Lito Cruz on the UOJ Magisterium

John,

You asked…Would it, in your view, LPC, be orthodox if it was explained that OJ meant objectively the forgiveness of sins has been won?

It would be orthodox if they drop the category and terminology of OJ. They admit it is a 19th century innovation.

The immaculate conception of Mary by the Romanists is also an 18th century innovation!!
So here, the UOJers and their Synodical Magisterium and Roman Catholics are quite similar!!

The former says, hey it is taught by Scripture, Confessions. The UOJers believe that their Synod Fathers can simply introduce innovative ways of speaking etc etc. So they are acting like the Magisterium.
Do you remember R. Neuhaus? He was LC-MS and he became Roman!!!

Father Neuhaus supported Seminex, the first gay Lutheran seminary,
chaired by UOJ champion (from WELS) Richard Jungkuntz.

Why? Because Neuhas said well my Synodical Magisterium can behave like Romans, I might as well be Roman since the latter has a better historical pedigree. Read his testimony, please.
Here is what I say…

Eduard Preuss defended UOJ in print,
then joined the Church of Rome and defended Marian doctrines.

At the cross, Jesus has won for us the forgiveness of sins, he possesses it. In fact the BoC authors in and BoC editors spoke if winning in that respect. The problem is the rubber band use of the term Justfication. They call the winning of forgiveness as the justification of the world, see again the famous loved verse Romans 4:25.

They should not use that word to describe that event, the winning of forgiveness as the justification of the world, properly speaking, because in fact Jesus calls his sacrifice a ransom! He did not I believe teach that by his death everyone is already justified without faith and prior to faith. For Justfication when used is connected always to faith and so personal and subjectively applied.

But in Article 17b, 1932 Brief Statement runs contrary to the ransom language of Jesus, it says Scripture teaches that God has already declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18-21; Rom. 4:25

The other bits of that article is correct but this bit is wrong.

Now, why the huh-hah of so called heretics like me? It is because that small statement is not benign. First it is not Biblical and that is the source of confusion.

You can read about people confused about this in the comments around here. See how people in their churches says, this and that is just a remembrance etc etc.

They are confused! In fact that is the judgement of Andrew, read his post, he says they should be re-indoctrinated, sent back to the camp and re-programmed etc., so to speak.

If so, then the problem lies with that OJ teaches that it’s not that it has been won but, rather, UOJ goes further by saying it has been distributed objectively?

Yes, because justification is alway distribution and when you connect and call the winning as justification then you are saying, it has been distributed already too.

You are right that is why you note Pr. Webber, jumped in here. He claims no one claims this. Is this true?
He may deny it but that is the fruit of UOJ, is to confuse. In my opinion, the UOJers are sophists whether they realize it or not or at least unknowingly being sophists. This the BoC condemned. Read about how the BoC writers often speak about the sophistry of Papist.

Like I said, the extra Confessional and Biblical statements the Synodical Authorities there have made is similar to the way the Roman Magisterium operate.

In order to justify new and innovative ideas of thinking about salvation, they had to innovate concepts and terminologies.

Like I said John, in all of anti-UOJers debate, the best passage UOJers have in claiming that the world has been declared righteous, justified already is Romans 4:25.

This is why in all of the Protestant world, the LC-MS/WELS/ELS is peculiar. Ask any independent exegete of honest repute and sincere repute if by reading Romans 4:25, he can affirm that the world has been justified already. Which independent exegetes affirm this? None, they all comre from their own seminaries
The only one who tried to stir them in the correct direction was Walter A. Maier but some negotiation happened which I won’t get into.

When you challenge them, they simply say – all are wrong and heretics we hold the true Lutheran and true Church teaching.

That behaviour is Roman, I know too because I was a Roman Catholic kid.

John, I am sorry that I am tired, I am almost done, you know where to find me if I could be of help to your studies.

LPC.

Critique of Sig Becker by LCMS-ELS Fave Tom Hardt

This photo and link from The Sausage Factory website
proves that Sig Becker is their expert on UOJ.

AC V has left a new comment on your post "UOJ Stormtroopers Remind Me of the Pro-Abortion Fo...":

No one at Steadfast Lutherans or LutherQuest evaluated the ramifications of the UOJ WELS Siegbert Becker taught, a UOJ that denied the efficacy of the means of grace, a UOJ that got the Krohn's disciplined in their WELS church. WELS pastors ought to review what they were taught by Becker. According to Steadfast Lutherans, the LC-MS rejects his formulation of UOJ. Below is the Becker UOJ as critiqued by the Swedes. For the complete reference see footnote 75 in the Hardt paper.

