LutherQuest Denizen Has a Question about UOJ and Luther

Dave Schumacher has left a new comment on your post "Know Nothings and the Anti-Intellectualism of the ...":

Hello Dr. Jackson,
Although I have not read everything you have written concerning UOJ, I have read enough to understand, I think, your basic premise; please correct me if I am wrong.

You say that Christ has paid the price for all the sins of the entire world, this you call the atonement. You teach that this atonement is not the same as forgiveness, or justification, and that in order to be forgiven a person must have faith. Then, and only then, is a person justified and forgiven. You teach that the faith necessary for forgiveness is a trusting in the promise of God that He will forgive, for the sake of Christ’s atoning work, when we come to faith. You further teach that we may only come by this faith through the means (Word and Sacrament) which God has promised and provided. In short, you teach that God did not pronounce the sins of the entire world forgiven when He promised His Son to Adam and Eve in the Garden.

You teach that the concept of Universal Objective Justification, and it’s  (sic) companion, Subjective Justification, grew out of Pietism and was further developed and promulgated by C.F.W. Walther and the Synodical Conference. I have read many times where you have enlisted the words of Martin Luther in providing support for both your theological premise and your historical premise regarding the origin and development of UOJ.

So that I might have a clearer, more precise, understanding of your teaching, I would be very interested in your explanation of these words of the Reformer.

“….Now the Law comes and says: “I find Him a sinner, who takes upon Himself the sins of all men. I do not see any other sins than those in Him. Therefore let Him die on the cross!” And so it attacks Him and kills Him. By this deed the whole world is purged and expiated from all sins, and thus it is set free from death and from every evil. ………..
…….Therefore the argument that Paul presents here is the most powerful and the highest of all against all the righteousness of the flesh; for it contains this invincible and irrefutable antithesis: If the sins of the entire world are on that one man, Jesus Christ, then they are not on the world. But if they are not on Him, then they are still on the world. Again, if Christ Himself is made guilty of all the sins that we have all committed, then we are absolved from all sins, not through ourselves or through our own works or merits but through Him. But if He is innocent and does not carry our sins, then we carry them and shall die and be damned in them. “But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.” (1 Cor. 15:57.)” – Martin Luther (Lectures on Galatians [1535], Luther’s Works, Vol. 26, pp. 276-77, 279-81)

Please accept my sincere thanks in advance for your reply.

Dave Schumacher

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GJ - The Word of God teaches, the Book of Concord confesses, and I agree with both about justification by faith.

Dave's question, which is really a prelude to his argument, misses most of the basics of the Christian faith. The atonement, expiation, propiation, and redemption (to use various synonyms) all teach that Christ died for the sins of the world. The UOJ Enthusiasts, following the Pietism of Walther and Knapp, bypass the efficacy of the Word in the Means of Grace.

The atonement is not the same as justification. The Calvinists, according to my expert, Dr. Lito Cruz, confuse and merge the two - atonement and justification.

Dave should do some research on his own narrow field of UOJ experts. They have conceded that justification in the New Testament only means justification by faith. Moreover, they have not found UOJ in the Book of Concord. That is why the LQ fanatics quote the St. Louis gang, including the one who left for Rome, because UOJ came in late via Pietism.

The efficacious Word plants faith in a baby's heart through the work of the Spirit in Holy Baptism. Likewise, an adult is converted by the Word of God. In both cases, the faith created by the Word receives the work Christ has accomplished for us. The Book of Concord, following Luther, teaches that believing and forgiveness of sin go together.

Dave has quoted a selection from Luther that he imagines will back up his UOJ Pietism. LQ tried that many times from the Book of Concord. Luther expressed the totality of the atonement in this selection, and I have to emphasize the word selection. LQ would quote a Book of Concord atonement passage and say, "Aha! OJ!" I would look it up and copy the adjacent, yes the adjacent sentences that spoke of justification by faith alone.

I have read thousands of pages of Luther, and nowhere do I find him suddenly abandoning justification by faith in favor of justification without faith.

What Dave does here is really quite evil. He has his UOJ blinders. He and his buddies share their favorite imaginary UOJ quotations. They have a little pile of them, 90% from the golden years of The Kidnapper and his Chosen Disciple (F. Pieper). The other 10% come from a careful excision of material from Luther, Chemnitz, and Aunt Sadie. Dave would like all of us to read the Bible, Luther, and the Book of Concord from the assumption that this quotation is the Pearl of Great Price for Lutheran doctrine.

I could use Luther's Magnificat commentary the same way. Luther prayed to Mary in that little book. Therefore, all passages of the Bible may be read from that viewpoint. There are some Marian passages in the Book of Concord too, such as the Perpetual Virginity of Mary - right out of the Middle Ages, including the claim that Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ. That is the problem when someone creates a sect out of one quotation, and Catholics today use those tidbits to entice Lutherans into "returning to Rome."

