Saturday, August 24, 2013

After All, Mega-Churching Is a Business.



Mega-church downsizes, cuts non-essential members - LarkNews.com - A Good Source for Christian News:


WINSTON-SALEM — Julie and Bob Clark were stunned to receive a letter from their church in July asking them to “participate in the life of the church” — or worship elsewhere.

“They basically called us freeloaders,” says Julie.

“We were freeloaders,” says Bob.

In a trend that may signal rough times for wallflower Christians, bellwether mega-church Faith Community of Winston-Salem has asked “non-participating members” to stop attending.

“No more Mr. Nice Church,” says the executive pastor, newly hired from Cingular Wireless. “Bigger is not always better. Providing free services indefinitely to complacent Christians is not our mission.”

“Freeloading” Christians were straining the church’s nursery and facility resources and harming the church’s ability to reach the lost, says the pastor.

“When your bottom line is saving souls, you get impatient with people who interfere with that goal,” he says.
Faith Community sent polite but firm letters to families who attend church services and “freebie events” but never volunteer, never tithe and do not belong to a small group or other ministry. The church estimates that of its 8,000 regular attendees, only half have volunteered in the past 3 years, and a third have never given to the church.

“Before now, we made people feel comfortable and welcome, and tried to coax them to give a little something in return,” says a staff member. “That’s changed. We’re done being the community nanny.”

Surprisingly, the move to dis-invite people has drawn positive response from men in the community who like the idea of an in-your-face church.

“I thought, ‘A church that doesn’t allow wussies — that rocks,’” says Bob Clark, who admires the church more since they told him to get lost.

He and Julie are now tithing and volunteering. “We’ve taken our place in church life,” he says. •

'via Blog this'


Essential Links to The CORE Scandal,
Plus Plagiarism at St. Peter (WELS) in Freedom

 The latest post on the Ski-Glende court case can be found here.


Note to Mequon graduates - you only need to left-click on the titles to find the post. That is called an embedded link. They teach embedded links in Web 101.

Write a letter about Ski getting back into the ministry, as Engelbrecht and Schroeder promised.

Team Glende's epic humiliation - all lawsuits dropped on Friday the 13th.

Friday the 13th - Three St. Peter Freedom pillars still suing.

Three from St. Peter are still suing, including Sexpert Ski.

Tim Glende's Lawsuit against His Own Member - Thrown Out of Court. Denied.

Hitler just found out.

Glende's First Congregation Will Close Soon.

More Hoo-Hah from Fox Valley WELS.

Four from St. Peter in Freedom are suing the husband of Ski's victim, hauling him to court to silence him.

Ski will return to The CORE as the pastor, as DP Engelbrecht promised and SP Schroeder agreed.

Ski's Scrotum Sermon - Which They Were Proud To Post.

All St. Peter Freedom (which includes The CORE) posts labeled on Ichabod.

DP Engelbrecht's email supports Ski's CRM status, implying a return to The CORE.

August 13th meeting - this was held to get Ski's CRM status going.

Budget for St. Peter is $1.4 million, so why did they get a $500,000 plus grant to buy a bar?

Remove the 12 WELS Apostates - Starting with Deputy Doug Engelbrecht

DP Engelbrecht Approved Plagiarism of False Doctrine

All posts labeled The CORE

Ski - so bad, he was canned twice. This is the second, official canning, April of 2013.

Bishop Katie cannot spell either, not even on her own web page.

DP Engelbrecht had two different stories about Ski leaving.

Church and Change.

All posts labeled Church and Change.

All posts labeled Tim Glende.

All posts labeled Fox Valley WELS.

Intrepids on Time of Grace.

Glende, Ski, and Engelbrecht kicked out Rick Techlin - for being correct about plagiarism of  false doctrine, and Glende lied about his plagiarism.

Meeting with the DP's sock puppets.

"This will solve our PR problems."

Ski turned down for CRM Status.

Photos of all the main players can be found here.

Martin Luther College (WELS) Album

"No matter how they teach it, UOJ makes no sense.
That's OK, I am going to borrow $80,000 to learn Day Care Management."

Nass explains, "And that is how we avoided a NO! vote on the NNIV.
We are so crafty."

Jeff Schone has not replaced the burnt out light
in his closet.

Zarling told the parents, "If you are connected to
Church and Change, your kid can get away with anything.
Otherwise, forget it."
"We have a great idea for a video."
Zarling, thinking hard, "Yes, I think there is a Book of Concord on campus somewhere.
Try the library, but remember - the Book of Concord is boring and irrelevant."

