Doctrinal Roadblocks to UOJ from the Formula of Concord

So how can anyone say the whole world is declared righteous? (UOJ dogma)
3] 2. Likewise we believe, teach, and confess that the unregenerate will of man is not only turned away from God, but also has become an enemy of God, so that it only has an inclination and desire for that which is evil and contrary to God, as it is written Gen. 8:21: The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Also Rom. 8:7: The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither, indeed, can be. Yea, as little as a dead body can quicken itself to bodily, earthly life, so little can man, who by sin is spiritually dead, raise himself to spiritual life, as it is written Eph. 2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, He hath quickened us together with Christ; 2 Cor. 3:5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything good as of ourselves, but that we are sufficient is of God.

How does one become righteous?
4] 3. God the Holy Ghost, however, does not effect conversion without means, but uses for this purpose the preaching and hearing of God's Word, as it is written Rom. 1:16: The Gospel is the power of God 5] unto salvation to every one that believeth. Also Rom. 10:17: Faith cometh by hearing of the Word of God. And it is God's will that His Word should be heard, and that man's ears should not be closed. Ps. 95:8. With this Word the Holy Ghost is present, and opens hearts, so that they, as Lydia in Acts 16:14, are attentive to it, and are thus converted alone through the grace and power of the Holy Ghost, whose 6] work alone the conversion of man is. For without His grace, and if He do not grant the increase, our willing and running, our planting, sowing, and watering, all are nothing, as Christ says John 15:5: Without Me ye can do nothing. With these brief words He denies to the free will its powers, and ascribes everything to God's grace, in order that no one may boast before God. 1 Cor. 1:29; 2 Cor. 12:5; Jer. 9:23.

UOJ is pure Enthusiasm
13] 6. Also, we reject and condemn the error of the Enthusiasts, who imagine that God without means, without the hearing of God's Word, also without the use of the holy Sacraments, draws men to Himself, and enlightens, justifies, and saves them. (Enthusiasts we call those who expect the heavenly illumination of the Spirit [celestial revelations] without the preaching of God's Word.)

Does this sound like UOJ? Few pastors read or study this, so how can they confess it?
18] 9. Also what Dr. Luther has written, namely, that man's will in his conversion is pure passive, that is, that it does nothing whatever, is to be understood respectu divinae gratiae in accendendis novis motibus, that is, when God's Spirit, through the Word heard or the use of the holy Sacraments, lays hold upon man's will, and works [in man] the new birth and conversion. For when [after] the Holy Ghost has wrought and accomplished this, and man's will has been changed and renewed by His divine power and working alone, then the new will of man is an instrument and organ of God the Holy Ghost, so that he not only accepts grace, but also cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the works which follow.

19] Therefore, before the conversion of man there are only two efficient causes, namely, the Holy Ghost and the Word of God, as the instrument of the Holy Ghost, by which He works conversion. This Word man is [indeed] to hear; however, it is not by his own powers, but only through the grace and working of the Holy Ghost that he can yield faith to it and accept it.

The Word of God is the instrument of conversion.
6] 5. This [predestination of God] is not to be investigated in the secret counsel of God, but to be sought in the Word of God, where it is also revealed.

7] 6. But the Word of God leads us to Christ, who is the Book of Life, in whom all are written and elected that are to be saved in eternity, as it is written Eph. 1:4: He hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world.

8] 7. This Christ calls to Himself all sinners and promises them rest, and He is in earnest [seriously wills] that all men should come to Him and suffer themselves to be helped, to whom He offers Himself in His Word, and wishes them to hear it and not to stop their ears or [neglect and] despise the Word. Moreover, He promises the power and working of the Holy Ghost, and divine assistance for perseverance and eternal salvation [that we may remain steadfast in the faith and attain eternal salvation].

The Laity and Universal Objective Justification

This photo has no connection to the post, but it is funny.

I had a long, enjoyable talk with a layman tonight. He phoned and asked about getting copies of Thy Strong Word. He confirmed what I thought - the pastors are not going to get rid of this false doctrine. He has made many attempts to discuss the topic with Lutheran ministers.

I am hopeful because I see pockets of laity here and there, eager to know the Lutheran Confessions and the Scriptures. They are addressing the cancer of UOJ. The clergy duck and run. The Word will defeat this if the Word is studied and applied.

I stunned him by reading verbatim a statement supporting the Two Jays - objective justification and subjective justification - from a non-Lutheran, Pietistic dogma book. Date: 1866.

Has anyone noticed that all the UOJ catechisms stop at Walther? They may claim others (Lutherans like Calov and Gerhard) taught it before, but they have no sources. The real sources are non-Lutheran, from the 19th century Pietists.

As I mentioned on the phone, the non-Lutheran Protestants of today left this nonsense behind them. The Pietistic Lutherans absorbed it and made it their own, in the name of the Chief Article of the Christian Faith. Apart from the Synodical Conference clergy, few in Christendom believe or teach UOJ today. That by itself is not an argument, but it should make people wonder how a few Midwestern hicks discovered something no one else had ever taught before.

To summarize the Bible, Luther, the Book of Concord, Chemnitz, and others:

1. Christ died for the sins of the world. That is the treasure of the Gospel.
2. The Holy Spirit distributes this treasure through the Word and Sacraments. Otherwise it lies in one heap and is useless, as Luther said.
3. Justification means justification by faith. When people hear the Gospel, they trust the Word and receive this treasure.
4. No one taught otherwise in the Lutheran Church. Walther and the other Pietists adopted UOJ from the Pietists and made it their own distinctive false doctrine. The Wisconsin Synod, ELS, CLCs, and LCR aped Walther. ELDONA is awaiting word from the Archbishop of Constantinople.
5. The Muhlenberg tradition and the Augustana Synod did not teach UOJ. Augustana was Pietistic but rejected the extreme Norwegian views on justification. One Norwegian statement became part of the WELSian Kokomo Statements (if memory serves).
6. All the Lutheran groups have to be seen through the filter of Pietism, because that was the dominating theme of the era they were in, whether it was Muhlenberg's or Walther's or Hoenecke from Halle U.

Finklestein on WELS Church and Change

No joke. The Church and Changers always get even, and then some. One little Word shall fell them.

From Bailing Water:

Freddy said...
Mr. “Seeking Truth, not Hysteria”

Perhaps I am being naive, but I will assume that your post is genuine, and try to honestly answer some of your questions from my perspective.

First, understand that C&C is only the latest version of nearly two decades of Church Growth innovation, that has, over the years, been cynically foisted on WELS Lutherans as the only right way, because it is somehow the only relevant way. Yes, the only relevant way, in spite of the condescending nods they seem to offer in the direction “dying traditionalists” who “irrationally cling” to Confessional and catholic (that's small “c” catholic) practices. As CG methods are overtly non-Lutheran, making a joke out of our claim of catholicity, C&C church growth zealots unapologetically express their intent to carry our church practice away from anything (a) recognizably Lutheran, that (b), being recognizably Lutheran, also functions in a way that uniquely supports our doctrine.

Although the names involved seem to be the same, they are almost irrelevant at this point (apart from their continued appointment to positions of centralized leadership). What many of us have observed, especially those of us in a position to observe trends as we travel across the U.S. for business purposes, is the broad impact of CG on Lutheran Practice today, after decades of toleration. Such impact includes crass rejection of the Western Rite (the “Mass” which the Confessions tell us is not to be abolished), the adoption of openly and unavoidably anthropocentric “contemporary” forms in the Divine Service (in an effort to titillate the weak and the unregenerate, over against “traditional” Lutheran and Christocentric practices that may “bore” them), and practices which overtly despise the Sacraments, hiding the Marks of the Church rather than heralding them, for fear that the unregenerate may take offense! Yes, for fear that they may stumble at the Stumbling Stone! CG ideas have been propagated and absorbed by the weak among us, as they jealously look toward pop-church Evangelicals with a longing for their “relevant” "contemporary" practice. Never mind that today, Evangelicalism is virtually in a state of collapse, and that former standard bearers of CG, like Barna Research, are largely pointing at CG as the cause.

