symphony is pure humanism: "Men can join together to fix all the world's problems."
Spiritual growth and maturity entails overcoming religious superstitions, paganism and bigotry. They were taught to you as much to control you as to share the Word of God.
Consider the sinful nature's constant inclination in this discussion: It is dead in transgressions and sin; it in turn corrupts everything I think, say, and do; in turn, it turn, it is always being corrupted by devil and world. Anything and everything the sinful nature encounters, whether music, art, or photography, affects one's sinful nature and that sinful nature is in turn effects its sinful response.
The Means of Grace alone are the tool of the Spirit to call, gather, enlighten, sanctify and keep Christ's Church in the one true faith. When the Word is preached in its truth and purity, and the Sacraments rightly administered, through faith the new Adam is renewed. The old Adam is drowned only by the Law's exposure of, and condemnation of the sinner his fruits.
Daily, moment by moment, the struggle goes on. Lord have mercy on us, sinners that we most certainly are. Free us from our pride, foolishness, and fear through the merit of Your Son.
garycepek@yahoo.com
I.J. Reilly asks: do you also object to the use of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Fourth Movement in the hymn "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee"?
Yes, I do, and for the same reasons. The final movement of Beethoven's Ninth is, by far, more well known as a herald of agnosticism than an instrument of worship to the One, True God. Adopting it as an anthem of Christian worship is, at best, an awkward and mostly unsuccessful attempt to co-opt overtly and deliberately agnostic art as sacred expression. Believe it or not, strange as it may seem, I have run into many Christians, even in pop-church Evangelicalism, who strongly dislike it. When they sing "Joyful, Joyful" they know they are really singing two different things at the same time.
For that matter, I also disfavor the use of Sibelius' hymn, Finlandia, originally included in his nationalistic symphony of the same name, but later re-written by him as a stand-alone hymn for use in Masonic rituals. It was later used as a national hymn and also incorporated by Scandinavians into church hymnody. Pretty song? Yes. Unfortunately, it carries with it far too much secular and Masonic baggage to be suitable as Christian worship, in my opinion.
Christians are far better off using original art for the purposes of Christian worship.
Combining "Thaxted" and the lyric of "Jerusalem the Golden" makes for romance and emotion.
The fourth movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony and either the original lyric or the Joyful lyric are also to stir up human emotion.
Emotion is not a useful conveyance for the Word because of its temporary nature. Neither of those tunes should have added words to given them religious connotations. They need to stay in their pagan and secular realms.
The words of the lyric and its poetry come first. The musical setting for that poetry must only accompany and not out-shout the lyric as it does in both the Beethoven and this arrangement of Jerusalem.
The Beethoven theme has become trite and so will the Holst theme.
Freddy Finkelstein, Chief Little Hat, and raklatt, say it like it is, for us all who ARE orthodox, confessing Lutherans... Thanks guys for saying what you did, for us all. AMEN.
What you need to understand is that you can use words to any tune. It is adiaphora. It is neither commanded nor forbidden in the Scriptures. Jesus in his day did not sing to any particular tunes that we use now. So who are we to say that we are to restrict what type of music is or is not put to good doctrinal words. The spirit works through the means, Word and Sacrament. That includes the Gospel in the form of music. It can be music to rap, pop, etc. Would those be good choices, probably not, are they wrong, of course not.
When one is troubled by such things, turn to Scripture. Nowhere does it say singing Jerusalem the Golden to "Thaxed" or whatever the tune might be, is against the will of God. Therefore get off your pious butts and join in on the song. It has a great message that any Christain will be comforted by hearing it. Don't worry what the tune is, worry what the words say. If the words are correct, it shouldn't matter what the tune is.
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