More Evidence from Pastor Tim Glende (Groeschel Emerging Liberal Cult)

From Pastor Tim's websty:

"But Christ Teaches:

Because Christ paid the penalty for our sins on the cross, God now looks on us as his innocent children. Although we continue to struggle with sin, in God’s eyes we are completely justified. This forgiveness of sins Christ won for us on the cross is completely and totally a free gift from God (Eph. 2:8,9). In no way, shape, or form do we deserve the gift, there is nothing we can do to accept the gift, and we cannot even cooperate with God in the reception of the gift (Eph. 2:8-9). Instead, God the Spirit works faith in our hearts to receive this gift of justification (1 Cor. 2:14). This is what Paul means when he says that we have been saved “by grace” (Eph. 2:8). Christ teaches that believers were chosen for salvation before creation (Eph. 1:4-6) but Christ does not teach that unbelievers were chosen for damnation before creation. Rather, the rejection of this gift is entirely the result of each person’s own will and has nothing to do with God’s will. Christ wishes all to be saved and gave his life for every person in the entire world (John 3:16)."

Does the Word of God teach this?

KJV John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If the wrath of God abides on unbelievers, then God is not looking on them as "innocent children" (an odd phrase by itself) and as "already justified."

The fake Ichabod has a lot in common with Tim Glende, including an obsession with promoting UOJ.

This peculiar form of Midwestern Universalism is easily blended with the emerging church types who really have no doctrine. Groeschel grew up United Methodist (no doctrine) attended a Disciples seminary (extreme Left - they teach jointly with Unitarians in Indiana), and began working with Andy Stanley, a stealth Babtist.

The fake Ichabod condemns reading Lenski, but Glende copies Groeschel verbatim. He hides this on his websty because he knows that my research team downloads and keeps documents as evidence. Those who attend St. Peter in Freedom, Wisconsin are confronted with an all-Groeschel congregation, including bulletin inserts.

We all know from the past that Glende lies to his congregation. He pretends to be going to WELS pastoral conferences when he is going to Andy Stanly and Marc Driscoll (cussing pastor) events. Bishop Katie got the picture of Tim and Ski gorging themselves when they were all out to learn from Driscoll.

UOJ are Antinomian legalists. There is no Law, but they apply their man-made law to everyone else. For example, Glende can attend all kinds of unionistic religious worship services. Why is that?

The fake blogger seems terrified that someone might read the commentary (Lenski) that every WELS seminary student buys, but Glende has no problem with Stanley, Groeschel, Driscoll, and who knows what else.

The fake blogger hides his identity. Glende stopped Twitter (supposedly) once I began reading his Tweets and reporting them. Bishop Katie kept on and gave great descriptions about what they and five other WELS workers were doing at unionistic worship conferences.

A pastor must be apt to teach, but Glende has shown himself to be as inept as the fake blogger, which is why I think he is the fake. Here is Glende stumbling through a little Christology:

"But Christ Teaches:
When our imperfect natures made us unable to keep God’s law, Jesus was sent by the Father to fulfill the law for us (Matt. 5:17). Since God is Jesus’ father, Jesus is one-hundred percent God and completely sinless. At the same time, by being born from a virgin woman he became one-hundred percent human at the same time as God. Even though completely God, he took on the form of a servant and laid aside his full godly powers. Therefore, he endured suffering, temptation, and humbled himself to a shameful death (Phil. 2:7,8). By suffering and dying, Jesus took the punishment that should have been ours, and through his perfect obedience he became a ransom for us (Isa. 53:6, Matt. 20:28). This is why Christians proclaim that the forgiveness of sins has been gained entirely through Jesus, that God has literally justified all people (2 Cor. 5:21). On the third day after his death, he rose from the dead and ascended, assuring us that he was who he claimed to be and that our sins were certainly forgiven (Rom. 4:25)."

I do not know where to start, except to wonder in awe and astonishment that he graduated from any Lutheran seminary. But wait, he played football, and that trumps everything else in WELS.

Tim tries to hide a lot. Why is he ashamed of Stanley and Driscoll, if they are the salvation of WELS?

He cannot hide his inability to grasp and teach the basics of the Faith. Too bad he grew up under the odious influence of Floyd Luther Stolzenburg.

Episcopal Hip Hop - With Their Own Bishop Katie - Flanked The CORE (WELS)

Bishop Cathy Roskam of New York feels the beat on the streets of the Bronx at the Trinity Hip Hop Mass July 2 (Matthew Davies/ENS) Bishop Cathy Roskam of New York with D. Cross at the Trinity Hip Hop Mass July 2. (Matthew Davies/ENS)

Episcopal News Service
Pipes and Pedals in Los Angeles, Hip Hop in New York
Parliament of the World's Religions to open July 7 in Barcelona
To Read: GIVE US GRACE: An Anthology of Anglican Prayers




- - -

'Go forth and tell it like it is':

Roskam raps at Hip Hop Mass

By Matthew Davies

[ENS, New York, July 6, 2004] Picture this: an altar; an earth-shattering sound system; people of all ages "jamming to the groove"; and an Episcopal bishop rapping and feeling the beat. It�s the revolutionary liturgical outreach unfolding in the Bronx and it�s taking religion to the streets in the language of today -- Hip Hop!


"My sistas and brothas, all my homies and peeps, stay up -- keep your head up, holla back, and go forth and tell like it is." With this proclamation, Bishop Suffragan Cathy Roskam of New York sent people on their way at the Bronx's third Hip Hop Mass, held Friday, July 2 at Trinity Church of Morrisania.

The new civil rights
Honoring the founders of hip hop, the three-hour extravaganza attracted some big names in the genre, including the legendary Kurtis Blow, King of Rap; Cool Clyde, True Pioneer of Rap; Jeannine Otis, Rap Hall of Famer; and the human beatbox, rapper D. Cross.
The initiative behind the Hip Hop Mass came from Trinity Church's rector, the Rev. Tim Holder, after listening to young people in his neighborhood. "This is the first time anything like this has happened on the East Coast," he said. "Hip hop is the culture; it's the people. When it began it was all about speaking to the oppressor. Hip hop is the new civil rights."

Two dozen Episcopal, Lutheran, Protestant and Roman Catholic clergy and lay people have so far joined in the development and celebration of the Hip Hop Mass, including Bishop Don Taylor of New York, who offered a blessing at the first ever street mass on June 11.

Trinity Church has a regular congregation of 150 on a Sunday morning, consisting primarily of young people. "We needed to grow and open the doors," Holder said. "So, in addition to events such as the Hip Hop Mass, we started offering a breakfast after the 8 a.m. Eucharist as there are many kids around here who really appreciate that."

Roskam and Holder spoke about their hopes and goals for the Trinity Hip Hop Mass. "We want to sing the 'new song' of Jesus Christ in the vernacular and language of our younger generations," they said. "We hope that the Trinity Hip Hop will serve as a model for other parishes and communities throughout the city and the church."

The Rev. Martha Overall, rector of St. Ann's Episcopal Church, South Bronx, and a member of the Hip Hop Mass working group which has been meeting for three months, said, "Many children often attend services in the Bronx without their parents. They literally understand that there is something good for them there."

Education and positive messages
DJ Lightning Lance, who with his cousin Cool Clyde recorded the first "scratch" on vinyl, highlighted the message that hip hop should be delivering. "It's not about money or fancy cars or bling bling [jewelry]," he said. "It's about education and speaking for the oppressed."

Agreeing with Lightning Lance, Clyde said that hip hop is about positive messages. "It's a tool we use to escape violence and do positive things with," he said. "We want to tell this to the whole world." To cheers from the congregation, Clyde proposed that everyone gets together to create a hip hop museum in the Bronx to honor the roots of its culture.

Kurtis Blow, the first commercially successful rap artist and author of The History of Rap [http://www.rhino.com/Features/liners/72851lin.html], thanked the Lord that he was able to attend the Trinity Hip Hop Mass. "It's truly a blessing to see all this materialize," he said. "It's the first time I've ever seen anything like this -- hip hop religion in the Bronx." Blow, instrumental in raising up a generation of rappers, declared that he had been looking for a church home and said that, after witnessing Trinity Church, he'd be at the 8 a.m. service. "I'm shivering inside; I feel the Holy Spirit in this room," he said. "I'm going to make it a mission of mine to let everyone in the Bronx know that this is happening. This church is going to grow."