Second, understand that if C&C posted anything provocative or directly suggestive of a challenge to Confessional Lutheranism, the principals of this organization would be officially chastised and/or drummed out of the Synod with little ceremony. They know this. Further, the principals of this organization are not young ideologues. They are well-healed and mostly aged CG advocates who have managed to survive decades of fierce polemic from the likes of Dr. Greg Jackson. They are calloused from experience, and have learned from their mistakes -- they know the magic phrases, and can easily thread the needle of doctrinal rhetoric to avoid direct criticism. Looking to the material they post for evidence of manifest unorthodoxy is a waste of time. The proof in is the field, not so much in the naked words themselves; it is in the manifest and growing results of their influence.

To insist that C&C church-growthers mean well and ought to be interminably tolerated is like saying Phillip Jakob Spener meant well (which he did), and ought to have been tolerated (which he was for awhile, at first). Granting that he insisted he wanted to be orthodox, even granting that he tried to remain so, the impact of his teaching grew far beyond his ability to effectively influence it, and even though his ideas were eventually rejected, and he was separated from the Orthodox Lutherans, he had been tolerated by them for too long. The innovations of practice introduced by Spener, in the end, eviscerated orthodox Confessional Lutheranism and left the world and the Church vulnerable to the attacks of the Enlightenment.

WELS has long been infected with CG. This is acknowledged practically everywhere. But it is not just the small list of congregations which have been completely given-over to the methods of failing Evangelicalism, rather, it's a little here and a little there, practically everywhere. Those of us who travel, see it – it sticks out like a sore thumb. To the extent that these unnecessary and unhealthy CG innovations leach into our practice, these non-Lutheran practices are given unfettered access to preach the non-Lutheran doctrines from which they spring. Yes, that's lex orandi, lex credendi, and yes, these uninformed and ill-advised practices are active spreading false doctrine among us, especially regarding Church and Ministry and the Means of Grace, and are obliterating our Confessionalism, particularly among the laity.

Much has been written on this blog, especially in recent months, on these specific topics. Some of it is good, some, perhaps, not so good. Rather than repeat it all in one place, take a read for yourself, if you haven't already.

Freddy Finkelstein

October 29, 2008 12:14 PM

***

GJ - I do not know who Freddy is. He is right about how calloused these Church and Changers are. They got one of their own (Valleskey)into the Sausage Factory, and promoted him up to president of the school. Wayne Mueller was exposed and eased out off the seminary faculty, but his next stop was the newly-invented head of Perish Services (a big, fat raise after leaving the Factory). Mueller became First VP, got voted out of office, and came back as First VP during the next set of ballots.

Now they have the seminary president Wendland, Frosty Bivens, and Al Sorum as moles. In fact, now it is so bad that a Lutheran would be a mole on that faculty.

Richard Krause was the pastor in Marietta, Ohio when I was in Columbus. He was the conference chairman and the circuit pastor. He was getting his DMin from a union seminary with Larry Olson (DMin, Fuller) as his supervisor. He never mentioned that when we discussed the false doctrine of CG. Krause's defense of Olson's false doctrine was, "He's no false teacher. I drank a lot of beer with him when we were in school." The beer defense in WELS is tough to refute.

Pietism War on LutherQuest (sic)

Find the Gospel on LQ (sic)

The UOJ Stormtroopers having formed a circle and opened fire.

As Luther said, when the Means of Grace are abandoned, all kinds of foul errors rush in to take their place.

Church and Change - Fess Up about Stetzer - And Dicipleship

Church and Change leaders never noticed the spelling error! They are funetic spellers.

We know that Stetzer sealed his contract with Church and Change in late July this year, to be the keynote speaker in November of 2009. See the posted information below.

Church and Change has not told the truth about this. Nothing is posted at this moment.

Bruce Becker, Church and Change board member, has not told the truth about the Kelm call. He kept that a secret from his own synodical leader. In fact, he pointedly disobeyed the advice given by the Synodical President. Now his Church Shrinkage unit (called Perish Services) will load up on costs as the country enters a major recession.

Not all is lost. St Mark's was running in the red. The move will help them a lot.

Parlow, a Church and Change Obi-Wan, says, "Thanks, Bruce, for taking Kelm off my hands."

Halloween - When Babtists Put On Masks And Pretend They Are Lutherans

Daniel Fuller studied in Europe and came back a liberal. Lindsell published this fact 30 years ago.

Daniel Fuller, a key figure in turning Fuller Seminary into a marketing machine, published an essay about how wrong Luther was. His insights are based on wisdom from a professor at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana. I never heard of Taylor either.

Here is the link:

Luther wuz wrong.

That is why the WELS, LCMS, and ELCA leaders love Fuller Seminary. They also imagine they know more than Luther about theology.

Here Is a Good Statement That Applies to the Church Growth, Church and Change Crowd - WELS, LCMS, ELS

Todd Bentley and his estranged wife, their daughter in the background. Perhaps he could become a WELS nursing home administrator. Or mission consultant.

In a statement about Lakeland, these thoughts from a charistmatic/Pentecostal:

1) We, the leaders of the charismatic community, have operated in an extremely low level of discernment. Frankly, we often don’t even try to discern. We assume a person’s credibility based on gifts, charisma,the size of their ministry or church, whether they can prophesy orwork a miracle, etc. (Miracles and signs are intended to validate Godand His message, not the messenger; sometimes they validate the assignment of an individual, but never the person’s character, lifestyle or spiritual maturity.) We leaders in the Church have become no different than the world around us in our standards for measuring success and greatness. This has contributed to the body of Christ giving millions of dollars to undeserving individuals; it has allowed people living in sin to become influential leaders—even to lead movement, allowing them influence all the way to the White House. Through our lack of discernment we built their stages and gave them their platforms. We have been gullible beyond words—gullible leaders producing gullible sheep.

The latest scandal (above), concerning Todd Bently, is described here, at Fresh Fire:

We wish to acknowledge, however, that since our last statement from the Fresh Fire Board of Directors, we have discovered new information revealing that Todd Bentley has entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff. In light of this new information and in consultation with his leaders and advisors, Todd Bentley has agreed to step down from his position on the Board of Directors and to refrain from all public ministry for a season to receive counsel in his personal life.

On behalf of the Fresh Fire leadership and the Board of Directors we wish to apologize to our friends and partners and to the larger body of Christ and to ask for your forgiveness. We are truly sorry for the pain many of you must feel and so regret that in the midst of great revival, the enemy has found a way into our camp. To those who have stood by us, we wish to thank you for what in many cases has been years of support. Thank you for your financial giving towards the vision of this ministry, and thank you especially for your prayers. For those of our partners, friends and supporters who may be struggling with the recent disclosures and finding continued support of this ministry in conflict with either conscience or conviction, we release and bless you with all our hearts and trust that God will redeem in your hearts the good that He has accomplished in your lives through this ministry. It is our sincerest hope and prayer that the Lord bless you and bring you into your fullest destiny in Him.

When this ministry was initially birthed in May of 1998, Todd had but one simple desire in his heart – to see the world come to know Jesus. Now, only 10 years later, Fresh Fire Ministries has grown to become a Resource Center that is literally reaching out to all the corners of the Earth. There have been dozens of associate ministries, scores of interns and hundreds of graduates from the Supernatural Training Center. Over 60 nations have received a combined total of more than five million dollars in humanitarian aid and we have seen well over one million conversions for Jesus Christ.

And so, the question can well be asked... where do we go from here? It is true that we are deeply saddened by these recent events, but it hasn’t shaken our faith in either God or His goodness towards us and with the help of wise and compassionate leaders within the body, we will do everything within our power to see our brother and sister healed and restored.

As a ministry, we can not forsake the vision and heartbeat upon which Todd Bentley founded Fresh Fire Ministries which is simply this:

Matthew 10:7-8
And as you go, Preach, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand” Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. While Todd and Shonnah each go through the necessary steps towards restoration and wholeness, we are compelled, with the resources with which God has entrusted us, to continue to spread God’s love and power all over the world.