2) Absolution and the means of grace are downgraded to means of communication and deprived of their efficacy. S. Becker. op. cit., p. 55, interprets John 20:23: “they are remitted unto them” as a reference to what has already happened at Calvary, p. 56: “The meaning is this: ‘They have been forgiven completely in the past, and they still are forgiven now. This means that when we preach the message of the Gospel, we do not effect the remission of sins through our sermon.’” (tr. from Swedish).

3) Universal justification is said to be the contents of the sermon to be delivered to the heathen without any previous reference to the Law. This striking similarity to Huber’s pastoral advice to the Wittenberg theologians, quoted above in our article, is found in Becker, op. cit., p. 56 f. (tr. from Swedish): “In America it is very common that Reformed missionaries tell a man whom they try to gain: ‘Are you saved?’ … It is, however, not likely that a Lutheran missionary would ask: ‘Are you saved?’, as the experience of conversion is not so important from his theological point of view. As he believes in universal redemption and in universal justification it is more likely that he changes the order of the words and says: ‘You are saved,’ ‘Your sins are forgiven unto you.’ He can say so to everyone, as he knows that it is true about everyone.” Through the centuries Huber’s missionary sermon: “Habetis gratiam Dei” resounds in the 20th century.

Undoubtedly Söderlund’s fears concerning the theology introduced through Becker into Sweden seem reasonably justified.

UOJ Stormtroopers Remind Me of the Pro-Abortion Forces

Rolf Preus on LaughQuest:


I don’t know Rev. Rydecki. I do know most of the men associated with the Sabre of Boldness Award and they are orthodox Lutherans. I went to the Steadfast Lutherans website to find Rev. Rydecki’s comments. David Schumacher has correctly quoted him. It’s quite disappointing to read Rev. Rydecki’s comments. I certainly hope that the men who gave him this award will hasten to distance themselves from what he has said on this topic. The denial that God for Christ sake has forgiven the sins of the whole world is a very serious error. Friends don’t let friends deny objective justification without setting them straight! 

Reading through the debate on the Steadfast Lutherans website brings to mind the many times I have participated in a debate on this topic over the years and I think of the French proverb, “Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose!”

What it really comes down to is the meaning of the gospel itself. To assert a universal redemption while denying a universal justification is to demonstrate a lack of understanding of the very nature of the gospel. I used to think that it was just that they didn’t understand words and did not understand that redemption entailed setting free and not merely paying the price to set free, that atonement entailed reconciliation, that reconciliation meant the cessation of God’s wrath, etc. But their problem is not primarily with misunderstanding the meaning of the specific soteriological terms – though it may begin there. It runs much deeper. They don’t understand the gospel. In their mind, the work of Christ hasn’t really achieved anything. Not really. Not so really that you can tell someone, “Son, be of good cheer, your sins are forgiven you.” But that's what Jesus said, and St. Matthew points out that God had given such power to men (plural) and not to Jesus alone.

Justification is for faith. That’s where the rubber hits the road. Objective justification is the assertion that faith has something real to grasp. To assert justification through faith alone while denying objective justification is to twist justification through faith into justification because of faith and once faith becomes the catalyst by which sins are forgiven fideism is given sanction and approval when it really ought to be exposed and rejected as the source of uncertainty.

***

GJ -
1. Read your father's book with discernment, Rolf.
2. Read P. Leyser's rebuke of Samuel Huber.
3. Take a deep, cleansing breath. Repent and retract.

Rolf Preus just condemned this repudiation of Samuel Huber.
He also imagines that Romans 4:24-25 absolves the world of sin.

---

KJV Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

PS - About the pro-abortion forces. They are going crazy over the fact that the Susan B. Komen Foundation is no longer funding Planned Parenthood to the tune of $700,000 a year. This charity bills itself as a fight against breast cancer, and abortion increases the risk of breast cancer.

Now the pro-abortion forces are attacking the Komen charity for no longer funding them, and all the pro-abortion people are chiming in. That only alerts people to fact of Planned Parenthood's abortion business and advocacy. I seldom write much about it on this blog because the readers are pro-life.

On Facebook I post many pro-life messages because babies need advocates too.

The UOJ Stormtroopers remind me of the pro-abortion lobbies because they pounce on every mention of justification by faith and vow to straighten out anyone who allows someone to voice what Luther taught, what the Book of Concord confessed, what the Scriptures clearly reveal.