Assemblyman Ruben Diaz Jr., a Bronx Democrat, said hip hop is a way of life and is about putting emotions into rhythm, beat and dance. "Hip hop needs to be used in education," he said. "If you ask a student to write a song about civil rights they'll learn more than you could ever teach them. We need to attract our youth and young people back to the church."

During the sermon, Roskam spoke about what hip hop means to her and the message that it conveys. "I had always been aware of hip hop but I've learned so much about it from this neighborhood," she said. "The best of the hip hop tradition is love, pride and respect. Jesus taught us to love our enemies. We need to preach the whole word of Jesus, and that is to love everybody. Love wins in the end and that's where our victory is."

The Master Mix and Master Missal, written, adapted and arranged by members of Trinity's congregation and people drawn from the community, translated sections of the Book of Common Prayer into a more colloquial representation of hip hop culture. One of the leading lights of the translation effort is Lamont, a teenager from St. Paul's Church in the Bronx, who wrote the Pontifical Hip Hop Blessing to conclude the mass. Lamont said the mass is a great way to meet new people and show off the best of hip hop culture in the Bronx.

Other highlights included versions of the 23rd Psalm, adapted by Ryan Kearse, and the confession, adapted by Tom Mercer.

The 23rd Psalm
The Lord is all that, I need
For nothing
He allows me to chill.
He keeps me from being heated
And allows me to breathe easy.
He guides my life so that
I can represent and give
Shouts out in his Name.
And even though I walk through
The Hood of death,
I don't back down
For you have my back.
The fact that you have me covered
Allows me to chill.
He provides me with back-up
In front of my player-haters
And I know that I am a baler
And life will be phat
I fall back in the Lord's crib
For the rest of my life.

Confession and Absolution
Merciful God
We confess we have sinned against You and our Neighbor.
We have not done right by You.
We have not done right
by other people.
We are sorry.
We want to change.
Remember Jesus, Your Son.
Have mercy and forgive us.
From now on may we try to do what you want,
To the glory of Your Name. Amen.

It's Cool.
God has forgiven you.
It's a done deal!
The Bronx outreach follows other hip hop ministries in Episcopal congregations, notably at St. Stephen's, Hollywood, California, among others. Friday hip hop masses run 5-8 p.m. until July 23 at East 166th St and Trinity, South Bronx.
--Matthew Davies is staff writer of Episcopal News service


***

GJ - All things considered, most would prefer polka!

ELCA Hampered in Its Spread of Apostasy by Lack of Funds

Mark Hanson is straight -
He was featured on BadVestments


ELCA BLUES SERVICE
August 6, 2010
ELCA Churchwide Organization Details 2010 Budget Reductions


CHICAGO (ELCA) -- The Aug. 4 actions by the Church Council of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) to reduce the 2010 current fund spending authorization for the churchwide organization affected a variety of ministries, especially those administered by the five program units of the church.

The council reduced this year's churchwide current fund spending authorization by $4.2 million to $65.1 million, a reduction of 6.1 percent from the previously authorized $69.3 million. The council is the ELCA's board of directors and interim legislative authority between churchwide assemblies.

There were no staff reductions in this revised spending authorization, said the Rev. M. Wyvetta Bullock, ELCA executive for administration.

Nearly three-fourths of the churchwide organization's funding is assigned to its five program units. Funding in those units reduced by the council action is as follows:
+ Evangelical Outreach and Congregational Mission, $400,000
+ Global Mission, $448,000
+ Multicultural Ministries, $94,870
+ Church in Society, $131,000
+ Vocation and Education, $592,000

Specific ministries and programs affected by the reductions in these units were international scholarship grants, the elimination of some unassigned funding for starting new congregations, significant reductions in grants to colleges and universities, and smaller decreases in seminary and campus ministry grants, Bullock said. Other reductions include decreases in program activities, general office, administrative costs, and position vacancies, she said.

Other churchwide units, including the Office of the Presiding Bishop and subunits, Office of the Secretary, Office of the Treasurer and subunits, plus the service units, Communication Services and Development Services, were reduced a combined total of nearly $627,000.

Other reductions were $1.7 million from the general treasury and $200,000 in a strategic initiative fund.

Nearly all of the reductions came from a decline in mission support funds, which are provided by congregations through synods to churchwide ministries, said Christina Jackson-Skelton, ELCA treasurer. She reported that through June 30 mission support income declined about $3.7 million or about 15 percent from the same period in 2009. By the end of 2010, Jackson-Skelton said she expects mission support income to be about $51 million, nearly $9 million less than what was remitted in 2009.

Reasons for the decreases in mission support income were attributed to economic instability that continues to affect all parts of the church, compounded by some unfavorable responses to the 2009 ELCA Churchwide Assembly actions on sexuality.

Bullock explained that ELCA churchwide organization leaders have been spending below approved levels and have engaged in ongoing financial contingency planning. That process will continue to identify further reductions if needed.

In a related but separate process, the churchwide organization is involved in an organizational redesign process announced earlier this summer, a response to continuing declines in income. A committee of the churchwide organization, working with outside consultants, the Church Council executive committee, the Conference of Bishops and the Living Into the Future Together (LIFT) task force, is creating a plan to restructure the churchwide organization to align its work with anticipated income. Details of the redesign process are expected to be announced toward the end of September.

Killing Us Softly with UOJ

This photo is the work of the Appleton blogger, who loves UOJ and Church Growth.
Pastor Tim Glende has not answered if he is the fake blogger and Anonymouse.

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Bored-Again Lutheran":

Mr. Bored touches on an interesting fact. That Objective Justification as it's falsely confessed in the Lutheran Synods is not openly taught to congregations. When Pastor DP Buchholz necromanced it during a sermon it was the first I had heard it from him after two + years. And that, I believe, was prompted by Gurgle asking him to give his 2005 conference paper. It is, after all, one half of their central doctrine of faith. Something is rotten in Denmark. They are afraid to openly and publicly testify to the scope and breadth of this false teaching. They communicate it softly every now and then but it's seldom heard and caught by the few alert laity over the purring of the congregation. The majority of the laity have never heard the term or the full teaching - this we confess and this we condemn concerning UOJ. I seriously hope that Dr. Jack Kilcrease, if he can maintain his self confidence long enough, publishes a book on UOJ so that more people are exposed to everything that is being taught and confessed.

Mr. Bored, a good approach would be to take a copy of Siegbert W. Becker's Justification essay to your pastor and say, "Pastor XYZ, I've heard you confess your belief in Universal Objective Justification. Having studied this doctrine by reading our WELS This We Believe confession, DP Buchholz' 2005 Conference essay and SW Becker's often referenced paper (include Mark Zarling and H.A. Preus if applicable) I contend that it teaches another gospel than Scripture teaches, confuses Christ's atonement with the distribution of Christ's righteousness to the whole unbelieving world for the forgiveness of sins, destroys the faith given by grace of the Holy Ghost and so much more. Can we talk about this? I've brought SW Becker's essay as a good starting point since his defence of UOJ is also a defense of the Kokomo statements and a rejection of Justification by Faith alone."

A Pastor who is not in on the deception will be more than happy to talk about it. One who is complicit in the deception will be annoyed, arguementative and demeaning. That comes with the territory since the Christ, the Holy Ghost, God only dwells in His children who are heirs to eternal life through faith in Christ alone and confession of the pure doctrine of Justification by faith alone. The others do not have Christ because of a confession in a false gospel and are led by their father below - thus the violent reception to discussing Justification as taught by Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.

You'll even find some who warmly welcome the discussion initially then when they realize the implications of what has been done with UOJ they will make a choice between Christ or men and the result will be reflected in their appearance and attitude.

In Christ,
Brett Meyer

***

GJ - Because the UOJ Stormtroopers are Antinomians, nothing is too low for them. Wherever they appear on the Internet, they are deceptive, vicious, and cowardly. Their lack of scruples is matched only by their bad manners. And yet they howl with faux-pain about anything truthful.

Twins Explained as Plagiarism

Bored-Again Lutheran

Old Lutherans prefer good spelling.

bored has left a new comment on your post "Still Clueless":

Of course my comment was purposefully inflicted with spelling and grammar errors. I thought I'd been sufficiently thorough to avoid an explanation. Good night KFax! Your first clue should've been that I referenced spell-check's 'little red line' underneath misspelled words. To wit, if I possessed the wit to write that, wouldn't it seem obvious that I purposefully ignored those 'little red lines' in my own comment? Please don't apply your own standard to me. But hey, I'm not looking for a fight.