There are many noble activities and endeavors in which Fresh Fire Ministries is involved, initiated by Todd, and to which we are still committed. We have the Supernatural Training Centre, our school of ministry, already in it’s fourth full year and with more than 50 students already enrolled we’re believing for an amazing year of biblical instruction, practical application and encounters with the presence of God. Many mature and gifted speakers and associates, graduated interns and teachers filled brim-full with the DNA and fire of this ministry are ready to pour revelation and passion into the hungry hearts of this coming year’s student body.



Bentley could start a Church Growth agency, with his sordid past.

Bentley's board of directors lied about his adultery for him, and he isn't even from the Michigan District of WELS. "The statement released by Fresh Fire Ministries on Tuesday emphasized the separation was not due to infidelity by either spouse."

One man sat up in his coffin and began praising the Bentley ministry. It's true, because I saw it on YouTube. Well, OK, I saw Bently screaming out the story. Ri-cheer, you skeptics:



A little self-promotion from a lady Pentecostal minister is posted here.

This is about Bentley's Emma the Angel. Seriously.

Is Ed Stetzer Lying About the Church and Change Conference?

Stetzer used this painting of Luther on his blog.

A Little Love for the Lutherans?
Monday August 4, 2008 ~ 8 Comments
I like Lutherans.

In one of my first blog posts (about one year ago now), I wrote about my time speaking with their leadership at Concordia University. I talked about what I learned from one of their bishops and how they rebuked me.

I am excited about speaking to the Missouri Synod Lutherans North American Mission Executives in St. Louis in April 2009.

Also, I will be with another tribe of Lutherans in 2009. In this case, I will be with some Wisconsin Synod leaders at a meeting hosted in Milwaukee by a group called WELS Church and Change in November 2009.

(I am sure that someone will tell me the differences along the way, and it may include a famous episode of the T.V. show Cheers, where Woody and his fiancé discover they are from different Lutheran denomination.)

My favorite Cheers / Lutheran exchange:

Woody - "Ask her why she thinks the Book of Concord is not in line with the Scriptures!"
Kelly - "Because it's not."

Woody - "HERETIC !!!"


Good people, those Lutherans.

And, they (the Missouri Synod) have a plan for planting 2000 churches by 2017, the anniversary of something in Europe.

So, I received the email below and answered with some ideas from Planting Missional Churches. However, I think it would be helpful to hear from you on some of the job descriptions you would want for a core team. I will probably use them for an article as well, so be sure to put your name a church if you have any insights.

Here is the email. Please take a look and let's give a little blog help to some Lutherans who love Jesus and want to plant churches.



My name is Dick Evers, and I am part of The 72-Partners on the Road (formerly Harvesters for Christ) a ministry of LCMS World Mission.

It is our understanding that you have considerable expertise in church planting.
The 72 teams provide training to existing congregations to begin, enhance or revitalize their outreach activities. You can check out our website: www.lcms.org/The72. There are about 70 of us, located in various areas of the country.

Our ministry was recently asked by the LCMS to get involved with our congregations who want to sponsor a church plant. We are trying to establish a training program for The 72 teams who will work with the congregation and the church planters. As you will note from the attached "Areas of Training" information which discusses what we do, we believe we can be of real help to the church planting teams and the church planter.

We understand that the congregation is to provide a "core" group (40 members or more) and a launch team to work with the church planter. However, we are not exactly sure of the responsibilities of the core group and the launch team. We want to gear our training to help both groups be better prepared, as well as the church planter. We will be only acting in a "helping equip" role, not doing any supervising.

Can you give me any direction as to how we might find the basic "job descriptions" of the "core" group and the launch team? By knowing more about what the core group and launch team are supposed to do (or what additional help they could be to the church plant with more training), we can modify our existing modules, or create new ones, to help equip them.

Any information or direction you can provide us on how to find the "job descriptions" or any other comments you have that might be helpful to us would be greatly appreciated.

May God continue to bless your ministry,

Dick Evers
The 72-Partners on the Road

***

GJ - Church and Change fans have been trying to deny their 2009 conference is planned, even though it was discussed by the WELS COP and posted as a date on Stetzer's calendar. Thanks to my extensive research, we now have a date when the conference invite was firmed up - August 4, 2008.

Remember that when Church and Change denies the obvious again.

Of course, Missouri is lapping this up, too. As Luther said, when the Means of Grace are ignored, all kinds of foul errors rush in to take their place.

But Wait! There's More!

Board Reader

Thread profile page for " Just committed to speak for the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod in Fall of 2009. 08:02 PM July 26, 2008 from web " on http://twitter.com/edstetzer. This report page is a snippet summary view from a single thread " Just committed to speak for the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod in Fall of 2009. 08:02 PM July 26, 2008 from web ", located on the Message Board at http://twitter.com/edstetzer. This thread profile page shows the thread statistics for: Total Authors, Total Thread Posts, and Thread Activity, which are reported in a table below.

Ed Stetzer May Not Be The Man

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Joe Krohn--Laveen Veteran, Rock and Roll Church Me...":

I vehemently disagree with you, Joe.

Pastor Jackson has the courage to speak for many in WELS. He is merely exposing error - which we are commanded to do in Scripture.
Many of us have pastors that, unfortunately, for whatever reason, are afraid to speak out.

What, exactly, is it that makes your pastor and congregation WANT to be a member of WELS? Normally when people want to be a part of something they do not hide it but happily proclaim it.

I became WELS as an adult. I would have felt deceived if I first learned I was really Lutheran after being a part of a church. That happened to me when I was checking out a "community church" and eventually learned it was really Baptist.

Do you show prospective members your constitution? It surely says you a member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, right? With your adult confirmations do they not take a vow that they accept the LUTHERAN confessions?

When I did not have a church I would have been very hurt if I was lured to a fellowship or ministry or whatever you want to call it under the pretense of caring for my "perceived felt needs" and then had the gospel sprung on me once you felt I was comfortable. I would have fled as far and as fast as I could. I would never do that to a stranger of even someone I loved.

Your congragation and others are driving away the very people you once evangelized.
WELS is sick and has a cancer that is metasticizing and spreading like the tributaries of a river. WELS is a manmade institution. What a blessing that the Word of the Lord stands forever.

Obama To Start Internship - Satire from The Onion - Mentions UOP Online

Joe Krohn--Laveen Veteran, Rock and Roll Church Member--Converts with His Love

Weaned on a lemon, Joe's teeth are on edge.

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Beyond Belief - Is Anyone Literate at Church and C...":

Greg,

I finally got to read your ‘brief’ bio. I should have read it before ever posting. It was a revelation.

I was correct in assuming that you harbor ill feelings toward WELS. I can’t say I blame you. Everyone who has ever been a serious worker in the church has their ‘war stories’. There was a good one in the Bible between Peter and Paul. The difference between them and you however is striking. How we deal with things in life is 1 percent what happens to us and 99 percent how we deal with it. That translates to ATTITUDE.

[GJ - Membership at Rock and Roll has endowed Joe Krohn with mystical, mind-reading powers. He even can discern motivation.]

This blog shows that you have a bad attitude about WELS. It shows that whatever happened, you have not moved on and shown forgiveness. You continue to spew hatred, slander, half truths and a toxicity that is un-Lutheran and un-Christian.

[GJ - Show us the way to a higher truth, a greater love, Joe.]

Whether you want to admit it or not, CTR and CrossWalk are Confessional Lutheran Churches. No where (sic) in the Bible does it say we have to have “Lutheran” in our name. We Baptize and we partake of Lord’s Supper the same way WELS always has and they are NOT ordinances like you are inferring about us. Our style of worship is a little different. There is no prescription in the Bible about style of worship. We still offer the forgiveness of sins; absolution; say the creeds and Lord’s Prayer every Sunday. How we choose to promote it is none of your business. You relinquished your right to complain about us when you quit WELS. (This is like not voting in an election and then complaining who got in to office.)

[GJ - This Fuddle-mentalist argument is not surprising from the Southern Babtist Central District of WELS. Published false doctrine can be publicly reproved and should be publicly admonished. Check the Large Catechism, 8th Commandment. WELS cannot claim to be Lutheran while promoting Church and Change Babtist conferences.]

