Thursday, December 6, 2012

The Keys Quotation Again


Simpleman Jones has left a new comment on your post "Left Behind - UOJ from Knapp Turned into Open Univ...":

Went to Lutherquest to check out any debates on UOJ, but only saw one that ended in April (I think). But I saw this quote from Luther (volume 40):

"Even he who does not believe that he is free and his sins forgiven shall also learn, in due time, how assuredly his sins were forgiven, even though he did not believe it."

This quote was not picked up on in the discussion, I don't think, but this surely sounds like Martin Luther taught an objective justification. Am I missing something here? I haven't seen any OJ spoken of in the Lutheran Confessions, so I was wondering about this quote.

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Left Behind - UOJ from Knapp Turned into Open Univ...":

Good question. I believe this quote from Martin Luther can be found in Luther's Works vol. 40, 363-369 Treatise Concerning the Keys

Most UOJists will turn to this quote to prove that Luther taught that the whole unbelieving world was declared forgiven by God before and without faith in Christ.

This quote is taken completely out of context and contradicts the Lutheran Confessions and Scripture.

Luther was speaking about the Office of the Keys in this quote. It doesn't support UOJ at all. This is a discussion about the application of the keys in regard to a person who is distraught over their sins and turning to Christ for forgiveness. From the Small Catechism, What is Confession? "Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven." And, "Furthermore: Dost thou believe that my forgiveness is God's forgiveness? Answer. Yes, dear sir. Then let him say: As thou believest, so be it done unto thee. And by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ I forgive thee thy sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Depart in peace."
http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#confession

The office of the Keys in regard to loosing sin is not to be used for unrepentant sinners as the UOJ promoters would have us believe by their false use of Luther's quote. It is reserved for those who in true repentance are contrite over their sin and turn to Christ for forgiveness. The UOJ promoters are will stop at nothing to pervert Christ's true doctrine to achieve their justification and righteousness before God and men outside of and without faith in Christ.

The Lutheran Confessions teach the following:
"6] Let any one of the adversaries come forth and tell us when remission of sins takes place. O good God, what darkness there is! They doubt whether it is in attrition or in contrition that remission of sins occurs. And if it occurs on account of contrition, what need is there of absolution, what does the power of the keys effect, if sins have been already remitted?…"
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_10_repentance.php

Both faithful quotes from the Confessions reject the UOJists blatant lies concerning what Luther taught. Note the fact that by teaching Luther’s statements concerning the Office of the Keys was a declaration that the whole unbelieving world was forgiven by God when Christ paid for the world’s sins – then the Key to Retain sin becomes obsolete. Who then could retain a sin that was already forgiven and absolved by Christ before the person ever believed. In fact, sins that were forgiven even if the person never believes. UOJ contradicts Scripture and the faithful Confessions 100%.

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Left Behind - UOJ from Knapp Turned into Open Univ...":

Simpleman, here are a few links to extensive UOJ discussions including one from Lutherquest in 2008.

Correction: 2008 Lutherquest UOJ discussion link is
http://www.lutherquest.org/discus40/messages/69842/68185.html


http://bailingwater.blogspot.com/2009/05/synod-convention.html?showComment=1244325308153#c2385621664358128548

http://extranos.blogspot.com/2010/03/grinding-my-ax.html


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Simpleman Jones has left a new comment on your post "The Keys Quotation Again":

So when Luther said that "his sins were forgiven even though he did not believe it," he was talking about a man who was a believer, and who was given absolution, but was doubting his forgiveness because of guilt??

So actually, the man had faith, but was dealing with unbelief, and was therefore, through that weak faith, forgiven??
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GJ - That is a good summary, Simpleman. Luther's grasp of justification was profound, as shown in his Galatians Commentary. The foundational sin is unbelief. See the graphic below. The UOJ Enthusiasts would have everyone declare a universal absolution without the Gospel or faith, yet insist that the first justification was not effective without the second. That bizarre explanation reminds me of Roman Catholics saying sin are forgiven (through Christ) but not paid for (by man). Enthusiasm always finds a new or old stupidity to grasp and defend, because they divorce the Holy Spirit from the Word.



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Simpleman Jones has left a new comment on your post "The Keys Quotation Again":

Just to be sure I've got this debate down, I need to put it in my own words:

OJ-SJ'ers say: When Christ died/rose, God declared all people forgiven and righteous. Because God is timeless, this applied to Adam as well as to all people today. We could never tell people that they are forgiven if God had not declared all people forgiven and righteous, and therefore the Holy Spirit would never be able to bring a person to faith without us being able to tell the person they are forgiven. For He only works through the gospel message.

J'ers say: When Christ died/rose, He did this for all people so that all people's sins from Adam to people today have been atoned for. We say that Jesus' atonement has done this for all people, but we do not tell an unbeliever that he is personally forgiven until the Holy Spirit has brought him to faith through the teaching of Jesus' atonement for all people.

If I am correct on this, then the practical difference I see in this is that the OJ-SJ'ers tell an unbeliever who has been made to feel guilt over his sin: "You are forgiven of all your sins because of what Christ has done for you. Believe!" 
 
While J'ers would tell that same unbeliever: "Jesus died for the sins of the whole world to reconcile us to God. Believe and you, too, will be forgiven!"

I would like to hear from both sides if I've got this correct. Thanks.
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GJ - UOJ Enthusiasts are on a constant rampage against faith, and they cannot tolerate justification by faith alone. I have preserved many of their most foolish statements. One is posted below as a graphic. It is normal for UOJ and not extreme - for them.

The "comfort" of UOJ.
No wonder WELS and Missouri love working with ELCA.


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