The WELS deficiency in spelling and grammar is a symptom of a larger overarching problem in that synod. For a long time, their Modus Operandi has seemed to be to willfully minimize the importance of the 'little things'. At least, I think so. They change the pronouns in the Creeds. We can guess it was done to be less paternalistic. "Oh, it's no big deal", they say. "It doesn't detract, and it might make those with a modern mindset more comfortable". Likewise, it's not unimaginable that the WELS began to use the NIV because it's problems were "only minor", or that the NIV's so-called benefits overshadowed its problems. There's a long list of very important little things that are commonly ignored or purposefully ejected. Maybe that could be the Ichabod-reader contest? To compile a list of "little things" that the WELS has gone soft on?

Of course there's the big problem with Universal Justification, but could it be that all the loss of the important little things allowed the nastiness of Universal Objective Justification to express itself? That's just a hypothesis, of course. I've been trying to make sense of the fact that a good number of Confessional Pastors claim to believe UOJ. The Confessional Pastors to whom I'm referring pay a lot of attention to the little things, and maybe this keeps them on line with a true teaching of Justification. I suppose I'm saying something pretty obvious, but my curiosity for causation (of this hip trend towards apostasy) leads me to pose the question anyway. In any event, if the fastidious translation of ancient sacred texts is unimportant, it's probably too rediculous to require accurate spelling. (Yes KFax, I misspelled rediculous on porpoise)

Another question: what is the best way to approach my pastor, who claims to believe UOJ (in private, when I inquire), even though he continues to correctly teach Justification?

***

GJ - Ask him how often he reads Ichabod. That is a good conversation-starter.

Good Follow Up for Satan's Sex Ed at The CORE (WELS) - Satan Figure Distributing Holy Communion

Catholic Mass - note the male Satan figure too.

WELS/ELS did not have the spine to ban women consecrating Holy Communion, a practice started by Larry Olson's Fuller-inspired Staff Ministry program.

"Resist the beginnings." Lenski.

This Halloween Mass would be a good follow up after doing Satan's Sex Ed. Fortunately, WELS has a number of women already playing the role of pastor, so donning a red wig and horns would not be too much of a leap.

---

Dan at Necessary Roughness has left a new comment on your post "Good Follow Up for Satan's Sex Ed at The CORE (WEL...":

"For our faith and the sacrament must not be based on the person, whether he is godly or evil;, consecrated or unconsecrated, called or an imposter, whether he is the devil or his mother, but upon Christ, upon his word, upon his office, upon his command and ordinance." -- LW 38, 200.

The Purpose of the Confessions

Martin Chemnitz, Concordist, argued in effect,
"Our truth is the truth of the ages,"
not the truth of the moment.

Recent posts from WELS members show they have no concept of the Confessions.

The Ecumenical Creeds are the Apostles, the Nicene, and the Athanasian. The Apostles Creed is so old that no one knows the exact origin. Each phrase is from the Scriptures. The Nicene Creed is the result of bitter controversy over the Two Natures of Christ.

Like the Apostles Creed, the Athanasian Creed has mysterious origins. The newest of the Ecumenical Creeds is over 16 centuries old.

They are called Ecumenical Creeds because the entire Christian Church uses them or accepts them. WELS covets anti-confessional sects that do not use the Creeds in worship, but those denominations (Babtist, Mission Covenant, Ev. Free, United Methodist) are not opposed to the three Creeds. Didja ever wonder why the Creeds disappear from Shrinker services? They emulate the Enthusiasts in abandoning the Creeds.

When we recite the Creeds, we are confessing the truth of the Word of God, with the believers of all ages, all nationalities. Every Lutheran should be familiar with the three Ecumenical Creeds and recite them during a calender year. They begin the Book of Concord to show that Lutherans are confessing the truth of the ages.

Therefore, WELS is arrogant to pretend that their tiny sect can alter a Creed to satisfy its misbegotten feminist agenda. The Nicene Creed does not belong to WELS by virtue of being used in previous hymnals. The Athanasian Creed, which was also butchered, did not originate with the Wisconsin unionists who gathered together in 1850, 15 centuries after the fact.

A non-believer or believer should hear the same confession of faith, regardless of denomination. There may be slight changes in wording, but a wholesale slaughter is the same as saying, "We can do whatever we want."

Liturgical traditions are extremely conservative. That is why a lectionary from a much later date is just as valuable to a text critic as a manuscript from an earlier time. Churches and synagogues have been loathe to change wording for the sake of novelty.

Once started, what prevents a sect from avoiding the male terms altogether in a future edition of the unionistic creeds? WELS is simply following a trend set by the LCA/ALC in placing themselves over the Word of God as judges of His revelation.

Lenski said, "Resist the beginnings."

"We did it before and we can do it again" was a great WWII motto, but it is death to a Lutheran synod.

Anyone can glance around and see that WELS, Missouri, and the ELS are not confessional Lutheran bodies. They are far more serious about confessing Fuller or Rome than agreeing with the Book of Concord. The CLC (sic) is simply worse - more hypocritical, more immoral, more corrupt.

See Sasse on this point. Missouri treated him like dirt.

All the apostasy trends of 25 years ago are stronger than ever now. This process is similar to politics. People become de-sensitized to the latest vulgarity and error, so new steps can be taken in the same direction.

As several posted, "I don't see what is wrong with the WELS Creeds."

That is the problem.

More Inspiration for Appleton

Not possible, you say? This is from one of the oldest congregations in the US - Episcopalian.
Alexander Hamilton is buried at this church.
Trinity-Wall Street Episcopal Church.

---

The clown: symbol of "divine foolishness".

Note to Self: Bring Big Floppy Shoes and Round Red Nose to Church May 22

April 27, 2005

Dear Parish Family,

On May 22, Trinity Sunday, we will have a Clown Eucharist, "doing church" as if we were a circus come to town. We will celebrate the Eucharist and learn about the basic traditional outline for Eucharistic worship by experiencing it and participating in it from a new perspective.

It will likely be a surprise to see clowns inside Trinity Church, but think about it this way: how we perceive the world in light of our relationship with Jesus could rightly be called foolish. Jesus looked at things in a new and strange way - a foolish way. But, as St. Paul said, the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of the world. Paul declared himself a fool for Christ's sake.

He held that in common with a Trinity clergyman of years ago, who I understand would walk up and down Wall Street at noon carrying a sandwich board printed with the words: “I’m a fool for

Christ.” The back of his board read, “Whose fool are you?”

We are all fools of one sort or another. God’s foolishness is light, joy, and life. Man’s foolishness is darkness, despair, and death. In the clown, God has shot from his cannon for us a vivid symbol of divine foolishness.

Clowns represent the underdog, the lowly, the remnant people. Their foolishness is a call to unpretentiousness. They take incredible risks - balancing on tight ropes, eating fire, keeping silent, being poked by others, or getting soaked in water. Clowns are parables in themselves, spending great amounts of energy uncovering small things, then showing forth the hidden treasure of life (like the kingdom of God) and, surprisingly to us, giving their most cherished possessions to others.

In rodeos, clowns protect people. In other scenarios, the clown may be down and out, but he is also continually raised up by a spirit within, lifting our own spirits as he overcomes life's stumbling blocks. Clowns look at the world, like parables, inside out and upside down: the last shall be first, the smallest seed is the greatest tree, and those who work all day get paid the same as those who worked an hour. To the world, this is foolishness.

Yet foolishness—the foolishness of God—is wiser than man. It brings light, laughter, joy, renewal, salvation, and life. Whose fool are you?

Years ago, I saw a film created by the Rev. Floyd Shaffer on clown ministry and worship. I hope you will find the opportunity to read his recent book, If I Were a Clown , prior to our worship together on May 22.

All are invited to come in clown dress, big hats, floppy shoes or some sort of foolish garb. Those watching on the Internet might even be foolish enough to put on some white face or a big grease-paint smile as we worship God and learn about the structure of the Eucharist by being the circus which came to town and to church on that day. I look forward to worshiping with you.

Faithfully,
Jim Cooper

Finkelstein on the Pagan Puppet Parade

This Appleton icon would make a good puppet.
Many lessons could be learned.
Real. Relational. Relevant.