WELS Plan - To Return Ski to The CORE. Promoted by DP Engelbrecht, Approved by SP Schroeder


Although Ski had to post a bond to guarantee he would appear in court in Milwaukee, and was not wanted at Jeske's St. Marcus, he was kicked upstairs to Appleton.

WELS allowed Ski to pretend he had his own mission with The CORE, when he was just another staff member at St. Peter in Freedom, Wisconsin, part of the degenerate Fox Valley WELS circuit, where plagiarizing false teachers is not only the norm, but defended by DP Engelbrecht (aka Deputy Doug).

First Ski supposedly quit in December, then again officially in April. I have never known of a Synod President getting directly involved in a congregation, but Schroeder did that to cut a deal with Fox Valley. Engelbrecht wanted Ski back at The CORE, which is what he promised St. Peter in Freedom.

According to Deputy Doug, not the most honest person in the world, Schroeder agreed to this.

Doug has always gone out of his way to protect and promote Glende and Ski, the second being the Fox Valley Lutheran High School sex expert. Doubtless parents are rejoicing that a man kicked out of the ministry for sexual harassment and drinking on the job was their children's spiritual guide at the parochial high school.

Whoopy worship leads to whoopy education.

Now Ski is the Prodigal Son, according to DP Doug, repentant and purified by several months of paid vacation. Church and Changers coached him in how to be a good pastor:

  • Like Kelm?
  • Like Jeske?
  • Like Larry Olson?
  • Like William Tabor?
  • Like Jeff Gunn?

The Morning Light Is Breaking, The Darkness Disappears.
The Lutheran Hymnal, #497


Father of molested student talks about his outrage toward seven teachers who supported the rapist - EAGnews.org powered by Education Action Group Foundation, Inc.

New ELCA bishop -
he was a professor of Confessional Lutheranism.


Father of molested student talks about his outrage toward seven teachers who supported the rapist



By Victor Skinner
EAGnews.org
ROSE CITY, Mich. – August 19 is the crucial day.