How is it that you apply your dose of judgment on us because a few people attended a conference (for educational purposes) where there were speakers who were not of our faith and yet it was OK for you to attend and support (direct or indirect tuitions) a liberal ‘Lutheran’ college (for educational purposes); attend and support (direct or indirect tuitions) a divinity school that is part of a bigger school that is supported by global elitists and an agenda that answers to Rome (for educational purposes); attend and support (direct or indirect tuitions) Notre Dame; a Roman Catholic institution (for educational purposes); and now works for a non-denominational Christian institution that promotes the very doctrine that you accuse us of following. You say you are conservative, but somewhere along the line (maybe all the RC indoctrination) I think you got it mixed up with legalism. I would like to know how you ever got into a Lutheran parish in the first place with that kind of education.

[GJ - I would like to see the conferences and associations of Pastor Matt posted on his website. They used to be on his Church From Scratch website. And why does he hide his WELS education and ordination? Ashamed of the Sausage Factory?]

It is extreme attitudes such as yours that have stunted the growth of true Lutheranism.

[GJ - The Church Shrinkage Movement has had a negative effect on its own numbers, which are supposedly the measure of its worth. Spare us, Joe, from your true Lutheranism. As Schmauck said, the farther people get away from the Confessions, the more they claim they are the true Lutherans, as you just did.]

You sir, need to come down from your ivory tower and remove that Ponderosa Pine that grows up along The Rim that is stuck in your eye.

[GJ - I feel the warm glow of love from Rock and Roll Church, Joe. I only hope you are an usher, so your friendliness, wit, and compassion can make the Word effective. That is what your gurus in the Babtist church claim.]

Sincerely Yours,
Joe [Krohn, former CrossWalk Laveen member, current Rock and Roll Church member]

Hate going to church? Rock and Roll understands.

***

Anonymous Supports Joe the Rocker
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Joe Krohn--Laveen Veteran, Rock and Roll Church Me...":

How telling that the Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) failed to even come close to answering Joe's question about his affiliations. The Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) refused to deny those affiliations because then he would be proven a hypocrite, as he himself says that an official denial proves that whatever is being denied is true. So the Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) decided it best to gloss over the issue. And you say the WELS/LCMS/ELCA/ELS cover things up?

[GJ - It's all there in the bio, which is frequently read. For some reason, people who cannot spell or use good English are deeply offended by degrees from accredited schools.]

How telling that the Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) failed to directly respond to the points Joe made. Instead, the Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) continued his baseless bashing of Joe, Christ the Rock, Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, and WELS. The Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) is no different than a politician who evades a question or point of debate because he knows he's wrong, but is too proud to admit it.

I nominate Joe to be considered the "Joe 'the' Plumber" of this putrid blog.

***

GJ - I wonder if Joe is seconding Joe. It's hard to tell without a name. Lutherans without a confession often post without a name. I found out Joe's last name only by accident. What scares them?

At least they have Lutheran materials to read here, something entirely lacking at Church and Change, Rock and Roll Church, and their synod-within-a-synod.

UOJ Fanatics Divided on LutherQuest (sic)

Jack Cardinal Cascione, Cascione Synod


LutherQuest (sic) is enjoying a dust-up over the implications of Universal Objective Justification--forgiveness without faith, without the Word, without the Means of Grace.

Jack Cascione, who calls himself Cardinal, is fighting the denizens of his own creation. I cannot be sure what the key issues are, because the participant are all fairly confused.

The basic UOJ claim is:

Scripture teaches that God has already declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18-21; Rom. 4:25; that therefore not for the sake of their good works, but without the works of the Law, by grace, for Christ's sake, He justifies, that is, accounts as righteous, all those who believe, accept, and rely on, the fact that for Christ's sake their sins are forgiven.

This declaration of righeousness without the Means of Grace is, by definition in the Book of Concord, Enthusiasm and false doctrine. The error is derived from Walther, F. Pieper, and Pietism. Both men came from Pietism and never recovered fully from it.

In the 19th century, supposedly conservative Lutherans quoted Pietists all the time. Walther never criticized Spener by name, either because he honored Spener or because Spener's name was above reproach at that time.

UOJ became more ridiculous over time, but its origins go back to 1850 or so, no earlier. Luther and his followers did not teach UOJ. UOJ is not in the Bible, Luther, the Book of Concord, Chemnitz, Gerhard, or Calov.

The old Synodical Conference (LCMS, WELS, ELS) was weak on the efficacy of the Word, so that one doctrinal error influenced many other areas, such as their strange teaching of Receptionism.

The old Synodical Conference was also comfortable with Reformed theologians known to be conservative. The reason may be their origin in Europe when the Union Church was taking over completely. Yes, I realize the Missourians and Buffalosians were escaping the Union Church, but they took a lot of it with them. Otten and his friend Bischoff are examples of men who quote the Reformed without blushing.

LutherQuest (sic)
Erich Heidenreich, a dentist, made his debut on LQ questioning UOJ. He had many thoughtful posts. He then disappeared and came back retracting everything. He became a UOJ Enthusiast.

Rolf Preus took both sides of the issue, agreeing with justification by faith at one point. He also repented.

Jay Webber has appeared during the discussion to quote Pieper. That is like quoting Al Gore as an authority on man-made global warning.

Luther is never quoted on LutherQuest (sic). That is why I use (sic) after its name each time.

Cascione seems to be bending toward justification by faith, because the others are insisting that everyone in the world enjoys objective imputed righteousness.

UOJ is the doctrinal position of Church and Change. A cursory reading of Valleskey and Bivens will reveal that both Fuller students are ardent UOJ advocates and Church Shrinkers.

Obama Summarized

Round, Round, Get Around, I Get Around

VP Patterson, Southern Babtist Central District, WELS
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post ""This Little Light of Mine - They're Going To Hel...":

District VP Patterson really gets around.........

http://www.areasonforhope.net/index.shtml

***

GJ - Having a free vicar, paid from synod offerings, is a plus when enjoying an active political life.

Beyond Belief - Is Anyone Literate at Church and Change?

I am shaking with laughter. Read why, below.

Someone directed me to another Matt Doebler website. As Ichabodians know by now, he is the Church From Scratch guy. My guess is that he got in trouble for showing what he really liked on Church From Scratch, so now it just directs people to his Rock and Roll Babtist WELS mission.

Nevertheless, here is another website from the same church:

http://web.mac.com/pictureyourblessings/Parent/Home_Base.html

I am in favor of honoring soldiers.

I wonder if anyone can spell at the Rock and Roll Church. Here is one of the main pages:

http://web.mac.com/pictureyourblessings/Parent/The_Arsenol.html

Mrs. Ichabod saw the page across the room and said, "Where's the a in arsenal?"

The original Arsenal was in Venice. The specialized military factory could make a sea-going ship in record time. That made the Republic of Venice a world power for a long time.

Football Evangelism

Pastor Dobberstein. WELS, of course.



Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Church and Change Gimmicks At Christ the Rock:Shh...":

This may fit right in with another WELS congregation:
Men Need Faith (& Football)
Leader: Pastor Dobberstein

Meeting Day(s): Mondays
Meeting Time: 7:30 PM
Men need faith, fellowship, and football! This bible study, for men only, looks at the lives of great men of faith and then enjoys some fellowship and Monday Night Football. This Bible study meets only during the NFL regular season.

http://www.oursaviorsportorange.org/site/bibdisplay.asp?study_id=140001935&sec_id=140002949

***

GJ - Bible is spelled with a small b, but NFL is capitalized. I find that intriguing.

Try This Trick at Home

Start with this URL:

http://www.churchfromscratch.net/

Copy and paste it into your browser.

I will make it easier and link it from the words:

Church From Scratch

There is an automatic re-direct that takes the reader to

Joe's Rock and Roll Babtist-WELS Church:



Meet the Pastor
Pastor Matt Doebler has been our lead pastor at Christ the Rock since the Spring of 2006, when he moved to Round Rock with his wife and three kids: Maddie, Sam, and Caleb. His family is a constant source of support and encouragement to him through their areas of service, their examples, and their witness to the greatness of Jesus.