Freddy Finkelstein has left a new comment on your post "Steal This, Appleton - I Need Another Belly-Laugh":

Worship reduced to pure spectacle. You can see it written on the faces, and in the actions, of the onlookers in the audience-- "onlookers in the audience" being folks who, in times past, might have been referred to as "worshipers." Now they are consumers of spectacle, the same as if they were sitting in front of the television on Super Bowl Sunday. It is revolting. The reactions of the children are the dead giveaway. They are honest, in an innocent sort of way, when innovation is thrust upon them -- "look at this strange thing and that strange thing, one after the other!" Almost like I feel sometimes after I have been duped into visiting a Lutheran CGM congregation.

Freddy Finkelstein

***

GJ - What prevents the Emerging Church model from doing the same? Nothing. "Worship is mostly adiaphora." WELS lay leader.

Steal This, Appleton - I Need Another Belly-Laugh

Presbyterians. Don't quit until the skunks come in.

Still Clueless

Not funny.


KFax has left a new comment on your post "Clueless in West Wachagootchie":

You're hardly one to criticize anyone for wasting their time or being juvenile, Pastor. Or for being a faux pastor, for that matter.

As far as bored's mess goes, you can make up whatever reason you like, and hide it with as many personal insults as you want. I could really care less.

It's sad, I agree with you on so many things such as the sadness of Church Growth and especially UOJ. But you are such a bitter, spiteful person, and you would reach so many more hearts about these important issues if you just went about it in a different way, and didn't mock everyone who debates with you at every possible chance.

***

GJ - Bored will have to back me up on this.

KFax is such a charmer. He could have been on Team Ichabod, but my sense of humor alienated him from a noble cause. Being against CG and UOJ does not require an IQ over room temperature. The trouble is, most WELS pastors lack that one attribute - or pretend to be stupid. I am not kidding. They end debates with "I am fat and stupid" (meaning I won't discuss it) or "I don't remember that."

I don't know who knocked  the specimen jar into this Wheaties, but he sure got testy the last few days, regular posting after an unlamented absence.

Faint Praise for Gaba

Name the WELS church - not Grace, but another Church and Money Changer operation.


west59wy (http://west59wy.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Gaba Does Grace, Milwaukee - Home of Fuller-traine...":

Deacon Gaba's comments are perceptive both for what is said and what isn't admitted.

First, is his critique of liturgical vestments, posture and bearing. It reminds me about what a certain LC-MS blogger pastor commented after viewing archived filmed footage of the dedication of the St. Louis seminary. Said blogger was struck by how the celebrants were attired in business suits, i.e. Gaba's "liturgical ineptitude." He was thankful for how far the LC-MS had come since that time. I conclude he meant chasubles, collars, albs, stoles, capes, copes, hose and a hundred other types of ecclesiastical foppery. That being said, the WELS, even when it tries to be "liturgical"--for example, "Grace church" which prides itself in its liturgical expressiveness--comes across with all the aplomb of a hillbilly's mullet.

On the other extreme, is the sector of the LC-MS with which Deacon Gaba is apparently so enamored. That can only be indentified in terms of Romanizing tendencies, chancel prancing, and ridiculously arcane codicils of rubric interpretation which direct the way the pastor is turn, genuflect, and land a triple axle. It's the sector from which Rev.Fr.Dr.Sir.Esq.Pr. Fenton, he of Gottesdienst fame, like others before (sic - missing pronoun) jumped to swim the Bosphorus. However, there is something to be said (sic - missing word) the DG's observation about a church operating a coffee shop. I suppose it is, in principal, no different than the combination oil and lube/coffee shop which recently opened up down the street. Whatever it takes to get 'em in. And some believe people can't see that for what it is? Give me a break!

***

GJ - Those who refuse to police themselves will find themselves examined closely. Any discussion of WELS should begin with Valleskey becoming seminary president after endorsing Fuller Seminary's doctrine in the gushing tones of a schoolgirl smitten by Johnnie Depp or the sainted Michael Jackson. Just as bad - Huebner was elected Number Two in WELS after spending his entire career promoting his alma mater, Fuller Seminary. The Soul Cafe coffee shop is just one example. His "parish consultant" scams are another. WELS cannot condemn what they love so dearly, what the ELS silently approves while claiming confessional status.

Gaba is a wee bit too Roman for me. I highlighted the remarks which were right on target.

Missouri is going Roman as a solution to 30+ years of Fuller promotion. I do not see one form of Enthusiasm as superior to the other.

Liturgical worship is still a concern. As I mentioned in the latest sermon, youth meetings at my LCA church consisted of learning a service from the hymnal (Vespers, for instance) and singing hymns. We also had progressive dinners and other social events, but never a dance at church. The annual youth service was limited to youth leading the historic liturgy. No one even suggested Rock N Roll, even though we were in the Elvis to Beatles generation. No one imagined going to church to be entertained.

We had Swedish egg coffee because Salem was a Swedish Augustana congregation. That also meant an abundance of Swedish pastries, which I took for granted until I lived in non-Swedish areas.

Gaba noticed that Huebner has introduced a number of Reformed elements into the Sunday service, not to mention the Moneychanger's cafe. Huebner is a Church and Money Changer - no shock there.

Gaba's criticisms are not nullified by his extreme Romanism. The disgust many Lutherans feel about Fullerism is the prostitution of the Sunday service:

1. The lack of Holy Communion comes from the effort to turn worship into a recruiting service. The sacrament offends non-Lutherans, so the sacrament is made scarce - like the Confessions.
   
2. Introducing the Scripture lessons is derived from the Reformed view of the Word. Huebner has mocked the efficacy of the Word in print, but has never been disciplined. Instead he has been rewarded for his union theology. The people in the pews are idiots, according to the Reformed Fuller Seminary view. They need the Word of God explained to them before it is read. Calvin would grin in approval.
   
3. The coffee shop is a felt-needs gimmick, like free coffee and cookies at the bank. Reformed methods are all gimmicks. Add gimmicks to the Lutheran Church and it becomes Reformed because the motivation is pure Enthusiasm. At Victory of the Movie Theater (WELS), visitors are given a drink and a snack as they enter the service.
   
4. Mocking Gaba's extreme high church tendencies does not rescue WELS from the charge of promoting and rewarding false doctrine. Huebner, Valleskey, Jeske, Kelm, Bivens, Sorum, and Olson are prime examples of WELS Orthodoxy equaling Fuller/Willow Creek apostasy.

The Intrepids have been looking at the elements of a Lutheran worship service. I would favor anything from the range of very simple liturgical services to incense and lace, as long as the Word of God is proclaimed in its truth and purity. Because we are in a confessional crisis, we must avoid appearing Reformed or Roman. I appreciate Gaba's effort in visiting Grace and reporting. It would take a SWAT team to get me into Grace, so the eyewitness account has spared me another day of agony.

Clueless in West Wachagootchie

KFax has left a new comment on your post "English 101 - Editor Edit Thyself":

How come you didn't (sic) Brett or bored? Especially bored, with his absolute slaughtering of the English punctuation system.

Or did Brett really mean that the good doctor "heard" something early this morning? You did a stealthy job of hiding his fourth grade error though.

And please publish my post this time, there's no reason to be afraid of your bias.

***

GJ - Bored did that on purpose, something which the slow-witted failed to notice.

Brett Meyer and Church Lady write better than Paul McCain, MDiv, who is an alleged CPH editor and faux pastor. Brett and Church Lady understand justification, while a significant number of Syn Conference clergy agree with ELCA's crypto-Universalism.

I cannot edit comments posted underneath, but I mentioned long ago that I edit messages from people I like and (sic) the rest. Many find it endlessly amusing that the Wisconsin sect claims a superior educational system while turning out Fuller/Mars Hill clones who cannot spell, parse, or explain the Small Catechism.

I publish juvenile messages like this one just to reveal how some people waste their time.

Gaba Does Grace, Milwaukee - Home of Fuller-trained WELS First VP

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 4, 2010

Coffee & Worship at Grace WELS

This past Lord's Day, after Mass at Saint Stephen's, I mounted my brother's Huffy, and headed north, across the 6th Street Viaduct, and into the Downtown. By the time I got to Juneau Town I was a bit huffy myself, so I decided to stop in at the coffeehouse at Grace, the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran church at the corner of Juneau & Broadway, right across from the old Blatz Brewery (which has been converted into luxury condos). Actually, when I got Downtown I realized that it was earlier in the day than I thought, since we didn't have Bible study this week. So I decided that not only was I going to get something to drink in the Lutheran coffeehouse, but that I would also sit in on their late Mass, which was scheduled to begin about a half hour later.