JanczewskiAt 7 p.m. in the Ogemaw Heights High School auditorium, the Rose City community will learn the fate of seven West Branch-Rose City teachers who recently wrote letters in support of a colleague convicted of molesting a young student.
John and Lori Janczewski, the victim’s parents, want the teachers fired. They also want school board member Michael Eagan – who sat with the family of convicted child molester Neal Erickson during his sentencing – recalled from office.
“We had been quiet … and sat back and said nothing,” John Janczewski said of the investigation and arrest of their son’s teacher in an interview with EAGnews. “But when (the letters of support from teachers) came out in court we were angry and sick to our stomachs.
“We can’t believe (educators) who took an oath to protect and be there for the child would turn a blind eye,” he said. “We promised ourselves we’re not going to stop until the (teachers who supported Erickson) are fired and this board member is recalled.”
On July 29, the WB-RC school board held a special meeting at the Ogemaw Heights High School auditorium where a steady stream of concerned parents and local residents made their way to the podium and urged school officials to terminate the seven teachers who supported Erickson.
School leaders are attempting to determine if the terminations would violate the teachers’ constitutional right to free speech, which could trigger lawsuits that would undoubtedly cost far more than the district can afford.
Meanwhile, hundreds of parents who are rallying behind the Janczewskis are threatening to pull their children from the district if the school board doesn’t act, a serious concern because of the potential loss of per-pupil state funding.
“It’s a huge decision, whichever road we go down,” WB-RC board president Jack Money said at the meeting. “Don’t underestimate how huge it is.”
The discovery
The Janczewskis have been through a lot over the past year.
In October 2012, Lori Janczewski was diagnosed with cancer. Days later they received more heartbreaking news.
“Four days after my wife was diagnosed, a state trooper came out to our house and we found out our son was molested,” said  Janczewski, who is also fighting his own battle with Multiple Sclerosis. “Somebody sent an anonymous email with pictures of my son to the board of education and the superintendent.”
The email and pictures proved Erickson “was a predator and he groomed our son to molest him,” he said.
Someone also posted the pictures online.
“They never found out who sent the emails and brought it to the surface,” Janczewski said. “On the one hand, we’re very appreciative … but on the other hand, we’re angry. Why didn’t they come forward sooner? Why did they put the pictures on a porn site?”
Yet despite the horrible news, the family finally had an explanation for their son’s troublesome behavior.
Their son had grown increasingly distant from the once close-knit family through his early teens, as Erickson, his middle school math teacher, manipulated the young boy into a twisted relationship that lasted from Aug. 2006 to Aug. 2009. The victim frequently lashed out at his father and the tension tore their family apart.
Lori Janczewski worked with Erickson at Rose City Middle School and had asked him for insight into the boy’s rage, but he shrugged her off. The discovery that Erickson had molested their son brought a new sense of clarity after years of turmoil and anguish, John said.
“He carried this inside him all these years,” Janczewski said of his son’s suffering. “It not only impacted us recently, it has impacted us for about nine years now.
“Our son shut me out of his life. There were heated battles between us. It just got worse and worse and worse. It was total hell. It caused physical and mental stress on our whole family,” John said. “I chalked it up to puberty, but it was horrible. We couldn’t put our finger on what was wrong, but now we know.”
“Now we understand why he was so angry and emotional,” Janczewski said.
Despite the disturbing revelations, the Janczewskis were content to let the legal process take its course. They kept a low profile and followed Erickson’s criminal case closely. Erickson admitted to his misdeeds, and the couple attended his sentencing July 10.
Teachers take sides
That’s when they learned for the first time that numerous teachers in the school district wrote to the court to plead for a lenient sentence for their colleague. They were shocked to see several teachers – and school board member Mike Eagan – sitting across the courtroom with the sex offender’s family.
“Neal made a mistake,” teacher Sally Campbell wrote to the judge, according to the Ogemaw County Herald. “He allowed a mutual friendship to develop into much more. He realized his mistake and ended it years before someone anonymously sent something in to the authorities which began this legal process.”
“I am asking that Neal be given the absolute minimum sentence, considering all the circumstances surrounding this case,” wrote Amy Huber Eagan, a teacher and wife of board member Mike Eagan. “I am also hoping that he can stay remanded to the custody of the Ogemaw County Jail and not be sent to a prison facility.”
“Neal has pled (sic) guilty for his one criminal offense but he is not a predator,” teacher Harriett Coe wrote, according to the Herald. “This was an isolated incident. He understands the severity of his action and is sincere in his desire to make amends. He has been candid and conveyed his action to his family, friends and co-workers.”
In all, 10 people, including seven WB-RC teachers, submitted letters of support for Erickson, most pleading for a reduced sentence. They included Campbell, Amy Eagan, Coe, Toni Erickson, Carol Rau, Marilyn Glover, Sandi Lee, Kathryn Weber, Kathleen Sheel and Kathleen Palmer, the Herald reports.
Judge Michael Bumgartner told Erickson he was “appalled and ashamed that the community could rally around, in this case, you,” according to the Herald.
“What you did was a jab in the eye with a sharp stick to every parent who trusts a teacher,” he said shortly before sentencing Erickson to 15-30 years in prison.
The Janczewskis felt betrayed, hurt, and angry.
Now they have made it their mission to ensure those who supported Erickson no longer work with the community’s children. They have vowed to recall Eagan from the school board if he didn’t willingly step down.
“They are all sick in the head,” Janczewski said of Erickson’s supporters. “They can do their freedom of speech, but their actions” have consequences, he said.
Until Erickson’s sentencing, the family members were “very private people,” Janczewski said. But the teacher support letters convinced them the problem was much larger than Erickson.
They shed their anonymity to demand the teachers and Eagan are held accountable, and the vast majority of the community rallied around them in support.
But obviously someone does not support the Janczewskis.
Days after the sentencing, the family awoke to a fire in their garage that nearly spread to their house. Someone had also scrawled the letters “ITY-YWP” on the side of their home, presumably a crude acronym for “I told you, you will pay.”
State police have offered a $5,000 reward for information leading to an arrest, and have several leads, Janczewski said, but haven’t definitively linked the crime to the Erickson case.
“I just can’t wait till they catch the person,” Janczewski said. “They could have killed my family.”
Some of the teachers who supported Erickson have heckled Lori Janczewski at work, according to her husband. The couple reported two teachers to the police, but the abuse has already taken its toll on her physical and mental health, Janczewski said.
“My wife is going to have a breakdown … she’s so close,” he said. “The school has just torn her apart.”
Moving forward
The local community has rushed to the Janczewskis’ side. Media coverage of the unbelievable situation has also spread, and families in other states are joining their cause, as well.
The Facebook group “Support the Janczewski Family” has swelled to more than 2,100 members in recent weeks. At the special July 29 school board meeting about 300 local residents flooded the school auditorium and spoke out against the offending teachers’ behavior. They urged Eagan to resign, but he refused.
“They want justice. They feel like things have been swept under the rug,” Janczewski said. “The community has had enough, we’re up in arms.”
Janczewski said he hopes to carry the public anger over to the 2014 election, and has submitted recall petition language to remove Eagan from office. The first draft was rejected by election officials, but with the help of an attorney Janczewski said he expects to have an approved petition by the end of the week, and foresees no problem collecting the necessary signatures to get the proposal on the ballot.
“We need 2,058 signatures and that is not a problem at all,” he said. “I have support from every possible angle you can imagine, all types of local businesses, people are rallying behind us.
“They just can’t wait to sign this recall.”
He said the community’s support has been far stronger than he imagined.
“We’re no longer private individuals, we’ve become part of the community and it feels great,”  Janczewski said. “They’ve helped us up when we’re down.
“We’re both physically and mentally done,” he said of his wife and himself. “But we have the power to press forward because of the support of the community.”
Ultimately, Janczewski said, the family wants the seven teachers who publicly supported Erickson terminated immediately, Eagan to step down or be recalled from office, and action by the school district to help prevent other students from suffering abuse.
The family hopes to pressure school officials to enact bi-yearly teacher training sessions on child abuse, “so students can trust their teachers again,” Janczewski said.
“We have a lot of goals … and my wife and I promised ourselves we would not stop until they are in place,” he said. “We don’t care how much more there is (to go through), we won’t stop until we know the children are safe.”
While the community works to rebuild trust with the district, the Janczewskis have been rebuilding, as well.
Their son has moved to another state as part of an internship and is working to regain a sense of normalcy in the wake of the devastating experience. He supports his family’s efforts, but prefers to keep his distance from the publicity, Janczewski said.
“He seems to be happier, a lot more open. He’s not angry 100 percent of the time,” Janczewski said. “He’s OK with what we’re doing, but he just doesn’t want his name out there.
“My son and I have opened up a new chapter of a new book. I’ve talked to him more in the last two months than I have in the past nine years,” Janczewski said. “I lost over eight years, the best years of his life I lost, because of … that sick monster.”