Debate is good because the hidden agenda comes out into the daylight. Rolf Preus has stated on LaughQuest repeated that Romans 4:25 is the absolution of the world's sin. Nothing like that is revealed, and   his weak argument collapses completely with the inclusion of Romans 4:24 and the context of the two verses as the end of Romans 4, the transition to Romans 5 - justification by faith.

The Stormtroopers are like the abortionists because they use the logical fallacy of special pleading as their only method. There is only one side, theirs, and only one set of authorities to quote, theirs. Anyone else is a heretic.

On this blog and in my books I have no trouble quoting all their authorities and many more they have never read. I do this to let people study the sources and see for themselves. As soon as the Stormtroopers realize they are out-gunned and out-numbered, they turn incredibly nasty.

---

LPC has left a new comment on your post "UOJ Stormtroopers Remind Me of the Pro-Abortion Fo...":

Pr. Greg,

The perversion of this Preus descendant is astounding.

Here is what the test said

Matthew 9:2
And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

This Preus wants to declare to everyone be they have faith or not, "Be of good cheer, your sins are forgiven you".

This is universalism, and a perversion of the Sacred Text, a twisting of the Words of Jesus.

LPC

---

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "UOJ Stormtroopers Remind Me of the Pro-Abortion Fo...":

Rolf Preus states, "They don’t understand the gospel. In their mind, the work of Christ hasn’t really achieved anything. Not really. Not so really that you can tell someone, “Son, be of good cheer, your sins are forgiven you." ...YOU ARE JUSTIFIED, RIGHTEOUS IN CHRIST AND ABSOLVED OF ALL SIN - AND YOU ARE CONDEMNED TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IT.

I added the bolded parts as they fully express the teaching of UOJ.

That was a good discussion if only to allow them more rope. They certainly confessed all manner of false teachings which anyone willing to compare with the Lutheran Confessions and the Scripture passages presented can see for themselves. Even the rational thought used to subject Scripture to human reason was clearly shown.

An introduction to Swedish pietism « Churchmouse Campanologist

This is Augustana College's Old Main building,
above the Mississippi River  Valley.
I met Mrs. Ichabod on the first day of  classes.

An introduction to Swedish pietism « Churchmouse Campanologist:

"Yesterday’s post on Dwight Moody mentioned how popular his sermons and the hymns of his associate Ira D Sankey were with Swedish pietists.

Although neither visited Sweden, their influence, particularly between 1875 and 1880 during a time called ‘Moody Fever’, is still acknowledged today, as we’ll see.

A group of Swedish pietists in the United States publish a journal called Pietisten (Pietist), based in Minneapolis (emphases mine):"

***

My German professor created this watercolor of the Denkmann Library, where I worked,
with Old Main in the background.

GJ - The Swedish Augustana Synod was a major component of the Lutheran Church in America merger in 1962, with about 400,000 members. The group began as a Pietistic migration to America but changed course  under various influences, including Passavant.

My mother was the first in her family to graduate from college.
Her four children earned 12 academic degrees and two CPA designations.

I worked at the Augustana library and helped archive ancient, dusty bound volumes of Pietisten. I never realized I would write my dissertation about a man who taught on that campus, who was probably my mother's undergraduate professor. A. D. Mattson also went to Yale Divinity School.

Mrs. Ichabod lived at Andreen, a dorm named after a full professor at Yale who left an established academic career to bring this little college out of insolvency. Andreen's daughter was friends with my mother, through the education system.

'via Blog this'

This Medieval monastery is actually an outside hallway on Zion Hill,
where Augustana Seminary was located, next to the college.
The seminary merged to form Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago,
during the time we were undergraduates.
The seminary became the science center.

PS - There is a fake Augustana College, just as there is a fake Ichabog. Success breeds envy and copy-cats. The fake Augustana is a college in Sioux Falls. If you look up Augustana in Google images, it may take you to the fake school. Do not be fooled.

Rupert Murdoch Has Discovered UOJ in the Bible: How Can WELS Resist?

Old NIV Romans ²² This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴ and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.




^{New NIV Romans 22} This righteousness is given through faith in^[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴ and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 


***


GJ - Just add an all, and WELS will pounce on it like a hobo on a hotdog.