The coffeehouse.
First I must say that I have never gone into a "Christian" coffeehouse and come out feeling like I had a really satisfying, genuine coffeehouse experience. Perhaps you, dear reader, were not familiar with the phenomenon of the Christianized coffeehouse. Fort Wayne had a couple of them, at least when I lived there. Grace's coffeehouse, Grace Place, is a modern looking facility, with a couple of friendly ladies behind the counter. They made me an adequate cup of cafe mocha. I sat down, relaxed, and read from one of the bibles that were stacked on a shelf. And so there was nothing wrong with the experience, per se. Yet, I ended up concluding that in certain ways it was not unlike those Evangelical coffeehouses I knew in Fort Wayne. Something about them gives me the heebie-jeebies. All things considered, I would rather be a Christian in a real coffeehouse than take the concept of the coffeehouse and "Christianize" it. [GJ - It was the Soul Cafe before!]

Again, I will say that those who were there were competent, and friendly. And I do not impugn the motives of those who decided to start this thing, and those who run it, for I cannot claim to know those motives. I am merely sharing some general thoughts on the concept.

On the one hand, one could say this operation is providing business for Stone Creek's coffee. On the other hand, Grace Church is also, with this coffee shop, providing a nice little business for itself. This leads to a broader question. Ought the Church be about the business of being in business? The answer, to be clear, is no; the Church is healthiest when it focuses on simply being the Church. She serves her children and the world best when she makes sure that Christ her Lord is preached clearly and relentlessly, and when her sacramental life is strong and central. I am not opposed to social activities and groups and programs and clubs rising up within a parish. That is a natural outcome of a lively ecclesial community in the modern world. What I question is when these things become official "ministries" and get organized from the top. All of this is to say that we ought to seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness. Then, all these other things will be added unto us.

The church.
Speaking of those fundamental things, like the Gospel and the sacraments, after I sat down in the church and the service got started, I was disappointed when I realized that it was not, in fact, a Mass at all. It had many of the basic parts of one, but without the Eucharist. This is not hugely surprising, in retrospect, but I was for some silly reason assuming when I entered and sat down, that I would get to see the celebration of the Sacrament of the Altar. So as I say, that was a bit disappointing. Of course, many Missouri Synod churches are likewise negligent in celebrating the Eucharist on a weekly basis. I wonder what Grace's eucharistic schedule is, since I haven't really seen any indication in the printed schedules, or the web site, unless it's published on the web site where I haven't yet seen it.

But before I get ahead of myself, let me say that when I walked into the church, I was greatly impressed by the beauty and upkeep of what is a classic Milwaukee church. It is about the same age as my own church, Saint Stephen's. The present structure of Saint Stephen's, if I recall, was built in 1901. Grace, from what one woman told me, was built in 1900. They are both very good examples of the type of beautiful gothic churches built by Lutherans in Milwaukee at the turn of the twentieth century. Saint Stephen's presently suffers the effects of a deeply declined and depleted parish. Grace, on the other hand, is a very lively parish, which is obviously able and willing to take good care of its physical space. One of the features which I really like is the canopy above the altar, with detailed wood columns. Large stained glass windows in the north and south transepts depict scenes from the life of Christ. There are too many details to recount here, but suffice to say it is a spectacular interior, worthy of the worship of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Upon entering the church, I was immediately greeted by three men. I suppose they were the ushers or "greeters" or what have you. They showed me where to find a worship bulletin, which comprised twelve pages stapled together, with three additional inserts. I entered the nave, and took a moment to look around the church. Then, I took a seat in the back pew. After a few minutes I noticed that the last four or five pews are reserved for families with children, so I got up, and relocated to a spot a few pews up.

At the start time, the younger of the two pastors, Pastor Daron Lindemann, comes to the front of the chancel, attired, curiously, in an alb and a stole. On the one hand, if this were to be the Mass, it would have been appropriate for him to wear a chasuble over that alb (and now I wonder if they use chasubles when they do have the Mass). On the other hand, as I say, after a while I caught on to the fact that this was not to be the Mass; therefore he ought to have worn a surplice instead of the alb. I wonder if any such distinctions are observed at Grace. If not, Grace is not alone (gratia sola non?). Too many Missouri Synod pastors are likewise infected with liturgical ineptitude to the point of not even knowing what to wear. But I digress. Pastor Lindemann stands there in front of the congregation, in what I must say is a weird stance for the chancel of the church, with his arms down at his side, giving an impromptu greeting and summary of the theme of the service. Through the rest of the service he continued to use the same posture, whether walking from one point to another, or reading the lections, or whatever, with his hands down at his side. I suppose he was told somewhere along the line that this would be a natural, or winsome, way in which to conduct himself in the church. It's goofy, and should have been corrected in his first year of seminary.

The service then commences with a hymn, "With the Lord Begin Your Task," an eighteenth century hymn translated in the modern age by W. Gustave Polack. My reaction to this hymn is twofold. First, in general I think the Church could live without hymns that tell us what to do. Hymns, at their best, should combine confessing the faith with prayer to Almighty God, rather than merely ordering us around. After singing a hymn in which I tell myself to begin my task with the Lord, maybe I should go on to sing a hymn in which I tell myself to lift high the cross. Second, it is unnecessary and less than ideal for the Church to sing hymns in which God is addressed by the pronoun "You." Did the makers ofChristian Worship: A Lutheran Hymnal do this to all of its hymns? I could page through it to get that answer, but I'm not that interested.

After the hymn, Pastor Lindemann, who already greeted the people informally, now greets them liturgically. Both this greeting, and the response of the people, are right out of the modern Roman Rite's Novus Ordo:

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.
R. And also with you.

At least the Novus Ordo directs the priest to say the Trinitarian Invocation before doing this greeting.

After an innovative confession of sins, there is the singing of a piece called "Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good," followed by the prayer of the day.

Before reading the Old Testament, Pastor Lindemann gives a little summary of what he will read. Not only is such a practice unnecessary, it is an unfitting, even distracting, intrusion into the liturgy of the Church. He does the same with the Epistle and the Gospel. Before the Epistle the congregation sings a Psalm of the Day, which is done in the modern, irritating style of singing a refrain after about every four or five verses. It was a setting composed by David Cherwien in 2005. It's style is reminiscent of the Hymnal Supplement 98, which I endured at Kramer Chapel. It is also reminiscent of many a modern Roman Catholic Mass I have witnessed, with the music leader trying to motion for everyone to join in the singing.

The sermon was preached by the older pastor, Pastor James Huebner. He preached on the Lord's Prayer. What I like about his preaching is that he has a rather lively manner. It actually seemed that he was preaching to me, and cared about his message. What I did not like was that it was mostly a sermon giving advice on how to pray better, but didn't really say anything about the death of Christ.

After the sermon the congregation stood and confessed the Apostles' Creed. I suppose one good thing about this not being the Mass was that I didn't have to suffer the Nicene Creed as it is printed in that hymnal, a version which constitutes, as far as I know, world Lutheranism's first feminist version of the Nicene Creed.

Then, after an offering was taken (while "What a Friend We Have in Jesus" was played on the piano), there was the Prayer of the Church, which was made up of the parts of the Our Father, interspersed with explanations of those parts. After this prayer, the congregation sang "What a Friend We Have in Jesus."

The service concluded with a concluding prayer, a final blessing, and a hymn, "Lord, Teach Us How to Pray Aright." And just when I thought I got away from "What a Friend We Have in Jesus," it was played as the postlude. Pastor Liundemann asked everyone to greet each other in the pew after the final hymn. I love meeting people, and so forth, but I wanted no part of fraternizing in the holy space of the church, so after the hymn, I slipped out of there. I retrieved my bike, and headed home.

It was an interesting experience, much that was good, and much which I hope that neither I nor anyone else will have to experience again. Over all, Grace does a magnificent job of marketing what they sell. (Already today, for example, I got a post card from them in the mail.) I'm simply less than content, as a traditionalist Lutheran, with what they are selling.

Federal Judge Approves Party in the MLC

PAPER: Judge being gay nonissue during trial...