'via Blog this'

---

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2013/08/14/justice-for-the-
janczewskis-their-son-repeatedly-raped-for-years-by-middle-school-
teacher-neal-erickson-who-was-president-of-the-michigan-teachers-
union-and-even-now-supported-by-the-teachers/

CLICK GOOGLE REVIEWS on the link below!

http://www.google.com/#fp=f7dfdd9cf6251b64&q=Prince+of+Peace+Luthera
n+Church%2C+Ogemaw+County%2C+MI&lrd=lrd

In an interview with radio talk host, Glenn Beck, A "Father 
Stonebeck" was implicated!

GLENN: What church is that?

JOHN: Prince of Peace Church, Father Stonebeck. It’s just 
unbelievable.

http://www.glennbeck.com/2013/08/19/teachers-in-mi-stand-behind-a-
colleague-convicted-of-rape-glenn-speaks-to-the-victim%E2%80%99s-
father/

Manta has a Stoneback listed as pastor....

http://www.manta.com/c/mmydrnr/prince-of-peace-lutheran-chr

---

Prince of Peace Lutheran Church

 
The Prince of Peace Lutheran church is located in Rose City, MI and is part of the Evangelical Lutheran in America denomination of churches. If you are a member of the Prince of Peace Lutheran church we encourage you to write a review and post upcoming church events.
 

Contact Information

J Daniel Stoneback
(517) 685-2050
(517) 685-2050
princeofpeace@m33access.com
 

Location

165 E Sage Lake Rd  Rose City, MI 48654

Intrepids Answer Legalism Question

Martin Luther College parents and the faculty
are drinking at the New Ulm Country Club, while

the kids are speed-dating on the campus.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151659493446723&set=a.379496591722.170643.10141541722&type=1&theater

FRIDAY, AUGUST 23, 2013


Flat or Folded?


Thoughts from Thunder Mountain
["Huachuca" - A Chiricahua Apache word meaning "thunder."]

Flat or Folded?   