---


AC V has left a new comment on your post "Rupert Murdoch Has Discovered UOJ in the Bible: Ho...":


Case in point:


Translation Evaluation Committee - Supplemental Report for the 2011 WELS Convention


In some passages of great theological significance, a significant improvement can genuinely assist the reader in grasping the truth of God’s Word. Similarly, a significant weakening can obscure what our God would have us know. Among the former, we might point to Romans 3:23-24, so crucial to our understanding of justification:


NIV84 Ro 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


New NIV Ro 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


The addition of the little word “all” is significant, since it clarifies Paul’s intended meaning: God has declared all guilty sinners not guilty by his gracious, saving work in Christ Jesus.


http://www.wels.net/sites/wels/files/BORAM2011_supplemental_translationevaluationcommittee.pdf


(lines 167-173)

Do not refer to Murdoch when talking about the NNIV.
WELS orders.
He owns it  - the NNIV.
Thrivent owns WELS...and Missouri.

***

GJ - Does SP Mark Schroeder agree with TEC? He is supposed to be a theologian. WELS members and pastors should do some research on the man behind these inventive translations - Nida.


Here is an interesting post I just found on the issue.

Emergent - Channeling Groeschel with Screens and a Pit Band

Ski does Groeschel, which Paul Calvin Kelm calls "creative."
The photo is better than a thousand-word post.

Ski needs some ab workouts with Joel Osteen,
who teaches the same doctrine.

---

AC V has left a new comment on your post "Emergent - Channeling Groeschel with Screens and a...":

Ski is so '80s! Those jeans went out of style long ago. If he's trying to be relevant, he's failing miserably. 

Craig Groeschel is on the right.
He encourages people to borrow his "sermons" verbatim,
but insists they give him credit.
Glende denied doing this.

***

GJ - Oh! Oh! I just discovered a new Church Growth principle. Get jeans from the Salvation Army - the ones they can't give away. Market them as Groeschel Genes (tm). If you want an empire like his, wear the same clothes, preach the exact same sermons. Download his graphics. Copy his fill-in-the-blanks bulletin copy.


If it is silly enough, stupid enough, and crooked enough, your DP will back you and stomp the opposition for you.

Why Do UOJ Zombies Continue To Fool Themselves?

Tim Glende does not find this funny,
because it is not scatological and abusive.

Nothing is quite so puzzling as Lutherans constantly at war against faith, especially justification by faith.


The LCMS is no longer a UOJ shop, but WELS and the Little Sect on the Prairie have a dictatorial grip on the topic. Very few laity are bewitched by UOJ or even know about it. The Scriptures, liturgy, and hymns do not teach a magical absolution of the world, so trying to insert that language is a trial for the language-impaired. The New NIV will fix that, which is the #1 reason for WELS promoting it.


Here are some reasons why some remain UOJ zombies. I trace it to assumptions:

1. "Walther was never wrong about anything." Many synodical fans are reduced to making all the doctrinal opinions and historical facts fit this assumption. Walther taught UOJ, so anyone questioning that new doctrine is a heretic.
2. "Faith is bad. Faith is a work of man." This one comes from the Calvinists arguing with Arminians, who did teach that faith was a virtue. At least the Calvinists saw it that way. Therefore, the UOJ Stormtroopers are working from a Calvinist perspective.
3. "Atonement and justification are the same thing." This was a popular perspective in the 19th century, due to the nature of Lutheran-Reformed union churches and Pietism degenerating into rationalism. Double-justification means that first the entire world is absolved (even back to Adam, I suppose) for Part One, and individuals have to agree with that for Part Two. Because this is so anti-Biblical and Enthusiastic, not to mention rationalistic, Part Two simply drops out. Voila - mainline Protestantism today.
4. "Holy Mother Synod is infallible." No one will admit that Romanist takeaway, but this attitude is a synodical given, even in the tawdry cesspools of the CLC (sic). Swap man-boy rape videos with other perverts - the Synod President will announce your forgiveness to the world. Question UOJ - you will be given the Left Foot of Fellowship.
   



5. "That's Uncle Fritz you are talking about." Everyone has an Uncle Fritz in the synod. Because Walther put his stamp on everything, many were trained in his errors, since Ferdinand was the man to decode the Bible, the Book of Concord, and Luther. Questioning someone's uncle is regarded as worse than shooting Bambi's mother, so few will touch the topic in the open.
6. "You are next." The Stormtroopers love to beat people up in public while calling themselves confessional Lutherans. Few want to be singled out and some assume that people with no manners and no ethics must be orthodox.

Fired Mars Hill Church Elder Breaks Silence : MATTHEW PAUL TURNER ✪ Believing.Doubting.Writing.Parenting.Laughing.Thinking.Creating.Hoping.Living.