Factbox: U.S. laws on gay marriage, civil unions

Related News

• Snap Analysis: Gay marriage fight headed to Supreme Court?
  5:05pm EDT
• UPDATE 1-California gay marriage ban overturned
  4:56pm EDT
• California gay marriage ban unconstitutional-court
  4:55pm EDT
• California gay marriage ban overturned - CNN
  4:48pm EDT
• New Chilean gay marriage bill likely to struggle
  Tue, Aug 3 2010

Related Topics

• U.S. »

Wed Aug 4, 2010 5:24pm EDT

(Reuters) - A federal judge in San Francisco on Wednesday struck down California's ban on gay marriage, a ruling that, while it will likely be appealed all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, hands a key victory to gay rights advocates.


The Supreme Court has not taken a case on gay marriage, leaving states to decide on the issue, although the California federal challenge is aimed at eventually reaching the country's top court.

---

Why not? WELS thinks it is cool and fosters deception about the video below, which is back on YouTube.

Party Poopers in the ELCA - Income Heading Down

HerChurch in California may be one reason for the decline in ELCA offerings.
Recent ELCA service - warning - you do not want to read it.
Goddess Rosary - leave that alone too.


ELCA NEWS SERVICE
August 4, 2010

ELCA Council Reduces 2010 Churchwide Spending, Acts on Pensions Resolutions


CHICAGO (ELCA) -- The Church Council of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) revised the 2010 current fund spending authorization for the ELCA churchwide organization to $65.1 million, a mid-year reduction of $4.2 million or 6.1 percent from the previously authorized $69.3 million for 2010.

The council made the decision in open session during a rare conference call meeting Aug. 4. Much of the meeting was held in executive session to discuss background information on finances and personnel, plus an organizational design process and legal matters, said Carlos Peña, Galveston, Texas, ELCA vice president and chair of the council.

The council also formed an ad hoc committee to report to it about reductions in the ELCA Board of Pensions' annuity payments to retired church workers.

The current fund spending reduction for the remainder of 2010 did not result in position or personnel losses, said the Rev. M. Wyvetta Bullock, ELCA executive for administration. Most churchwide unit budgets were reduced between about 1 and 8 percent, according to figures supplied by the ELCA treasurer.

Bullock explained that contingency plans previously developed were used to reduce the 2010 spending authorization. Officers worked with ELCA partner organizations, the executive committee of the council and liaison bishops to the council to finalize the reductions. She said the church wants to maintain its commitment to such things as missionaries and new-start congregations, but the reductions "limit our capacity to increase these numbers."

Nearly all of the $4.2 million reduction was taken from anticipated mission support income provided to the churchwide organization by congregations through the church's 65 synods, said Christina Jackson-Skelton, ELCA treasurer. Through June 30, mission support income declined about $3.7 million or about 15 percent from the same period in 2009, she said.

Sixty synods have remitted 2010 mission support income "unfavorable" to the same period in 2009, according to information supplied to the council.

Mission support income has been in a period of decline since December 2008 after five years of relative stability, according to the council information. Though it is difficult to project mission support income accurately during such periods of economic volatility, the council was told that mission support income by the end of the 2010 fiscal year is expected to be about $51 million. In 2009 actual mission support to the churchwide organization was $59.7 million.

Decreases in mission support income have been caused by the economic instability that continues to affect all parts of the church, compounded by "some unfavorable responses to the 2009 ELCA Churchwide Assembly actions on sexuality," the background materials stated.

Leaders of the ELCA churchwide organization have been spending below approved levels, and have engaged in ongoing financial contingency planning. The contingency planning process "will also continue to identify further reductions, if required," the background information said.

Council discusses redesign, forms ad hoc committee, hears update on congregations
Related to the churchwide organization's financial situation is an organizational redesign process announced by Bullock in a June 21 e-mail to staff. At that time Bullock wrote that the organization will create a plan to restructure the churchwide organization to align its work with anticipated income. The council discussed the plan's progress in executive session.

The council's other action established a representative ad hoc committee to respond to concerns raised by several synods this spring about reductions in annuity payments to retirees.

In 2009 the ELCA Board of Pensions informed some 12,500 plan members receiving benefits from the Participating Annuity and Bridge Fund that it would reduce monthly annuity payments by 9 percent annually over a three-year period. The fund suffered significant losses due to the financial downturn in late 2008 and early 2009, necessitating the reductions.

In response to resolutions from nine synods, the council asked the ad hoc committee to consult with the Board of Pensions to learn more about the decisions it made regarding the annuity and bridge fund. It also asked the committee to explore ways to restore fund losses and increase payments to annuitants and explore ways to mitigate the adverse effects of fund losses. The council asked for a report and possible recommendations at its November meeting.

ELCA Secretary David D. Swartling told the council that, as of Aug. 3, his office had been advised that 504 of 10,239 congregations have taken first votes to terminate their relationships with the ELCA. Of those, 348 passed and 156 failed. Synods have also reported that 212 congregations took second votes to leave the ELCA, of which 199 passed and 13 failed, he said.

Swartling added that of those congregations that have voted to leave, about 75 percent have said they will join Lutheran Congregations for Mission in Christ.

---

8/4/2010
ELCA Church Council trims churchwide budget by $4.2 million

After spending two hours of a two-and one-half hour conference call meeting in closed session Aug. 4, the ELCA Church Council voted in open session to cut the churchwide 2010 current fund spending authorization by 6 percent, from $69.3 to $65.1 million. ELCA Treasurer Christina Jackson-Skelton reported that, through the end of June, 2010 mission support was down $3.7 million (a 15.2 percent reduction) from the same period in 2009.

Wyvetta Bullock, executive for administration, told the council that churchwide was still trying to hold its commitment to new starts and missionaries. "We're not recalling any missionaries," Bullock said, adding that there would be some impact on grants to seminaries and others.

Spread across a variety of churchwide units, the $4.2 million cut affects some more deeply than others: Vocation and Education, down $592,000 (6.28 percent); Global Mission, down $448,000 (3.34 percent); Evangelical Outreach and Congregational Mission, down $400,000 (2.23 percent); Development Services, down $331,050 (22.06 percent); Church in Society, down $131,000 (4.72 percent); and Multicultural Ministries, down $94,870 (7.73 percent).

In a separate action, in response to requests from nine synods, the council established an ad hoc committee to bring to the November 2010 council meeting a report and possible recommendations on ELCA Board of Pensions annuity funding, losses and "steps to mitigate adverse effects of the Fund reductions."

Rollover Incident

English 101 - Editor Edit Thyself

ptmccain

ALPB Contribution Leader

Posts: 642

Dustin

The women of the Concordia Deaconess Conference have had to fight every inch of their way for recognition, the previous admin virtually ignored them, in spite of all it's (sic) rhetoric about the service of women.

***

GJ - Someone on ALPB pointed out that McCain was saying the Barry administration ignored the CDC, since the new one under Harrison has not started. I noticed the freshman English error of turning its into it's.

Someone added - "Nice catch, Jim. It is always fun to catch Paul "Word Master" McCain like that - it doesn't happen often. Well played!"

That is funny, because they missed the Word Master on basic English. I have decided to change the English language the same way. From now on, his will be hi's. I like that - hi's, he'r, and it's.

Abolutely! (another McCainism). Bad punctuation, too - but worthy of absolution since he has to tend so many blogs and Facebook pages.

---

Dr. Jack Kilcrease has left a new comment on your post "English 101 - Editor Edit Thyself":

Wow, you really got him there!

---

Post removed by Jack Kilcrease.

---

bored has left a new comment on your post "English 101 - Editor Edit Thyself":

its to bad that people just belch out there thoughts without editting. (hint to gen Y and Z: the little red line under the word indicates your guilty of mispelling.) This seems like a good arguement that the addition of the internet (or all technology?) in contemporary life is a zero-sum game. Or maybe it's a testament to Newton's third law of Motion? (for every bit of knowledge the internet has made possible an equal amount of ignorance must also be propagated?)

***

GJ - That is funny, Bored. But for real comedy, check out the Church and Money Changers' website. They never fix their mistakes, doctrinal or spelling.

---

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "English 101 - Editor Edit Thyself":

Comment deleted
This post has been removed by the author.

Looks like Jack was here early this morning.

***

GJ -

McCain does not know basic English:

"I think the final wake-up call will be when the ELCA has it's (sic) first homosexually active bishop and when his/her ministry is specifically rejected by a pastor or congregation, appealing to "bound conscience" and having that appeal firmly rejected by ELCA leadership."