When I was home last week, I was happy to be able to eat at my favorite Mexican restaurant one more time before they closed their doors for good, after 53 years. While I was sitting there waiting for my meal in the same room I had sat when I was 8 years old, I was contemplating an interesting change in the nomenclature of Mexican food, at least here in Yuma, AZ, over those years. What we used to call a "flat taco," was now being labeled a "folded taco." I wondered why the change. Was folded more accurate than flat? Did it sell more tacos? Was the change mandated by some politically correct food critic? Or was it just change for change sake? Turns out it was because of the tourists. You see in Phoenix and California and other places, this item was always referred to as folded, so our little corner of the world had to change so we'd be on the same page so to speak. But really, it all depends on one's viewpoint. If you're talking about what is done with the tortilla, yes, it is folded in order to hold the filling. But if you're comparing it to the round, rolled variety, then it is indeed flatter. You say tom-A-to, and I say tom-AH-to, eh?! 

So, as I enjoyed my tacos and green enchiladas, it occurred to me that this is much like the argument over liturgy in the confessional Lutheran church. Is liturgy "adiaphora" or not?

Well, yes and no. If you mean is the liturgy necessary for salvation; that is, you can't get to heaven unless you sing or chant the Gloria Patri, Gloria in Excelsis, Sanctus, etc.... then yes, liturgy is a matter neither forbidden nor commanded by God. It must be adiaphora since salvation is not dependent upon it. So, believers who want to worship in what might be termed a "freestyle" manner, can most certainly do so. And while doing so may involve some bad theology or even false teaching, as it very often does, their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior can and will still save them. However they may abuse their Christian freedom, they are, in the end, still Christians. We should never proclaim them anything else.

But, if you want to claim to be a truly confessional Lutheran church, in the sense of a proper historic, orthodox, and evangelical church in a direct line of succession with Dr. Martin Luther, and the Reformers around him and Confessors and Formulators who followed, then the liturgy, again, as in what we know as the Western Rite, is most certainly not adiaphora. Therefore, believers in Christ, who claim to adhere to the Bible as their only rule and norm for faith and life, AND also claim to follow the Lutheran Confessions contained in the 1580 Book of Concord, as their guide in things ecclesiastical, will make regular, good, and proper use of the Lutheran Liturgy whenever they gather for worship. This puts into visible practice the faith we have by God's grace, and the understanding of God's will for worship that we glean from our Confessions. This is not a matter of law, or something we have to do, but a matter of our true confession, and something that by faith we want to do, and will do, whether it is a rule in our churches or not. In fact, it is something we will allow no one to take from us - not now, not ever!  

This is also a matter of simple honesty. If you call yourself a "confessional" Lutheran church, then you should have and use the liturgy in your worship, and it should be easily comparable to the basics of the Western Rite. If you don't want to use the liturgy, or you want to make up your own, and change it so much that it barely even resembles anything the Reformers would even recognize, then you should not call yourself a confessional church. Let the shoe fit where it may. Of course, whether you should even call yourself Lutheran is another matter for another time.

But the point is one of truth in advertising. The Apology says it best, "At the outset we must again make the preliminary statement that we do not abolish the Mass, but religiously maintain and defend it. For among us masses are celebrated every Lord's Day and on the other festivals, in which the Sacrament is offered to those who wish to use it, after they have been examined and absolved. And the usual public ceremonies are observed, the series of lessons, of prayers, vestments, and other like things." (Article XXIV: Of the Mass) Certainly the Mass includes the liturgy, as does the term "other like things." This is what WE do. Others may do as they will. And if they will, let them do so somewhere else! We will still call them Christian believers, but, let's be honest, they are simply not confessional Lutherans. And that's the name of that tune!

Deo Vindice!

10 COMMENTS:

Rev. Paul A. Rydecki said...
I recall reading aloud that section from Apology XXIV at an Arizona-California District pastors' conference back in May, 2012, and then I asked, "How many of these things does Crosswalk in Phoenix observe?" The answer was, "None." Then Dave Clark called me a legalist for asking such a question. One month later, Crosswalk was welcomed into the WELS with open arms at the district convention.

Ironically, the WELS still claims to be a confessional Lutheran church body. Go figure.
Pastor Spencer said...
It seems to me that a "legalist" demands that certain and various outward actions and accouterments be observed in order to be saved, or to have sins forgiven, such as works of penance or baptism by immersion, etc.... Again, and for the record, I for one have never ever said that congregations or Pastors that don't follow Augustana XXIV are not Christian believers and thus not saved; not at all. I recognize that the Word of God is proclaimed in such churches, albeit sometimes somewhat muted or mangled, and that therefore there are believers there and part of the Holy Christian Church. The same is true of Billy Graham and the Southern Baptists, but they are not confessional Lutherans. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but again, let me repeat, this is about honesty and integrity and accuracy in labeling, and NOT about who is a Christian or not.