My Heart: Since I was born outside of Detroit, raised between Chicago and Milwaukee, and descended from generations of Chicago city folk, I have long had a heart for the urban and suburban areas of our country with all of their busyness, deep (often well-hidden) scars, and cultural diversity. I long for people who have heard little, if anything, about Jesus in these places to be transformed by His gospel power so that they can, in turn, take part in Jesus’ redemptive work in the cities.
On my iPod: Nickel Creek; David Crowder Band; U2; Third Day, and a lot of sermons

Favorite Food: Alaskan King Crab Legs

Favorite Movie:“The Empire Strikes Back” (along with all the original (not recent) Star Wars films)

Favorite Vacation Spot: San Antonio is right up at the top

Favorite Books:The Bible and The Lord of the Rings

Favorite Bible Verse: Psalm 73:23-26
23 Yet I am always with you;
you hold me by my right hand.
24 You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will take me into glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but you?
And earth has nothing I desire besides you.
26 My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart
and my portion forever.
NIV

And most anything by Asaph

---

GJ - But you have to look for the WELS part. Like most Church and Change ministers, Matt hides his confessional identity as much as possible. He could be anything, but that's the point.

Joe - Switch to De-Caff

Anonymous [aka Joe Krohn] has left a new comment on your post "Hey Joe from CrossWalk, Laveen, Arizona":

Hi Gregory. Nice to be on a first name basis with you. You must have been hanging out out on the C&C webserve list; or we know some common folks since I lived in PHX. Cool.
[GJ - the Church and Change list stopped or went secretive once people realized how much false doctrine was being peddled. Spelling was another issue, but you probably realize that by now.]

You still haven't answered my question regarding GCU. Since you haven't addressed it, I will assume it is true. That is the legalistic way, right? How do you reconcile badgering your fellow believers over alleged Reformed doctrine, and yet teach for an institution that claims to be "Non-Denominational Christian"? I wonder how GCU would view your anti-reformed sentiments and un-christian behavior?

[GJ - I did answer your false accusation, which is strange coming from a Babtist church affiliated with WELS. I agree with Luther and the Book of Concord. I have academic freedom in both schools. The only badgering being done right now is by Church and Change Quislings.]

Before I sign off for the day, you'll need to do a little more research for me. Where in the Bible does it say that we have to use an organ and an organist to lead worship from page 5 and 15 of TLH? I couldn't find the verse or verses either where it says that guitars and drums are not allowed in worship.

[GJ - Where did I say that? You can do better than a straw man fallacy.]

God Bless your evening.

Joe [Krohn, former CrossWalk Laveen member, current Rock and Roll Church member]

You may do well to review 1 Cor. 13.
[GJ - So I can feel the love from Church and Change, from CrossWalk and Rock and Roll? Why do you think I call 2929 The Love Shack?]

Hey Joe from CrossWalk, Laveen, Arizona

Hi Joe. So you were a member of CrossWalk in Laveen (Phoenix)? And now you are a member of Doebler's Rock and Roll Church?

I suggest you look over the Church From Scratch material that I posted for your convenience. Your pastor is promoting all kinds of Baptist and non-Christian stuff. Sure, the website went down after I exposed it, but the content is preserved. Your pastor has fingerprints all over that website. So does Paul Kelm plus Church and Change.

You are in one wild WELS district. South Central should be called Southern Babtist Central. Who is minding the store down there?

I just heard that ex-SP Gurgel just landed there too. I thought he was still in a secure, undisclosed location. I suggest not giving up his address to any forensic accountants. They might have a lot of questions.

Another Cup of Joe

From
: "Joe Krohn" |

To : church_and_change@yahoogroups.com


Subject : [church_and_change] Recent threads regarding fellowship, evangelism etc...

Date : Thu, Feb 23, 2006 12:55 PM



Dear Redeemed and fellow Brothers and Sisters of the WELS,

This internet, what a blessing...and a curse.

I don't think anyone is talking about changing doctrine. I think we
all agree that there are different ways of doing ministry as long as
it is Biblical and I haven't read anything on these threads that was
un-Biblical. I see alot (sic) of 'iron sharpening iron' as a good friend
of mine likes to say. I think we all agree that in general we can
do a better job as a Synod since our growth has been stagnant. If
we can glean some sucessful (sic) strategies from other sources we
should. We may even convert some of these 'heretics'. But I think
this is the rub. I think some have trouble separating these methods
from their doctrine. Because it is their idea, somehow it is
intertwined with their doctrine. It's kind of like separating the
sin from the sinner. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but it works. Or
taking a secular song and changing the lyrics to make it sacred.
Some folks just can't separate the old relationship of the melody
with the old lyrics even though the new song is God pleasing.
(especially for someone who may never have heard the 'old' song.)
It's just a point of perspective. I hope this helps.

Blessings to you all,

Joe



And here is another one::

Hi Pastor Frey and list,

Our Elders group is reading "Radical Reformission" by Mark
Driscoll. I highly recommend it. Parts of it make me
uncomfortable, but at the same time are convicting. I don't think
it's enough for us to just preach the Gospel in it's (sic) truth and
purity. Please don't misconstrue that statement as it's not pointed
at you. But as a whole, we do need to develope (sic) relationships with
people. Even if it's building the kingdom one soul at a time.
Jesus did so much more while he was here than just orate the good
news. When I was attending adult instruction and got to the part
about living in the world and not of the world, we were told that we
should hang out with fellow believers and stay away from the
unbelievers. Does this not fly in the face of what Jesus modeled
when He was on the Earth? Evangelism is dirty work. I work with a
gay man. If I don't have a relationship with him, how does he see
Jesus?

Blessings to all as we look forward once again to Christ's coming.

Joe

Team Patterson and The Church From Scratch

"How are you?" said one. "How are you?" said the other. "Well!" said the first. "Old Scratch has got his own at last, hey?" - An illustration from Dicken's Christmas Carol.

In case you wonder, the Church From Scratch website link was taken over by Matt Doebler's Rock and Roll WELS Babtist Church. The URL below does not work, but if the links part is removed from the address, the URL redirects to Christ the Rock.

The Wisconsin Synod never stops plagiarizing from Fuller Seminary and Willow Creek. Their illiterate leaders have managed to insert Satan's nickname into another project. Scratch is an English nickname for Satan. And Jesus called Satan The Father of Lies. That is appropriate, coming from the Church Growth Movement.

Church from Scratch is the rib-tickling name of the WELS website.

Whose name is first to appear on the links page? Paul Kelm - he has written a paper on Christian freedom.

Here are some of the links listed:

General Ministry
http://www.wels.net/
The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

http://www.churchandchange.org/
A WELS organization committed to address ministry in contemporary culture. Hosts great conferences and provides ministry ideas on the website.

http://www.crosswalkinlaveen.org/
God is doing some really neat things in the area of small groups, large gatherings, etc, through Crosswalk Lutheran Ministries in Phoenix, AZ.

Messiah Church in Nampa, ID has a neat statement of faith. [GJ - Ichabodians will note that the neat statement of faith was originally written by that anti-CGM pariah, me. But they have tweaked it so that their added words fall harshly on the unwaxed ear. "In an age of materialism, we believe that real treasure comes from our raith in the Savior." Is raith the future pluperfect subjunctive of faith?]

http://www.crossroadschicago.org/aboutus.html
Progressive ministry in the heart of Chicago; also has a great statement of faith.

www.apostlessj.org/Church/MinistriesActivities/ASV.html
Excellent example of a vision for a church plant/daughter congregation.

http://www.marshillchurch.org/
This is Mars Hill Church in Seattle, WA. From a Calvinistic background. The preaching is excellent and very law/gospel oriented, speaking powerfully to the culture around them. Mark Driscoll is the senior pastor

http://www.xenos.org/
This is Xenos Christian Fellowship in Columbus, OH. From an evangelical background. A congregation of thousands made up entirely of house churches. Very good mindset material and studies. Great on leadership/eldership.