However, the Bible is the ruling norm, the judge of all books. The Book of Concord is faithfully witnesses to those truths. No one at LQ wants to deal with the Formula of Concord article on "The Righteousness of Faith." The Enthusiasts love their righteousness without faith.

When Walther kidnapped two minor children from his father's parsonage, was he already forgiven?

Was this LCMS pastor already forgiven, before he was arrested?

Should we sin more, that grace may abound?

I suggest reading the doctrinal graphics I have provided. They completely refute the bogus ideas Dave is trying to promote.


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raklatt (http://raklatt.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "LutherQuest Denizen Has a Question about UOJ and L...":

Let us turn one more page, to page 282:

"To the extent that Christ rules by His grace in the hearts of the faithful, there is no sin or death or curse. But where Christ is not known, there these things remain. And so all who do not believe lack this blessing and this victory. “For this,” as John says, “is our victory, faith” (1 John 5:4).

"This is the chief doctrine of the Christian faith. The sophists have completely obliterated it, and today the fanatics are obscuring it once more."

Luther, M. (1999, c1963). Vol. 26: Luther's works, vol. 26 : Lectures on Galatians, 1535, Chapters 1-4 (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther's Works (26:282). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

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GJ - Thank you, Ray. The trouble is, the LQ denizens will stare at Luther's words and find nothing amiss in their confused and confusing opinions.

Pietism's Saxon Migration Began with Kidnapping Three People, Violating the Confessional, Leading a Riot, And Robbery

In Pursuit of Religious Freedom should be read by all Syn Conference members and pastors. The books well written, balanced, and analytical.

I will write more about their Pietism later, but Stephan was trained at Halle University and closely associated with Zinzendorf and Pietistic groups. So were Walther and the others.

Stephan was obviously engaged in adultery before he left with the Perry County group. The police were investigating him and he was under house arrest. His wife testified that he kept company with another woman, refusing efforts to repair the marriage. Although Stephan's descendants put together this material, they are fair with the facts, no sparing anyone.

Stephan installed a girl in his house and brought her back when his long-suffering wife kicked her out. Other matters were brought up in court. Stephan left for America with his oldest son and left the rest of his family in Dresden. The court released him just before his departure. The whole community knew about the accusations, so the clergy involved were already his enablers.

CFW Walther and his brother kidnapped their niece and nephew from the parsonage of their ailing father. The attorneys Marbach and Vehse helped in hiding the children and delaying justice. Walther left as a wanted criminal.

One Missouri pastor said the kidnapping was passed off as what the children wanted, but that does not give Walther a license for breaking the law, evading the police, and involving others in deceit and deception. The children did not sail with him but on a later ship.

The Perry Count group began with two disgraceful actions against them before they landed in America.

Soon more developed. When two women confessed to adultery with Stephan, after a particular pointed Rogate sermon in St. Louis, the pastor did not keep this confidence. The seal of the confessional should not be violated, because turning it into a channel for gossip destroys the Sacrament of confession and absolution, one of the Means of Grace.

The pastor told CFW Walther, who began plotting against Stephan. The details are in the book. Walther organized a mob to attack Stephan instead the clergy dealing with him directly. The original pastor should have kept his mouth shut and gone to Stephan, but he launched this debacle anyway.

Using all kinds of subterfuge, Walther led the mob of 300 (supporters only) in attacking Stephan's home. Stephan was stripped of his clothing to rob him of all his money, deposed as bishop, threatened with his life, and deprived of the property given him. OJ Simpson is sitting in prison now because he did far less with force in "trying to get his stuff back."

Detaining and robbing a person by force is a major crime. So is kicking him out of his home and forcing him across the river, perhaps at gunpoint. Later, Walther tricked Stephan's son out of the 80 acres of land that the bishop bought with his own money.

Stephan continued to work as a pastor in Illinois. His son and descendants served in the LCMS, one speaking on The Lutheran Hour.

Like all guilty bullies, Walther worked against the victim, portraying himself as a saint when he really belonged in prison ministry, as a jailbird.

There is no question that Stephan deserved to be deposed - before they even left. And Walther should have faced the justice system, instead of escaping to America.

After waiting for a choice moment, Walther and the others should have proceeded fairly and Scripturally. Walther laid the foundation for tyranny based on double-justification from Halle's Georg Knapp.

Buy this book here.

Know Nothings and the Anti-Intellectualism of the Syn Conference

My history teacher thought the Know Nothing Party in America had a lot of influence on politics. Nobody runs for president as a PhD. How many have? I am sure few know that answer. I count three - Woodrow Wilson, Newt Gingrich, and George McGovern.