Now, if certain Lutherans want to re-define Lutheranism and remove Augustana XXIV from the Lutheran Confessions, or remove the Confessions from the unalterable sections of our synod and church constitutions, or change our confessional subscription from a "quia" to "quatenus" one, then fine, let's have that discussion and debate - may the better argument win. All I'm saying is that if a pastor or church doesn't want to be confessional Lutheran, that's ok, but then they should form their own group, and frankly shouldn't really even call themselves Lutheran at all.

To me, being Lutheran is more than just a word or a label. It is a way of life, and yes, a way of worship; a way of devotion, a way of doctrine, a way of religious practice; it defines who I am theologically and ecclesiastically, and it guides me in how I receive God's gifts, and in my life of service to God. Those who don't want to worship as I do - go in peace, no hard feelings; but go. Either that or we need to change what it means to be Lutheran. Then it will be confessional Lutherans who will have to go.

Time to call a spade a spade, boys and girls - and a Lutheran a Lutheran . . . or not, as the case may be.

My opinion. 
Anonymous said...
Thank you for the definition of a "legalist". In my experience most people don't have the faintest idea of what a "legalist" is. To them a "legalist" is someone who doesn't tell them what they want to hear.
Scott E. Jungen
Pastor Spencer said...

Good point, Scott.

However, it seems that in our circles, someone who champions for a certain worship activity is often labeled a legalist. Well, OK, using this much more broad but inaccurate definition; Perhaps our readers can tell us which is the real legalist in the example below?

a.) The Pastor who has taught his congregation to offer the Lord's Supper on every Lord's Day, so that those who wish to commune with their Savior can do so, while others present are not forced to do so if they choose not to, or

b.) The Pastor who refuses to instruct his congregation or even bring up the subject, so that they only offer the Lord's Supper once or twice a month, so that those who wish to partake of Holy Communion are forced to refrain on those Sundays when it is not offered?

Hmmmmmm . . . . I think it would be 'b.' wouldn't it? Seems so to this observer. In 'a.' everyone has a choice - to commune or not, as they see fit. In 'b.' those who would like to commune during the worship service are given no choice, but are basically told they can't partake of the Lord's Supper during that day's service.

So, who's forcing whom to do what, eh?

But y'all feel free to chime in and vote.
Joel said...
I take it quite seriously when the Formula of Concord says this:

30] 5. We reject and condemn also [the madness] when these adiaphora are abrogated in such a manner as though it were not free to the congregation [church] of God at any time and place to employ one or more in Christian liberty, according to its circumstances, as may be most useful to the Church.

31] Thus [According to this doctrine] the churches will not condemn one another because of dissimilarity of ceremonies when, in Christian liberty, one has less or more of them, provided they are otherwise agreed with one another in the doctrine and all its articles, also in the right use of the holy Sacraments, according to the well-known saying: Dissonantia ieiunii non dissolvit consonantiam fidei; "Disagreement in fasting does not destroy agreement in the faith."

--Joel Lillo
Bryan Lidtke said...
Joel,

The Epitome of the Formula of Concord says this:
5] 3. Nevertheless, that herein all frivolity and offense should be avoided, and special care should be taken to exercise forbearance towards the weak in faith. 1 Cor. 8:9Rom. 14:13.

6] 4. We believe, teach, and confess that in time of persecution, when a plain [and steadfast] confession is required of us, we should not yield to the enemies in regard to such adiaphora, as the apostle has written Gal. 5:1: Stand fast, therefore, in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again in the yoke of bondage. Also 2 Cor. 6:14: Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, etc. For what concord hath light with darkness? Also Gal. 2:5: To whom we gave place, no, not for an hour, that the truth of the Gospel might remain with you. For in such a case it is no longer a question concerning adiaphora, but concerning the truth of the Gospel, concerning [preserving] Christian liberty, and concerning sanctioning open idolatry, as also concerning the prevention of offense to the weak in the faith [how care should be taken lest idolatry be openly sanctioned and the weak in faith be offended]; in which we have nothing to concede, but should plainly confess and suffer on that account what God sends, and what He allows the enemies of His Word to inflict upon us.
Pastor Spencer said...
Thanks, Bryan.