ALPB

---

Warning: The ALPB Internet Forum May Be Hazardous to Your Mental and Spiritual Health

Some time back I recommended folks give the American Lutheran Publicity Bureau's online forum a try. I now need to withdraw that recommendation. The ALPB forum is very poorly moderated, and when the ELCA moderator actually ever does attempt to exercise some modicum of control, it is generally to slap wrists with a ruler for not being nice, which apparently in the ELCA is a sin far more serious than doctrinal heresy and moral bankruptcy. The forum has reached the point where it is no better than sites like LutherQuest. There are two very liberal ELCA pastors on the board who dominate every conversation to the point of destroying any possibility of reasonable conversation, one in particular is permitted by the site's moderators to question incessantly every major article of the Christian faith. It is a mess. It is actually a bit like watching a train wreck, it is so awful you can't take your eyes from it, but…you really should. I have, and feel much the better for it.

***

GJ - McCain must love trainwrecks. Now we know why his mental health is impaired. He cannot stop posting on ALPB.

Who pays him to natter all day long across the blogosphere?

And again - today:

"The Church will simply say no and bear whatever consequences there may be for confession of the truth, there woll (sic) be churches willing simply to bow the knee to Baal ."

The Shrinker History of Plagiarism

The Church Growth Movement began in paganism, conceived in lust and born in iniquity.

Don McGavran, Disciples of Christ, borrowed his method from sociology.

When he moved to Fuller Seminary, his method was looking at large churches and copying how they reached that level of attendance. He formulated various "Church Growth principles" and maxims, all of them hilarious, even when cold sober.

The LCMS, WELS, ELS, and ELCA vanguard found themselves invited to Fuller to waste their synod's money on training. That is why all Shrinkers sound alike.

They were trained in copying the same craziness which intoxicated the earliest users.

Bivens, Kelm, Valleskey, and Stadler were out in California early and learning how to plagiarize.

Their buddy Floyd Luther Stolzenburg, thrown out of the LCMS ministry for cause, invented a Church Growth consulting scam (with Roger Zehms, also divorced), so everyone could copy the Schwaermer together.

The premise has been: "If it is a large church, a fast-growing church, then whatever they did will work for us if we do the same."

Parlow and Kelm were known for taking sermons from the Net, giving them as their own, and posting them on the parish website (Fox Valley, naturally) as their own. Once everyone found out, the sermons no longer appeared on the public site.

Ditto, the sermons at St. Peter Freedom (Anonymouse, fake Ichabod, aka Tim Glende). They no longer appear.

The head of WELS technology gave Willow Creek sermons verbatim, until he was exposed. Then he did it all over again. Who paid the price? The member who objected.

Nobody puts CG in the corner - in WELS.

All the cool ideas in WELS, ELS, Missouri, and even the CLC (sic) are plagiarized from the false teachers. They are copy cats, not cool cats. They are too dumb to alter titles enough to mask the origin. I have even tracked them copying graphics from various Schwaermer websites. Lazy, stupid, and false teachers.

The so-called conservative Lutherans have put up with this in the name of protecting the name of Holy Mother Synod. Which group is worse?
1. The false teachers trained at Fuller, Willow Creek, etc?
2. The pastors who mildly object to CG but run interference for the Shrinkers in the name of a smooth-running organization?
3. The minister who do not care and figure it is not their business that wolves are tearing up the flock from within?
4. The lay leaders who carry water for the Shrinkers, protecting the false teachers while getting rid of confessional ones?

Lutherans have planted a garbage tree and it has grown fast, producing garbage fruit with fertile seed.

The Ichaboat in Front of the Ich-abode

Our luxury touring car is a 1994 Lincoln Town Car, bought from John and Anna Dugger (Nineteen and Counting). He is the oldest Duggar child, so we got the newlyweds a baby shirt, for their first child. We had it embroidered "One and Counting."

LPC at Extra Nos thought it was funny that I called our house the Ich-abode. LI nicknamed the car the Ichaboat. As Freddy Finkelstein noted, driving one is like relaxing in the living room.

One of the readers suggested this car which he saw its description and photo on the Internet. Since September it has been almost paid off and only required one important repair. Going Galt (frugal) is much better than the old ways.

Either my eyes are just opened to Town Cars or this is the headquarters of the fan club. We see lots of them around town, and people gush about how much they like them.

I also call it our Geezermobile.

Groeschel Teaches How To Plagiarize Legally

I learned how to kelm at The Sausage Factory.

Kelmed from the Christian Research Network:

Sermon Copying: When The World Has More Integrity Than The Church

Published February 13th, 2009 by Tony Rose in Apologetics, Church Growth Issues, Church Growth Movement, Compromise, Convenient Preaching, General, Pragmatism, Purpose Driven, Seeker Sensitive

When it comes to matters of integrity and decency, the normal course of events it seems, is that the secular culture and the world often condones that which the church condemns. For example, when the world calls adultery an “affair,” justifies divorce without cause, or calls addictions “diseases,” it is then the church that holds its own people accountable to a higher standard of morality and has less toleration for a lack of integrity and morality.

Although we typically find the world celebrating sin and the church confronting it, there is one area where this seems to be reversed: Plagiarism.

When it comes to intellectual property, copying another person’s work, and presenting it as one’s own, the secular world has absolutely no room for toleration. However, the church too often fails to condemn the same behavior, and sometimes even boasts of its use!

Why?

Consider this, can you imagine a member of congress standing up and saying “Last night I was doing some research and 74% of …” when he didn’t, but was reciting another person’s experience? Or what about a CEO standing in front of his board of directors saying “I remember it like it was yesterday,” while every word he speaks is another person’s history? Or what about your child’s 6th grade English teacher grading a book report presentation that was actually memorized from another student’s report?
We all know what happens when people in the secular world behave this way. Last year, an aide to the president resigned. Ironically, a university was recently under fire for copying another school’s policy on, plagiarism. Even Oprah Winfrey has been embarrassed, twice, for endorsing books written by authors who have manufactured history. If this behavior was appropriate, why was Oprah embarrassed by it, and why was it a scandal in the secular press? How can it then be endorsed by those who claim the name of Christ, and be tolerated by churches who practice this deceptive behavior while claiming and even openly bragging about their churches being “authentic” and “genuine?”

So what exactly am I talking about, the reader might ask? Am I talking about a pastor who hears another pastor’s sermon and wants to share it with his congregation, uses the same outline and verse, and disclaims ahead of time what he is doing? While I think doing so should be rare, it isn’t what I am criticizing here. This post is also not concerned specifically with a pastor who reads another’s sermon aloud, and tells his congregation what he is doing. While that should be rare too, it isn’t what I am addressing in this post.

What I am focusing on is the use of the same sermon, the same text, the same examples, and the same experiences, even first person, as if they are one’s own.

Craig Groeschel, who gives his sermons away on the Internet for free says, “It isn’t plagiarizing if you’re given permission,” and also agrees that “just because it isn’t plagiarizing doesn’t always mean you shouldn’t give credit to others.”

While I agree with Pastor Groeschel’s definition, I think it is incomplete, because plagiarism, I believe, also includes the element of deception when a sermon is presented, because the expectation of the congregation, without being notified, is that the material is the speaker’s own work. Especially when examples, experiences, and testimonies are spoken in first person. Just because a pastor has permission to use someone else’s material, this doesn’t mean he is without responsibility to not compromise his integrity to his hearers by presenting the material to them as if it were the work of his own study and preparation.

When it comes to actual practice, Pastor Groeschel seems to agree with my expanded definition of the term, as demonstrated when he uses someone else’s material himself. He not only gets permission, but also is honest with his hearers regarding his usage of another source. Notice also that the consensus in the comments on Pastor Groeschel’s blog is that his doing so “is common courtesy and decency. AS WELL AS INTEGRITY.”

But what happens when a pastor, even with permission to use another’s material, doesn’t tell his congregation, and even claims the personal experiences as his own? Do we consider this to be acceptable in the church, when even the world rejects it?

Words can only explain this so far, consider watching the following examples to understand the full gravity of the question:

In this first example, watch Pastor Craig Groeschel’s introduction as he describes his VBS experience. The speaking starts around time marker 2:30 and his story concludes around the 5:00 mark:

• Example 1: You’re Watching: So You’re Dead… Now What? #2– Craig Groeschel
• Download Craig’s Text

Next, listen to Tadd Grandstaff, of Pine Ridge Church in Graham, NC, as he appears to use Pastor Groeschel’s material, as his own, in first person:

• Example 2: So You’re Dead – Part 3 of 3 – Tadd Grandstaff
• Download Tadd’s Text

So are we to believe that both of these men had the same experience, at the same age, with the same details, exactly as described in first person by both of them?