Lutherans once had a high regard for education. They have replaced that with a high regard for conformity and mediocrity. Chemnitz had to earn a doctorate to be a bishop (DP) even though he was one of the most learned men in Europe. John Moldstad had to finish a college degree after he became professor of New Testament at the Little Schoolhouse on the Prairie. And he wrote a column in their seldom-read magazine. From there he moved to pope, a move carefully arranged by the WELS faction in the ELS. They voted out the First VP so John could be elevated and serve their interests.

The Lutheran MDiv opinionators remind me of Luther's description of Enthusiasts - They do not trust God's Word, but they fill the world with their own words.

And what brilliance! I enjoy seeing the LutherQueasy bottom-feeders returning to their main argument, a logical fallacy, the ad hominem. Naturally they use the straw man fallacy and guilt by association. Someone who asks McCain about his obnoxious, puerile behavior on LQ is somehow working with me, has "jumped into bed"... with me.

They are so anxious to promote forgiveness without faith, but they never defend it. Their readers must be eager to hear some defense for separating grace from the Means of Grace, the Holy Spirit from the Word. Instead, the LutherQueasies engage in dancing around the issues and changing the subject. Do they do any research past their little circle of experts (all disciples of CFW Walther)? No.

The LutherQueasies cannot even face Robert Preus' defense of justification by faith, except to deny his clear statements and orthodox citations.

My theory is this - the doctrinal graphics have had a lot of impact already, showing how their position, their only doctrine, UOJ, is little more than cotton candy for future atheists.

Do Not Question an Ankle-Biter

Clyde Nehrenz:

"Mr. McCain, what is the purpose of your posting this rant on Luther Quest? Do your superiors at the Concordia Publishing House approve of one of their top executives, one who holds probably the most prestigious of all position with the firm, attacking the character of a person so viscously on the internet where it can be accessed potentially by millions of people?

Tell us, Mr. McCain, what did you hope to accomplish by launching this viscous attack?"

McCain: "Nope...still not interesting, Clyde. Still waiting."

Nehrenz:  "Answer the question...if you dare."

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GJ - I imagine Clyde meant "vicious attack" instead of "viscous attack," but McCain is rather thick. Clyde is a layman who does not play LQ games.

McCain has posted the same thing on his own blog and even on a discussion thread for WELS members.

I ran into a long LCMS thread on Facebook about how many people McCain has blocked. Unfriending can mean very little, especially since many people leave their pages and photos open to everyone. However, when someone is blocked, the blocked person cannot see any posts or data from the person blocking. The blocking person no longer shows up as a participant on FB, even with a FB search.

The LCMS participants were baffled and deeply hurt about being blocked by McCain, since they were completely cut off from contact with no reason given. I guess he blocked Todd Wilken, of religious radio fame, too. I have no way of checking this, since McCain friended me, unfriended me, and blocked me.

The thread on McCain's ex-friends made me feel sorry for him. The ALPB group tried to reason with McCain. They gave him a time out and kidded him about it. He came back but not for long. Although McCain is an extreme example, he is typical of Syn Conference politics: Dr. Jekyll with supporters, Mr. Hyde with the opposition. His supporters are dwindling in number. He does have Jack Kilcrease, the WELS pastor's son who graduated from an ELCA seminary and teaches at a Roman Catholic school.

Clergy and laity have learned not to question the synodical leaders, who engage in the same behavior, employing maximum deniability. When The ALC pastor of St. Paul, (Lange) German Village, Ohio, was taking the congregation out of the synod, the ALC leaders asked in letters about the pastor's health. Clearly, anyone wanting to leave The ALC for doctrinal reasons was unstable.

WELS people loved to cite the example of Lange, but they are 100 times worse, especially those who pretend not to know it is going on, condoning and approving it nevertheless.

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Clyde Nehrenz (Cnehrenz) Advanced Member Username: Cnehrenz Post Number: 817 Registered: 12-2004

Posted on Monday, June 27, 2011 - 2:28 pm:    Within the hour I have emailed the following message: Dr. Bruce C. Kintz President and CEO Concordia Publishing House Dear Dr. Kintz: . At your convenience you might want to look in on the discussion “Ickybog Adventures” at http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/discus .cgi. Do you approve of employees of Concordia Publishing House using the disreputable tactic of character assassination in publicly assailing those whose theology they disagree with? Since this has been made a public issue by the employee I’m referring to, it would be remiss of me not to share this message with those who are following the discussion. Perhaps you will want to join the discussion yourself. Sincerely yours, Clyde Nehrenz

Paul T. McCain (Ptmccain) Member Username: Ptmccain Post Number: 126 Registered: 4-2009

Posted on Monday, June 27, 2011 - 2:47 pm:    By the way, Clyde, it strikes me as entirely appropriate that you have now jumped into bed with the purveyor of Ickybog: The Sanity Has Departed. I think you two so richly deserve one another and I wish you all the best in your new found relationship.