Once again, just as the Holy Scriptures can be quoted to prove just about anything, so also the Confessions. Po-tA-to, Po-tAH-to. Take the entire Book of Concord in context and see what you find.

Some just refuse to get the point. Nowhere to I CONDEMN anyone for anything! I simply say that it is incorrect and misleading to say one is a "Lutheran" when one worships like a Baptist (and I ought to know, since I was a Baptist at one time - and most of my extended family still is, thus I know of what I speak.), or like a community church, or non-denominational church, or whatever.

Again, not condemning anyone here - just looking for truth in advertising, eh!

People need to quit changing the bloomin' subject and stick to the point.

Also, how about my question: who's more legalistic, the one who permits folks to commune or not as their conscience directs, or the one who removes this choice two or three Sundays a month? Come on, folks, take a chance and answer! 
Joel said...
So, can you be a Lutheran if you worship like a Roman Catholic Father?
Bryan Lidtke said...
It goes both ways, Joel. Can you be a Lutheran if you worship like a Methobapticostal Televagngelist?
Bryan Lidtke said...
*Televangelist


Daniel Baker said...
Abrogating the Divine Liturgy may not be a sin ipso facto, but hypocrisy and lying surely are. One should not claim to be Lutheran - much less subscribe to the Lutheran Confessions by virtue of one's ordination vows and/or constitutional charters - and turn around and live otherwise. It is a lie. And if you're a liar, you're going to have a bad time (cf. the Apocalypse, 21:8).
Daniel Baker said...
By the way, the old "worshiping like a Roman Catholic" argument is growing stale, Joel. Do try another. (Besides, you may not have noticed, but the average "Roman Catholic" parish looks a heck of a lot more like a CoWo Protestant congregation than anything historically Catholic.)
Pastor Spencer said...
Yep, we sure do worship like a catholic - absolutely - an historic, apostolic, orthodox, world-wide (small 'c') catholic. Just like a certain Father Martin of blessed memory. And at Trinity Orthodox Lutheran Church what you see in the name on the sign is what you get in worship on Sunday - every Sunday!

Now - answer the everlovin' question or stop talking!
Joel said...
I knew everyone would miss my point on this. EVERY form of worship can have a negative conotation for someone. When I first arrived in this area, I was about to conduct my first chapel for the Lutheran Elementary School at a sister congregation that my congregation supported. I was told that the order of service was the Morning Praise service from Christian Worship. I'd been singing the pastor's parts from that service for a couple of years at that point and planned on singing them in this service. I mentioned this to the organist for the service in the hallway of the school as the pastor of that congregation was coming toward us. As he got up to us, the organist said to him, "Guess what, Pastor Lillo is going to sing his parts of the service this Friday." This very old school WELS pastor said, "NO HE'S NOT! There are a number of members of this congregtion who came out of the Cathlolic Church and they would associate the chanting with the errors of the Catholic Church. Oh, and don't even think of wearing anything but a black robe, either!"

Now, 17 years later, they do have the pastor chant in that congregation and it hasn't caused a mass exodus. They also are beginning to use contemporary music in their service as well and it isn't causing offense either. (By the way, I'm not talking about St. Peter's in Appleton. I think I have to mention that in case Greggy Jackson is listening in.) My point is that this congregation has accepted both kinds of worship in their services. Why? Because the doctrine hasn't changed.

I don't think that traditional liturgical worhip is Roman Catholic. I don't think that contemporary worship is "Methobapticostal." I think that both forms of worship can be Lutheran if the DOCTRINE is Lutheran.

Personally, I don't think that most people think of contemporary worship as belonging to any one particular denomination or theology. I think most people think of it as the way a lot of Americans worship.

Oh, and as far as my congregation is concerned... We use the liturgies from CW and CWS. I still chant. We haven't had a praise band and probably never will. And I use the NIV 2011 for the worship service. Make of that what you like.
AP said...
This idea of worshiping like Roman Catholics is a scarecrow argument. Worshiping like a Roman Catholic would entail a priest, standing in the place of Christ, performing a miraculous and meritorious sacrifice in the Eucharist. No Lutheran pastor does such a thing, because we know that salvation does not come from the works of man but from the work of Christ. Our worship properly places emphasis on the things--the only things--God uses to bring his salvation to us, which are the Word and Sacrament. We treat them with the reverence and respect they are due.