Both men had a neighborhood vacation bible school, when they were 8 years-old, sat Indian-styled in a circle in the driveway, ate the cookie, drank the Kool-Aid, both were the only one to raise their hand and be taken to the garage to be told the same thing, with the same intonation, both race home and hide in the closet and pray the same prayer, and both fall asleep in terror of the same thing, and praying the same thing? I’m serious! I don’t believe it!

Ok, it may be unpopular to say, but it seems to be that one of these men is lying to his congregation.
I am not certain who wrote or first preached the sermon. I assume Pastor Groeschel’s is the author since he is the one giving his material away for free. Perhaps one of them can share with us those details, and if they approve of the other’s use of their material in this manner?

But to the one who copied the other I ask, why not just show the video of the other guy? Why not tell the congregation he wrote it and tell the story in third person? Do people really believe God is using the copier as an oracle for His message, when he is deceptively claiming he “remembers it as if it was yesterday,” while in reality it never really happened in his own history?

Besides the blatant audacity of copying another person’s sermons and presenting them as your own material, while simultaneously claiming that “God has spoken to me, so plainly,” there is even more shocking aspects to this than first meets the eye.

For starters is the observation that there is no apparent shame in this by its proponents. In responding to similar criticism in the past, this practice is not denied, but bragged about and promoted. Steven Furtick says “if my bullet fits your gun, shoot it” as he boasts that everyone is really doing this, so it therefore must be justified. Gary Lamb, and Tadd Grandstaff of his famous “Stupid People” rant, call it “collaboration.” In the comments on Tadd’s blog, Gary mocks those who would dare question such methods. However, in claiming “collaboration” for the message both Tadd and Gary preached, neither chose to reveal that Perry Noble actually preached a very similar sermon earlier than either one of them! Did they “collaborate” with Noble too? If so, why not mention that at this time?
Furtick is correct to acknowledge that pastors share anecdotes, stories, and illustrations. However, pastors who have integrity quote their sources and give credit, or acknowledge another writer, even if the original writer is anonymous. He is simply wrong that most pastors do what these guys are doing! Most pastors certainly do not recite entire sermons as if they wrote them, nor do they quote specific detailed experiences as first-person testimony when the events really never happened to them. To do either is blatantly dishonest and out of line for a Christian, much less a pastor.

The second thing that deserves pointing out is what this type of “preaching” does to the image of preachers, Christians, and to the church, in the eyes of the unbelieving world. Moreover, when this point is contrasted against their own stated goals, the hypocrisy and inconsistency is glaringly obvious. For example, Tadd Grandstaff in his “I Hate Christians” message (which is eerily similar to chapter one of Craig Groeschel’s book Confessions of a Pastor) rants and rails about how traditional and orthodox churches have disenfranchised a demographic of our culture with their lack of genuine faith practice, lack of authenticity, and abundance of hypocrisy, and how it is the goal of his church to “reach” these people. There certainly is no denying that there are those who have had bad church experiences who need to be reached with the gospel, but is it ethical or even pragmatic to try to reach them with more lack of genuine faith practice, more inauthentic behavior, and more hypocrisy?

Unfortunately this practice is not new as a way to disgrace the pulpit. In this piece by Terry Mattingly, the Rev. Scott Gibson, director of the Center for Preaching at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, recalls an experience A. J. Gordon had in 1876, said,

“”This is not a new problem,” said Gibson. “Some people think the World Wide Web came along and suddenly you had thousands of pastors copying other people’s sermons with a few clicks of a mouse. But there has always been a lot of laziness out there.””

Mattingly continues,

“In his study, Gibson defines “plagiarism” as preaching someone else’s sermon research or content without giving public credit for it.”

The article continues to pontificate on the legitimacy of this practice and the burdens pastors face, but rightly concludes which behaviors should be considered appropriate, and which are over the line,

“But all preachers read and hear stories and insights that they want to share with their flocks. It makes a sermon more colorful to feature a quotation by an author “who simply says something better than you can,” … Attributing direct quotes also adds authority, especially when quoting figures such as Martin Luther, C.S. Lewis or Billy Graham.
This is safe territory. The danger is when pastors appropriate entire outlines or sermon texts and claim them as their own. Perhaps the strongest temptation is to personalize anecdotes that happened to other people.
But it only takes seconds, noted Gibson, for a preacher to cite the source of a story or to say something like, “I heard a great sermon on this biblical text by pastor so and so and I want to share some of his insights with you.”… It’s easy for preachers to play it straight, said Gibson. The question is whether many congregations have become so mesmerized that they will overlook plagiarism.“

Sadly he concludes, that,

“Some churches today just don’t care.”

Fortunately for some this is still considered a matter of integrity and taken seriously by those who esteem the Word of God. Pastor Lenny Stringer speaks of the views of Jim Donahue, president of the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California and a specialist in ethics,

“the use of sermons without attribution is fundamentally a credibility issue of the preacher. “The congregation has an implicit set of expectations about the minister, that there’s going to be trust, authenticity. If a preacher is not attributing his words, then a violation of that credibility occurs,” says Donahue. While Donahue agrees the message is more important than the messenger, he says any lack of credibility on the part of the preacher will “erode the quality of the interaction between the preacher and his congregation.”"

Another point that is commonly missed with this practice, is exactly who is getting robbed! Debates can go on and on about who’s copying whom, whether permission is being obtained or not, and regarding giving credit where it is due, but what about the congregation that is getting cheated? In this article by Doug Smith, Who’s Robbing Whom? Some Thoughts on Pulpit Plagiarism, he writes,

“And the interesting thing is that the people who suffer the most are not the people whose material is being used, but the people who are stealing it and the people who are having it fed to them.“

He goes on to list (and expound upon) five ways in which pulpit plagiarism robs pastors and congregations:

1. Pulpit plagiarism robs pastors and congregations of spiritual nourishment they can get only from someone who lives among them and labors in the text of Scripture.
2. Pulpit plagiarism robs pastors and congregations by discouraging consecutive exposition.
3. Pulpit plagiarism robs pastors and congregations by encouraging laziness.
4. Pulpit plagiarism robs pastors and congregations of a safeguard against false teaching.
5. Pulpit plagiarism robs pastors and congregations by rendering thieving preachers obsolete.

As I read through Mr. Smith’s article I was humored by his quoting Warren Wiersbe’s warning from page 226 of his book, Walking with the Giants,

“One young preacher was so taken with the sermons in a certain book that he decided to preach them as a series. What he did not know was that one of his members owned the same book and had read it. As the member left the service one Sunday, he said to his pastor, “That was a fine sermon this morning!” Then he added with a smile, “Next week’s is good, too!” The problem, of course, lies not with the character of the printed sermon but with the character of the preacher reading it.” (or citing it from memory)

What saddened me about this story was that the church member didn’t seem to mind, what humored me about it was that I’d had a very similar experience while discussing this issue with a member of Tadd Grandstaff’s congregation.

When I explained to the congregant that Tadd’s sermon “All In Life: What Are You Going All In For?,“ appeared to be taken from a study called Chase The Lion by Mark Batterson, which is based on his book, In a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day, he claimed that he not only knew it, but had previously read the book himself, and recognized it when Tadd was preaching it as his own (ironically, this same sermon was preached a week before Tadd by Gary Lamb in “All In Living,”). Maybe I’m old school, but it is sad to me that this lack of integrity doesn’t bother some people any longer.

Fortunately, some churches and people still have enough concern over this issue that they regard it as a reason for a pastor to resign, as Calvary Church’s Glenn Wagnor did, after a congregant accidently stumbled upon his similar behavior.

In conclusion, there is obviously room for disagreement within the church over exactly how a pastor prepares a sermon. I personally believe a pastor should be spending time in God’s Word, praying over the text, and preparing what the Holy Spirit has to say to the church. There are others with whom I would disagree who believe a steady diet of shared, purchased, and downloaded outlines and Scripture texts is sufficient. We can have that disagreement and probably always will. However, the question I ask the reader in this article is: Have we sunk so far that we can no longer spend enough time in God’s Word to prepare original messages of God’s truth, relevant for today, without compromising the integrity of the pulpit? Does the gospel of Jesus Christ need this type of preaching in order to reach lost souls?