***

GJ - I attended a Sunday service at Xenos in Columbus. The minister got in the pulpit and talked about himself for 40 minutes before God or the Scriptures were mentioned. The proper verb is mentioned, because the talk had nothing to do with worship, the Christian faith, God, or anything spiritual. The audience cooed and fluttered during the minister's preening, egomaniacal monologue. Not surprisingly, the minister at Community of Joy (Phoenix) gave the same kind of talk with the same results. Willow Creek had a more somber audience but the same baloney. They all sound alike.

Notice the trend, which is just as prominent in the Church of the Lutheran Confession (sic). Apostate Lutherans covet non-Lutherans so passionately that they become anti-Lutheran in thought, word, and deed.

The authors of this bizarre website have bios that remind me of fingernails scratching a blackboard:

Matt Doebler
Matt has served as a parish pastor in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod for the last eight years. After graduating from Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in 1997, he was called to St. Peter's Evangelical Lutheran Church in Collins, WI where he served for four years. In 2001, he accepted a call to St. Paul's Evangelical Lutheran Church in Wisconsin Rapids, WI. In the spring of 2006, he accepted a call to assist in planting Christ the Rock Church in Round Rock, TX. He is the proud husband of Christine, a Pilates/fitness instructor who uses her contacts in the fitness world to make connections for Jesus. He is also the proud father of three great kids, Madeline, Samuel and Caleb. They are great assets to him in the ministries into which God has placed him. Matt has been trained as an equipper in the Christ Care program from Stephen Ministries. He and Chris have also participated in the Church Planters training from Acts 29 Network.

[GJ - Acts 29 is a unionistic group, which is seen as a threat to Southern Baptists. That makes sense, because WELS is a unionistic sect, known as a threat to Lutheran doctrine.]

Ken Knapp

Ken retired early from the paper/hydro industries to do more ministry. Historically, he's served in most of the offices of a local congregation. His greatest passion is for nurturing life-long discipleship, and thus he logically serves on the WELS Commission on Adult Discipleship (CAD). Ken envisions a church functioning in our culture with the passion and effectiveness of an "Acts 2" church. He is the author of the soon-to-be-released book, A Womb to Tomb Guide for Nurturing Faith in and through the Family through the CAD.

GJ - I can think of better, rhyming names for the newest apostasy book -

1. From Cell to Sell.
2. Have an Itch? - Try Old Scratch!
3. Faith without Belief - The Paul Kelm School of Evangelism.

--

Comments on this topic, from Bailing Water:




Anonymous said...
It's incredible. One day, blog moderation is disabled, another day it is enabled. What a joke. Make up your mind and decide what it's going to be, because it gives the impression that you weed out comments that hurt your opinions.

June 6, 2008 12:00 AM


John said...
Hey mr. anonymous,

Why don't you start your own blog. You can set your own topics and moderation settings.

There are times when I'm out of town and can't moderate comments. There are also topics that bring out comments that are off topic and not necessary. I guess if you don't like what I'm doing don't come back. (moderation on)

June 6, 2008 12:15 AM


Anonymous said...
Yeah you tell him John. If you can't stand the heat stay out of John's kitchen. Wus

June 6, 2008 5:24 AM


Anonymous said...
I agree Go John!!...it is so funny to see these WELS bots get so irritated and defensive when the truth is pointed out.

June 6, 2008 8:51 AM


Comment deleted
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

June 6, 2008 9:13 AM


Anonymous said...
WELS has discovered a new sin - the sin of turning off the comments when out of town. Have you no shame, Bailing Water?

I had to vent a little.

Bespoke.

June 6, 2008 9:20 AM


Anonymous said...
Isn't that what the WELS does best- invent new sins so that Bailing Water can point them out?

WELS bot

June 6, 2008 10:29 AM


Anonymous said...
WELS bot,

How about we focus on the topic at hand.

What do you think of the church growth churches listed and their influence on the WELS?

June 6, 2008 10:47 AM


Anonymous said...
I think it is shameful. And I believe that the only answer is to give a firm and brotherly admonishment founded on scripture to show why these things are destructive. I believe this is what is being done by people who do not use blogs to do so.

WELS bot

June 6, 2008 11:02 AM


Anonymous said...
The WELS cannot err.
These churches are WELS.
These churches cannot err.

Whirr-buzz-click-click,
WELS bot #4738

June 6, 2008 11:13 AM


Anonymous said...
There are two things that bother me. If WELS is a confessional church - then it should confess. To leave out the name Lutheran in a church title is to try to have it both ways. Second, by leaving out the name Lutheran and using the names like:Crosswalk; Willow Creek, Cornerstone ,etc. you are giving a false impression to those twenty-somethings who assume it is a non-denominational church.

June 6, 2008 11:39 AM


Anonymous said...
Please tell me how the WELS allows this WELS pastor to claim support of these heterodox churches?

June 6, 2008 1:03 PM


Anonymous said...
This pastor from scratch goes unchecked because the WELS is steeped in Church growth methods.

June 6, 2008 10:24 PM

Feel the Love - From Doebler's Rock and Roll Church

For some reason, the Church From Scratch website is down, but I quoted it extensively in a previous post. Yes, Doebler was involved.

What's your beef with WELS? I don't see anywhere that you are affiliated with WELS. Aren't there bigger fish to fry in the CG movement? You sound like sour grapes.

[GJ - Why stick to the doctrinal issues when it is so easy to make personal attacks?]

You said: "That applies to private sin, not published false doctrine. Christ the Rock is an Enthusiastic partner of Church and Change. Therefore, the congregation cannot hide behind Matthew 18."

From everything I know of CTR and C&C, that's a little legalistic now isn't it? Especially coming from a staunch Confessional Lutheran as yourself that is employed by a BAPTIST college. Doh!!

[GJ - I see the stumblebums at Church and Change are involved in opposition research, with the expected results. I do not work at any Baptist college. I never have. Both schools where I work are privately held corporations, not church owned at all. I told several WELS clergy that my non-Lutheran students never object to my Luther references and Luther quotations. And yet, that is the most common complaint from WELS and the CLC (sic) - that I quote Luther.]

Who is your WELS friend? I'd like to know what was so sickening at CTR. He should have come forward and brought the offenses before the Eldership instead of confiding in someone who is more intent on tearing down the body instead of building it up.

[GJ - Maybe you could do a marketing survey and find out who objects to the Rock and Roll church. WELS Pastor Mark Freier tried the same thing. He does Hindu and atheist weddings now. Young Church Growther - Old Atheist.]

I must have missed it somewhere. Where is your parish again?

Joe

[GJ - Joe, or whatever your real name is. You did miss it. Glendale, Arizona.]

---

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Feel the Love - From Doebler's Rock and Roll Churc...":

If you don't work for GCU, then you should change your profile on your web page here:

http://www.gljackson.com/professional.htm

I knew some people that attended GCU. It was pretty much a Baptist School.

***

GJ - Pretty much it is not a Baptist school. The original school was insolvent after the Baptist Foundation ended up being a Ponzi scheme. Everyone lost 90% of the money invested. I do not know what Grand Canyon lost, but they ended their Baptist affiliation at that point. A businessman stepped in and decided to create a school which was both bricks-and-mortar and online. The school has grown 500% in a few years, so I am busy teaching a variety of courses. The school hopes to go public and issue stock.

Church and Change Gimmicks At Christ the Rock:Shhh! Don't Admit It's Lutheran

Matt Doebler, Christ the Rock, Texas Division, Church and Change. Matt went to hear Babtist Ed Stetzer at a unionistic conference, but gets a fat Kingdom Workers grant. Thanks, Jeff Davis, C and C Kingdom Workers.


Jeff Davis - You are welcome, Matt, C and C Texas Division, Patterson Network.

Women - Aerobics and Bible Studies to Mix!
Matt Doebler
[GJ - Why didn't Jesus think of this?]


Offer a Bible class, which strengthens the body & spirit. Find an aerobic woman who enjoys working out and studying the Bible. Aerobic training is a plus, although she could just use videos. It could be 2 leaders - 1 physical and 1 spiritual. Find a Bible study, which can be broken up into 20-minute sections (one section per session). Break the class up into 20 minute Bible study and 40-50 minute aerobic workout with toning. Use a gym or larger classroom for workout and studying on the floor. Meet weekly. Keep to 7 or 8-week sessions.


