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Thursday, November 14, 2013

SpenerQuest Takes on Brett Meyer - SpenerQuest Loses

George Mueller (Mueller)
Senior Member
Username: Mueller

Post Number: 1071
Registered: 11-2012
Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 3:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post

Brett, to make it easier for you, here is Article Four of the Augsburg Confession. I have put into bold type what justifying faith believes. Perhaps this will help you understand.
Our churches also teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works but are freely justified for Christ’s sake through faith when they believe thatthey are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight (Rom. 3-4).
Do you see, Brett? Faith believes that he is received into favor and that his sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for his sins. This is what we Lutherans teach. Please notice how faith in the favor of God, faith in the forgiveness of sins, faith in Christ, faith in Christ’s death, and faith that Christ’s death has made satisfaction for one’s sins is the same faith. It isn’t a matter of believing in the forgiveness of sins or of believing in Christ. One doesn’t believe in one or the other or one before the other but in both at the same time.

Please respond to what I am pointing out to you from the Augsburg Confession. Is it not perfectly obvious that the object of justifying faith is the favor of God and the forgiveness of sins and that this forgiveness is a present reality that faith grasps? ". . . their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins." ARE FORGIVEN, Brett. Not will be when we believe. Is this not what the words plainly say and mean? Isn't this what we are to believe and through such faith be justified?
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Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer)
Username: Brett_meyer

Post Number: 121
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 12:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post

Mr. Peter Prange states, “Their very unbelief will be the basis of the divine judgment that comes on them, not God's lack of having forgiven them in Christ Jesus.” This is another UOJ teaching which winds up feeding on itself. What do I mean? UOJ teaches that God forgave the whole unbelieving world in Christ (Jesus Canceled their Debt) among those sins that Jesus forgave the unbelieving world was the sin of unbelief. No, it’s not the unforgiveable sin as the Lutheran Synods falsely claim. Romans 11:23, “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” So then unbelief is a sin that Christ died and paid for. And since UOJ teaches God forgave all sins in Christ then what you are effectively teaching is, “That unless unbelievers believe that God forgave them all sins, including the sin of unbelief, unbelievers will go to Hell for eternity for not believing God forgave them for not believing.” I’m correct in that statement about what UOJ is teaching. UOJ makes equally circular and contradictory statements such as the statement from Joe Krohn, “God has wrath for no man / God has wrath for unbelievers.”

Mr. Prange goes on to teach in harmony with the doctrine of UOJ, “If God has not forgiven unbelievers, upon what basis can he judge their unbelief? They would be failing to believe something that wasn't real and true because they hadn't believed it! “
Mr. Prange I believe your statement makes God’s Word subject to the limitations of your human experience and is consistent with the type of theology that has spawned the doctrine of UOJ. Scripture contends against this false dichotomy that UOJ teaches when God declares in John 16:8-9, “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;” Note that it doesn’t state, ‘because they believe not that they were forgiven already’ but it states, “because they believe not on me” on Christ. The false dichotomy is that UOJ sets up the false declaration that the whole world is forgiven all sin (their sins have been canceled, debt removed, the unbelieving world has been absolved) and UOJ argues that if that declaration isn’t true then there’s nothing to believe in – so the declaration has to be true. There is no such declaration taught in Scripture or explained in the Lutheran Confessions. UOJ’s faith clings to a false declaration – no wonder you teach an individual should not look to his faith for comfort – your faith is in a false object that never occurred and not in Christ alone. No wonder UOJists find no comfort from faith for they do not have the faith of the Holy Spirit who teaches in 2 Corinthians 13:5, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”

Mr. Mueller, we are at an impasse. You defend UOJ’s teaching that God has in fact declared the whole unbelieving world absolved, justified and righteous in Christ before faith – even if they never have faith in Christ. I believe and confess in accord with Scripture and harmony with the Lutheran Confessions that God has promised to be reconciled to, absolve, justify, declare righteous, adopt as children and save eternally all those who by the gracious gift of faith trust in Christ alone. You deny the doctrine of UOJ teaches a false object of faith by quoting the BOC here, “(men) are freely justified for Christ’s sake through faith when they believe that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ”. You teach that forgiveness must come before faith but the BOC is speaking of the result of faith in Christ alone “through faith” which is believing that they are received into favor and their sins are forgiven.

The BOC confirms my confession here (note specifically 113]):
The wrath of God cannot be appeased if we set against it our own works, because Christ has been set forth as a Propitiator, so that for His sake,the Father may become reconciled to us. But Christ is not apprehended as a Mediator except by faith. Therefore, by faith alone we obtain remission of sins, when we comfort our hearts with confidence in the mercy promised for 81] Christ's sake. Likewise Paul, Rom. 5:2, says: By whom also we have access, and adds, by faith. Thus, therefore, we are reconciled to the Father, and receive remission of sins when we are comforted with confidence in the mercy promised for Christ's sake… Paul on the contrary, teaches that we have access, i.e., reconciliation, through Christ. And to show how this occurs, he adds that we have access by faith. By faith, therefore, for Christ's sake, we receive remission of sins. We cannot set our own love and our own works over against God's wrath.

86] But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ's sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy. Accordingly, Scripture testifies that by faith we are accounted righteous, Rom. 3:26. We, therefore, will add testimonies which clearly declare that faith is that very righteousness by which we are accounted righteous before God, namely, not because it is a work that is in itself worthy, but because it receives the promise by which God has promised that for Christ's sake He wishes to be propitious to those believing in Him, or because He knows that Christ of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption, 1 Cor. 1:30.

113] But faith, properly so called, is that which assents to the promise[is when my heart, and the Holy Ghost in the heart, says: The promiseof God is true and certain]. Of 114] this faith Scripture speaks. And because it receives the remission of sins, and reconciles us to God, by this faith we are [like Abraham] accounted righteous for Christ's sake before we love and do the works of the Law, although love necessarily follows. 115]Nor, indeed, is this faith an idle knowledge, neither can it coexist with mortal sin, but it is a work of the Holy Ghost, whereby we are freed from death, and terrified minds are encouraged and quickened. 116] on.php

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
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George Mueller (Mueller)
Senior Member
Username: Mueller

Post Number: 1072
Registered: 11-2012
Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 7:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post

Brett, it is perfectly clear that you are either unable or unwilling to engage actual arguments. I have shown you from the clear words of the Augsburg Confession that justifying faith trusts in a present reality that ones sins are forgiven. That's what the words says. You refuse to engage me on the words before us and insist on running away from the words to other words that you imagine disagree with the words to which I would bind you.

You do the same with the Scriptures. You argue like a Jehovah's Witness. Whenever you try to show them how the Bible really does teach the deity of Christ, they run to another passage that they think is incompatible with it. The deniers of objective justification have a cult-like way of thinking. Dancing and bobbing around the Scriptures and the Confessions, never willing to stand still and engage on the actual meaning of the text.
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Peter M. Prange (Peterprange)
New member
Username: Peterprange

Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2011
Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 7:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post

Mr. Meyer:

Would you be so kind as to answer the following question?

True or false: God only bestows forgiveness in baptism on those who believe.