Mark Driscoll is known as the cussing minister.

Fired Mars Hill Church Elder Breaks Silence : MATTHEW PAUL TURNER ✪ Believing.Doubting.Writing.Parenting.Laughing.Thinking.Creating.Hoping.Living.:

Tim Glende told his congregation they were going to a "pastor conference,"
but there was no WELS or ELS conference at the time
the trio went to Seattle and took this photo (minus Mark).

FIRED MARS HILL CHURCH ELDER BREAKS SILENCE

Posted by Matthew on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 · 42 Comments 

Bent Meyer was fired by Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church in 2007. He spoke up on Sunday here. Bent’s backstory is offered here.

It’s not a long comment, but what he says is quite eye-opening and telling about the intentional narrow ministry mindedness of Mark.

I hope more people like Bent will speak up. Their stories are priceless to those who are suffering Mark’s consequences now.

I’ve heard from two Seattle journalists over the last couple days. Both said that former Mars Hill members are coming out of the wordwork to share their abuse stories.

It’s sad. And it keeps getting sadder.

I am one of the men fired the day of Mark’s rant about two elders he felt needed broken noses. Someone asked what has happened since that day.
I am happy to say, the next Sunday my wife and I attended another Church with far better expository teaching and a community that authentically and generously helps the marginalized.

I also finished my master program and have a private mental health practice serving the Seattle and Eastside area. This was a very good and satisfying result.

Regarding whether I spoke up or not. I have not been silenced by any direct or implied threats of retaliation. It is clear that the one who possess the air waves controls the content and spin of a story, so there was not much to be done.

I thought a lot about how I would response and just what my motives would be. I chose not to be lured into a public argument through the Seattle Times asking me for a blow by blow description of the events I have documented. I have a tendency to keep material for years and years.

I did prepare my narrative, including supporting documents, for members only to read who came to me for explanation. They had to agree never to disclose any of it to the media. These people have been honorable. As best I know, none have. By doing this I opened up myself to their scrutiny and possible rebuke. I have received nothing but kindness and support.

As to my motives, I want Mark’s best. In my opinion he is a very troubled man. He is caught in his own hell. The consequence, of course, is the influence he has on others, which is mixed.

He, Lief Moi, and Mike Gunn, together the founders of Mars Hill Church, sent out to focus on those that were young, upwardly mobile and future leaders. They wanted to position themselves to influence their faith decisions and their life choices. This is a lesson for many church leaders to learn from and choose for themselves.

The downside is Mark’s pathology shows up in ways that are impulsive, aggressive, irascible, shut off from effective relational influence, and most apparent not respectful and submissive to anyone, though he claims otherwise.

I have hoped and still hope for something short of him destroying himself that would bring about substantial change for this ever increasing population of worshiper. Some have fretted there will be a great loss of Christians with the demise of Mark and/or the Church. I don’t think so. The church that comprises all of us will survive. The chaff will be blown away, but the church will remain.

I would speak a caution to all of us. There is much to be learn for the Mars Hill phenomena. Don’t dismiss the hunger and openness to be influenced represented in those ages 18 through 30. Invent content that is useful and distribute it freely on the web. Always incorporate creatively some explanation of the gospel at the end of every teaching session with an invitation to do business with Jesus.

Even though Mark’s portrayal of masculinity is more like a comic book superhero and women needing to be protected and rescued is his focus, young men coming into manhood is richly important. Absent fathers is epidemic. Think about what it is that has caused them not to attach to their families. Mark comes at it from the standpoint of duty and responsibility, which is mechanical, missing other primary questions. Why do so many men not attach to their families? Why do they abandon family so easily? Mark uses shame and intimidation as the means of gaining compliance, which has the appearance of working, but is not transformational in the long run, or creates other issues of abusive relationships related to power and control. In many men, the tendency is understood in the short saying, “Monkey see monkey do.” Don’t over react, young men need to mature.

I feel like I need to give attention to the needs of women with equal if not more space since women are marginalized and silenced in so many ways. But, I will leave that for another time.

I hope this will satisfy the primary curiosity of those who wonder what has happened to me. I will say, the other elder fired at the same times is a good friend and is doing well.

Thankful that Bent shared.

I found this here.

 ieatschwaemerei (http://ieatschwaemerei.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Investigating Universal Objective Justification":

This article will be interesting to you: http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/fired-mars-hill-church-elder-breaks-silence/

'via Blog this'