Email: doeblermc@yahoo.com


Website - Ministry Resource
Matt Doebler
[GJ - Develop an ugly website based on Fuller marketing principles]


Develop a website, which shares ministry resources (such as special services, Bible studies), for different areas of ministry. Find someone who has web-developing skills. Does not need to be an expert. Basic skills are needed. Find a free or cheap web server. Figure out your goals. Who is your target audience? What do you want to share? Find some dependable contributors who will submit quality material. This will save you some time on reviewing everything that you are given to publish. Use MS Word format for submitted material and "save as ... web page". Can import easily into web pages. Other technical issues, consult an expert. Keep updating periodically - an unchanging web site is a dead web site. Promote by any means possible. I have tried the WorldWide Winkel & conferences

Frosty Bivens - Church Growth Advocate

Forrest Bivens, one of the Church Growth professors
at the Sausage Factory, Mequon.

I was standing in the driveway with the Midland, Michigan circuit pastors, at the home of Pastor John Seifert, before he was District Pope. Frosty Bivens was there. So was Tim Buelow. Seifert and the other pastors were all standing around in one circle.

The conversation was memorable and brief. Terry Nukolls was discussed. Bivens said, "Nitz is the second most spineless DP in WELS." Someone asked, "Who is the most spineless?" Bivens said, "Mueller." That was a shocker, because the establishment pastors normally spoke favorably about everyone in power.

Soon I was discussing the Church Growth Movement. Bivens said, "I went to Fuller Seminary and I happen to believe we can use Church Growth methods to bring people in, so we can apply the Means of Grace."

I said something very critical about anyone going to Fuller Seminary.

Buelow chimed in by criticizing Bivens directly, pointing out how disappointing it was for someone to leave the LCA (as I did) and to hear something like that.

Bivens went inside and sat with the women. I was told, "No one does that at a WELS pastors' gathering."

Twice after that, Seifert bragged about how orthodox the Northern Conference of the Michigan District was, and how his circuit was perfect. Bivens was part of both, so I reminded him about Fuller each time. Seifert said each time, just like the Chicago cash-register artists when caught short-changing me, "Oh!" He forgot.

Soon after, Bivens joined his friend Valleskey at the Sausage Factory.

So students would come up to Bivens and say, because of my publications, "Where does Jackson get the idea that you went to Fuller?"

He always responded, "I don't know."

Valleskey never admitted going to Fuller to me, and even denied it to my face, but he admitted his attendance there to David Koenig, CLC (sic), who was angry that I published that fact.

So what do we call someone who calls the truth-teller a liar?

Answer - a seminary professor.

Krauth Quoted - An Old and Annoying Quotation, Because It Is So Appropriate Today

From Bailing Water:

Monday, October 27, 2008
Fundamental - non-fundamental

Freddy said...

Years ago, I read an essay by Dr. P.E. Kretzmann: Fundamental and Non-fundamental Doctrines — and Church Fellowship. In this article, Dr. Kretzmann quotes from Dr. C.P. Krauth regarding the "Course of Error in the Church." It was this quote that inspired me to find a copy of Krauth's Conservative Reformation and it's Theology, and read it (this was before CPH started reprinting it). This is the quote:

"When error is admitted into the Church, it will be found that the stages in its progress are always three. It begins by asking toleration. Its friends say to the majority: 'You need not be afraid of us; we are few and weak; let us alone, we shall not disturb the faith of others. The Church has her standards of doctrine; of course we shall never interfere with them; we only ask for ourselves to be spared interference with our private opinions.' Indulged in for this time, error goes on to assert equal rights. Truth and error are balancing forces. The Church shall do nothing which looks like deciding between them; that would be partiality. It is bigotry to assert any superior right for the truth. We are to agree to differ, and any favoring of the truth, because it is truth, is partisanship. What the friends of truth and error hold in common is fundamental. Anything on which they differ is ipso facto non-essential. Anybody who makes account of such a thing is a disturber of the peace of the Church. Truth and error are two coordinate powers, and the great secret of church-statesmanship is to preserve the balance between them. From this point error soon goes on to its natural end, which is to assert supremacy. Truth started with tolerating; it comes to be merely tolerated, and that only for a time. Error claims a preference for its judgments on all disputed points. It puts men into positions, not as at first in spite of their departure from the Church’s faith, but in consequence of it. Their repudiation is that they repudiate that faith, and position is given them to teach others to repudiate it, and to make them skillful in combating it. (p. 195 f.)."

This is wise insight from a man who witnessed the decline of Lutheranism first hand, who had the courage to publicly fight against the error which was causing it, and to work toward unity. His effort not only made him a celebrated figure of his time, but a largely credible one as well.

Making application to our own time, Rev. Paul Kelm and company were asking for toleration two decades ago, and, using much the same “gee, they're so full of evangelical zeal, and such good Christian men” reasoning displayed by “WELS Pastor,” they were granted it. Some in our midst are still asking for toleration. Strident agents of "change," such as "WELS Pastor," it seems, are long past asking for toleration, however. They are demanding equivalency. It's obvious they intend to run a parallel church before moving to Krauth's final step of asserting supremacy. This is, after all, the objective of “change.”

But, while Krauth was addressing doctrine, are we not, in our case, looking at Lutheran practice? Yes and no. We are rightly concerned with practice as it is a reflection of what we Confess, and we see evidence of doctrinal error in the practice of the C&C crowd. When those who confess doctrinal unity with us engage in practice that is confusing or offensive, we have every right to demand of them an explanation, and they have every obligation to render one. Drawing the C&C or CG crowd into explanation of their practice, more and more, it seems, exposes their divergence from us and their disregard for anything more then rhetorical unity. So, while we take our queue from confusing and offensive practices endorsed by the C&C church-growthers, our concern is Confessional integrity.

As I continue to read and study, I am growing convinced that earlier discussions on this point are correct: WELS is facing a Confessional crisis.

My thoughts,

Freddy Finkelstein

***

GJ - To be precise, WELS has been avoiding a Confessional crisis for 20 years. The continued existence of Church and Change, the position of Bruce Becker in the catbird seat, the call of Paul Kelm, and the 2009 Ed Stetzer invitation - all point to a Confessional dissolution.

If the pastors can grow a spine and the laity pitch in to help, the Word can be applied to defeat this cancer. Without the Word, human effort is worthless and pointless.

Confusion Reigns in Church and Change

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "The Love That Dare Not Speak Its Name: Stealth Con...":

You're going to have to back up your claims with scripture, my friend. Have you done your biblical responsibility and contacted these folks in private before publicly humiliating them with your un-biblical divisive behavior?

Sincerely,
A member of CTR
jkrohn@keyovation.com

***

GJ - I am waiting for the Church and Change people to observe their new versions of Matthew 18 and the 8th Commandment. The false teachers can slander anyone they want and invent all kinds of stories. They do this behind everyone's back because they are cowards. But they demand that nothing about their wolf-ministry be discussed, even though they publish their errors and clamor to spend offering money on Baptists and New Age Methodists.

Here is Matthew 18 -

KJV Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

That applies to private sin, not published false doctrine. Christ the Rock is an Enthusiastic partner of Church and Change. Therefore, the congregation cannot hide behind Matthew 18.

A WELS pastor I know recently visited Rock and Roll, as they call this C and C outpost. He was sickened by what he saw. I publicly opposed this nonsense 15 years ago, but that was solo. Now the laity are catching on. The pastors are still too timid to do much.

Issues in WELS closed down its website. Church and Change has a new conference coming up. That tells outsiders all they need to know.

And I Was -- Not -- There

Anonymous said...
Bloomington Lutheran (WELS, Bloomington, MN) was knee-deep into Faith Inkubators. In fact, Rich Melheim gave a presentation one Sunday in ~2001 during the Adult Bible Study Hour. We later suffered through GIFT (Generations in Faith Together), the small group Sunday Bible study format that FINK advocated.

Sorry for the Greg Jackson impersonation, but I am a first-hand witness.

ELSer

October 27, 2008 10:27 AM

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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "And I Was -- Not -- There":

My intent was a back-handed compliment. My apologies if offense was taken.