Sectarian worship places emphasis on the works of man and the flashy personality of the preacher. The praise band is set up where the altar should be, placing the works of man literally in front of the means God works through.

So really, who is worshiping in a Roman way here, meaning a way the places emphasis in the works of man rather than the works of God? And yes, I know, we are merely "spoiling the Egyptians" when we borrow "cool" worship formats from the sects. Well, I seem to remember the Children of Israel, having spoiled the actual Egyptians and wanting to be more like them, worshiping a golden calf in the middle of the desert, thus invoking God's wrath.

You can keep your Egyptian spoils, your flashy preachers, and your cool praise bands. I'm reminded of something Oliver Cromwell said once: "I had rather have a plain, russet-coated Captain, that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a Gentle-man and is nothing else." Put another way, I'd rather have the plainest church, the most boring sermon, and the least-flashy pastor in the world just so long as in that church the Word and Sacrament are rightly taught and administered and not watered down or pushed literally to the side by the drum-kit and guitar amp.

A.P.
Joel said...
I knew everyone would miss my point on this. EVERY form of worship can have a negative conotation for someone. When I first arrived in this area, I was about to conduct my first chapel for the Lutheran Elementary School at a sister congregation that my congregation supported. I was told that the order of service was the Morning Praise service from Christian Worship. I'd been singing the pastor's parts from that service for a couple of years at that point and planned on singing them in this service. I mentioned this to the organist for the service in the hallway of the school as the pastor of that congregation was coming toward us. As he got up to us, the organist said to him, "Guess what, Pastor Lillo is going to sing his parts of the service this Friday." This very old school WELS pastor said, "NO HE'S NOT! There are a number of members of this congregtion who came out of the Catholic Church and they would associate the chanting with the errors of the Catholic Church. Oh, and don't even think of wearing anything but a black robe, either!"

Now, 17 years later, they do have the pastor chant in that congregation and it hasn't caused a mass exodus. They also are beginning to use contemporary music in their service as well and it isn't causing offense either. (By the way, I'm not talking about St. Peter's in Appleton. I think I have to mention that.) My point is that this congregation has accepted both kinds of worship in their services. Why? Because the doctrine hasn't changed.

I don't think that traditional liturgical worhip is Roman Catholic. I don't think that contemporary worship is "Methobapticostal." I think that both forms of worship can be Lutheran if the DOCTRINE is Lutheran.

Personally, I don't think that most people think of contemporary worship as belonging to any one particular denomination or theology. I think most people think of it as the way a lot of Americans worship.

Oh, and as far as my congregation is concerned... We use the liturgies from CW and CWS. I still chant. We haven't had a praise band and probably never will. And I use the NIV 2011 for the worship service. Make of that what you like.

--Joel Lillo (a father, but not a Father)
Joel said...
I knew everyone would miss my point on this. EVERY form of worship can have a negative connotation for someone. When I first arrived in this area, I was about to conduct my first chapel for the Lutheran Elementary School at a sister congregation that my congregation supported. I was told that the order of service was the Morning Praise service from Christian Worship. I'd been singing the pastor's parts from that service for a couple of years at that point and planned on singing them in this service. I mentioned this to the organist for the service in the hallway of the school as the pastor of that congregation was coming toward us. As he got up to us, the organist said to him, "Guess what, Pastor Lillo is going to sing his parts of the service this Friday." This very old school WELS pastor said, "NO HE'S NOT! There are a number of members of this congregation who came out of the Catholic Church and they would associate the chanting with the errors of the Catholic Church. Oh, and don't even think of wearing anything but a black robe, either!"

Now, 17 years later, they do have the pastor chant in that congregation and it hasn't caused a mass exodus. They also are beginning to use contemporary music in their service as well and it isn't causing offense either. (By the way, I'm not talking about St. Peter's in Appleton. I think I have to mention that.) My point is that this congregation has accepted both kinds of worship in their services. Why? Because the doctrine hasn't changed.

I don't think that traditional liturgical worhip is Roman Catholic. I don't think that contemporary worship is "Methobapticostal." I think that both forms of worship can be Lutheran if the DOCTRINE is Lutheran.

Personally, I don't think that most people think of contemporary worship as belonging to any one particular denomination or theology. I think most people think of it as the way a lot of Americans worship.

Oh, and as far as my congregation is concerned... We use the liturgies from CW and CWS. I still chant. We haven't had a praise band and probably never will. And I use the NIV 2011 for the worship service. Make of that what you like.

--Joel Lillo