ELSer

***

GJ - I took it as a compliment.

Blarney from Apostate on Bailing Water Blog

Anonymous said...
As a WELS pastor, what I'm afraid of is printing my name on your blog and others, and then getting my reputation crucified on a public forum. I have heard the charges and insinuations of your blog and others; but when I talk to the men you have demonized, I realize they are Scriptural, orthodox teachers and preachers of the Word. They may feel there is nothing wrong with blended worship services--they may even utilize contemporary worship forms. They may even (gasp!) administer the Lord's Supper separate from the regular worship service. If you have ever lived outside the friendly confines of the Midwest, you know visitors can get very put out with the practice of closed communion. The early believers celebrated it privately among themselves. All of these things do not make them heterodox. These men have a love for the Word and a love for people, and they want to see their people in heaven someday. I have never attended a Church and Change conference, but there have been several presentations over the years I would have loved to sat in on. C and C offers a great deal when it comes to the nuts and bolts of practical every-day ministry. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! And no, I will not give you my name!

October 26, 2008 6:53 PM

Another Ugly from Anonymous

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Is Obama Qualified To Run for President?":

"Inelible (sic) to run."

For all the railing you do on spelling, you might want to check yours.

Cheers.

***

GJ - Literate readers have noticed that I correct many posts up to five times: clarifications and spelling.

I send corrections to many different websites, in a friendly way, and I always sign my name. I find it odd that people leave grotesque errors on their websites for months at a time. For WELS Church and Change, it makes sense. They care as little about English grammar as they do about the grammar of faith - theology. I borrowed the last term from the sainted Paul L. Holmer, who taught ethics and philosophy at Yale.

Is Obama Qualified To Run for President?

See this link for the video, about the lawsuit to produce Obama's birth certificate.

There are claims he was born in Africa. That would count him out.

We know for certain (from his book) that Obama went to school in Indonesia. Lawyer Phil Berg claims that could have been possible only if Obama became an Indonesian citizen, after being adopted by his step-father. Coming back to America would have made Obama a naturalized citizen, not a natural born citizen, hence ineligible to run for president, even if he was born in Hawaii.

Old, Annoying Quotations about the Word of God

The Gospel is not strong with these members.

"The Word of God is efficacious not only when it is being read from the Bible, but also when it is being spoken or preached, and when it is recalled by memory. The Word of God, properly speaking, is really not the letters which we see or the sound which we hear, but the divine thoughts, the truths designated by these signs."

E. Hove, Christian Doctrine, Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1930, p. 27.



"'When the Word is read at home it is not as fruitful or as forcible as in public preaching and through the mouth of the preacher whom God has called for this purpose.' (Luther, Erlangen edition, 3:401)."

Henry Eyster Jacobs, A Summary of the Christian Faith, Philadelphia: General Council Publication House, 1913, p. 290.



"The efficacy of the Word, unlike that of the seed, always has a result. The man to whom the Word of God comes, and who repels it, is not as he was before. Where long and persistently refused, hardening at last comes, Exodus 8:15; 9:12; John 12:40; Hebrews 4:1, and the Word becomes a 'savor of death unto death,' 2 Corinthians 2:16. Every word heard or read, every privilege and opportunity enjoyed, leaves its impress either for good or for evil. It is not so properly the Word, as man's abuse of the Word; not so much the efficacy of the Word, as the sin taking occasion of the efficacy that produces this result, Romans 7:8."

Henry Eyster Jacobs, Elements of Religion, Philadelphia, Board of Publication, General Council 1919 p. 155. Exodus 8:15; 9:12; John 12:40; Hebrews 4:1; 2 Corinthians 2:16; Romans 7:8



"Since the Word of God is this weapon [sword], it behooves us to make use of it at all times and to this end become acquainted with it both by means of public preaching and by earnest Bible study at home. Cursory reading must be supplemented by careful memorizing of proof-texts and strong passages. Only in this way shall we be able to make the proper use of the Word of God as a true weapon of offense at all times."

Paul E. Kretzmann, Popular Commentary of the New Testament, 2 vols., St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, II, p. 292. Ephesians 6:17



"God has chosen despised and frail human beings for the ministry of the Word that the divine power of the Word might become apparent—

a power impossible to suppress even in the weakest of persons. Moreover, if the mighty of the world were to preach the Gospel, people would be captivated more by the authority of the person preaching than by the Word itself."

What Luther Says, An Anthology, 3 vols., ed. Ewald M. Plass, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House 1959 III, p. 1118 W 25, 255; SL 6, 484; brief comments in 1532-34 #3571; Isaiah 40:10



"Quenstedt (I, 170): 'Whether the Word be read or not, whether it be heard and believed or not, yet the efficacy of its spiritual effects is always intrinsically inherent in it by the divine arrangement and communication, nor does this divine efficacy only come to it when it is used. For the Word of God, as such, cannot even be conceived of apart from the divine virtue and gracious working of the Holy Spirit, because this is inseparable from the Word of God.'"

Heinrich Schmid, Doctrinal Theology of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, trans., Charles A. Hay and Henry E. Jacobs, Philadelphia: United Lutheran Publication House, 1899, p. 506.



"Hollazius (993) uses the following figures: 'It possesses and retains its internal power and efficacy even when not used, just as the illuminating power of the sun continues, although, when the shadow of the moon intervenes, no person may see it; and just as an internal efficacy belongs to the seed, although it may not be sown in the field.'"

Heinrich Schmid, Doctrinal Theology of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, trans., Charles A. Hay and Henry E. Jacobs, Philadelphia: United Lutheran Publication House, 1899, p. 506.



"Only little weight is attached to the ministry of the Word, to worship services, the Sacraments, to confession and absolution, and to the observance of Christian customs; a thoroughly regenerated person does not need these crutches at all. Pietism stressed the personal element over against the institutional; voluntariness versus compulsion; the present versus tradition, and the rights of the laity over against the pastors."

Martin Schmidt, "Pietism," The Encyclopedia of the Lutheran Church, 3 vols., ed. Julius Bodensieck, Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1965, III, p. 1899.



"But if ordination be understood as applying to the ministry of the Word, we are not unwilling to call ordination a sacrament. For the ministry of the Word has God's command and glorious promises. Romans 1:16 The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Likewise, Isaiah 55:11: So shall My Word be that goeth forth out of My mouth; it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please...And it is of advantage, so far as can be done, to adorn the ministry of the Word with every kind of praise against fanatical men, who dream that the Holy Ghost is given not through the Word, but because of certain preparations of their own...."

Apology Augsburg Confession, XIII. #11. Number/Use Sacraments Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 311. Tappert, p. 212. Heiser, p. 95. Romans 1:16; Isaiah 55:11.



"And it is of advantage, so far as can be done, to adorn the ministry of the Word with every kind of praise against fanatical men, who dream that the Holy Ghost is given not through the Word, but because of certain preparations of their own, if they sit unoccupied and silent in obscure places, waiting for illumination, as the Enthusiasts formerly taught, and the Anabaptists now teach."

Apology Augsburg Confession, XIII. #13. The Sacraments. Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 311. Tappert, p. 213. Heiser, p. 95.



"This power {the Keys} is exercised only by teaching or preaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments, according to their calling, either to many or to individuals. For thereby are granted, not bodily, but eternal things, as eternal righteousness, the Holy Ghost, eternal life. These things cannot come but by the ministry of the Word and the Sacraments, as Paul says, Romans 1:16: The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Therefore, since the power of the Church grants eternal things, and is exercised only by the ministry of the Word, it does not interfere with civil government; no more than the art of singing interferes with civil government."

Augsburg Confession, XXVIII. #8. Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 85. Tappert, p. 82. Heiser, p. 23. Romans 1:16



"Know, therefore, that you must be concerned not only about hearing, but also about learning and retaining it in memory, and do not think that it is optional with you of no great importance, but that it is God's commandment, who will require of you how you have heard, learned, and honored His Word."

The Large Catechism, The Third Commandment, #98. Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 609. Tappert, p. 378. Heiser, p. 175. Exodus 20:8-11.