SpenerQuest Adds UOC to the Vocabulary of the Hive. Jester Swoons

Read slowly, SpenerQuesters.
React - not with your usual venom and unbelief -
but with your ministerial reason.

George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1070 Registered: 11-2012	Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 8:38 am:       Brett, you mocked my answer to your question about binding sins. Your mockery consisted in a rationalistic rejection of the gospel. Yet you accuse the orthodox of rationalism! You are the rationalist. You ask how all sins can be forgiven when Jesus paid for them if the sins of the impenitent are retained. That's a rationalistic argument. Your arguments against objective justification are not based on Scripture. They are based on your erring (and confused) human reason. Read article four of the Augsburg Confession. Here we Lutherans teach what justification by faith means. Read it carefully and see if you can find what the object of justifying faith is. In other words, what does the faith that justifies believe? "When they believe that . . ." Check it out and see for yourself what a Lutheran confesses. Justifying faith believes . . . what? Now this is a simple exercise, Brett. You claim to be a Lutheran and you claim to accept the Lutheran Confessions. So tell us, how does the text of the Augsburg Confession read? "When they believe that . . ." What? What is it that one believes when he is justified through faith?
Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 373 Registered: 1-2002	Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 8:43 am:       Brett, you are the only one of the people who are contending with us on this topic who is willing to take a serious look at the evidence. However, you need to see that the reason that we are contending for the "Synodical Conference" doctrine is that we believe that Scripture teaches that doctrine. It is not a matter of us rationalizing it. Rydecki and now ELDoNA have restricted their view of Scripture to what they perceive the 16th and 17th century Lutheran theologians to have interpreted Scripture to say. These classic Lutheran theologians have pointed out that Romans 5:18 (Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life) points out that condemnation is decreed by God over all people because of Adam's sin. Now, as you know not all people are going to hell, so even though the verdict of condemnation is pronounced in God's Law over all people that does not mean that all people have gone to hell. In the same way as the condemnation is universal so also is the verdict of acquittal in the Gospel: all people are encompassed in that verdict of God but not all have been regenerated to receive that verdict. That is the doctrine of the Gospel, the doctrine of Universal Objective Justification. You have Universal Objective Condemnation in the Law and Universal Objective Justification in the Gospel. This is the clear teaching of God's Word not rationalism. Gregory Jackson engages in Rationalism when he slanderously accuses us of Enthusiasm because he reasons this way: Justification can only be seen narrowly as an individual's being brought to faith by God the Holy Spirit through the means of grace. Those who view Justification in a broader manner as God's action in the historic work of Christ violate that narrow view; hence, those who view Justification in a broader manner are Enthusiasts who believe that God deals with people directly without means. Another thing you should keep in mind is that Christians are permitted to use their reason ministerially (of course, not magisterially). That is what we are doing. We use our reason to serve our understanding of the Holy Scriptures not to govern our understanding of the Holy Scriptures.
Joe Krohn (Jester) Member Username: Jester Post Number: 188 Registered: 4-2011	Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 10:00 am:       "You have Universal Objective Condemnation in the Law and Universal Objective Justification in the Gospel." Spot on. I don't mean to skew this discussion, but if one would want to really expose the doctrine of Brett Meyer et al, transition to the intertwined Doctrine of Election.

SpenerQuesters, Jay Webber, his catechumen Jon Buchholz,
and various ninnies see Rambach as their Reformer.

SpenerQuest Dunderheads Do Not Trust God's Word - But We Have to Listen to Their Words...Endlessly

The UOJ Stormtroopers are Leftists; they are destroyers of faith and have no faith.

It is no wonder that WELS and Missouri do not want to call their so-called missions Lutheran or even a church, because they despise Luther's doctrine and the Means of Grace.

They are only Lutheran when they want grants from Holy Mother Sect. Then they forget their Fuller/Willow Creek nonsense and put on pious looks. We had a college student president who was a Maoist all week long, until he had to speak to the parents gathering. Then he shaved and put on a business suit (three piece) only to revert again on Monday.

Deception is deeply rooted in WELS and Missouri, especially because the radical element took over gradually only by fooling everyone.

WELS has a special institution called GA hazing, where lying is the entire program. They still deceive people by denying GA still exists.

WELS clergy know the game, so when someone tells another outrageous lie, they interpret it thus, "Thus is policy whether you like it or not. Make one more sound about it and you are dead to us."

Missouri really established the program by establishing a sex cult far away from the suspicious eyes of the St. Louis residents, where they might have built an entire suburb with their money. Instead they obeyed the orders of their syphilitic bishop and founder, Martin Stephan, and bought worthless Mormon land in Perryville.

Everyone now blames Stephan, whose death CFW Walther hastened with his brutal treatment, but everyone who left the bishop's family behind in Dresden was guilty of deception and self-deception.

Staying with the deception and abuse means, "I choose the lies over the truth of the Word. I would rather have 10 friends among the abusive than 100 in the Kingdom of God."

People whine about how their conventions are manipulated. But who is man enough to stand at the mike and say, "Point of order. You cannot do this"? No one.

UOJ Enthusiasts - All Personal Because They Have No Faith

Support our fund-raisers, which show that we cannot support ourselves.

I was having some laughs with another writer about UOJ people boiling over on SpenerQuest.

Everything is personal for them, so they have to rave about me or someone else. They do not address Luther's great Galatians Commentary because they lack the capacity to understand and teach Biblical, Lutheran doctrine.

They could develop an ability, but that is impossible when they keep circling the corpses of the Synodical Conference, raising saints from the dead, as it were.

The truth does not depend on whether I am seen as a monster or a prophet. The personal attacks make me smile, but I would rather see the yammering yahoos deal with Luther's doctrine. They refuse. That would be work, heavy labor instead of Starbucks-induced hyperventilating.

The UOJ Hive cannot cite a single Biblical passage to support their delusions. Rather than deal with Luther on "bears the sins of the world" or Paul in Romans 4, they move along with new discoveries made from skimming texts.

SpenerQuest Takes on Brett Meyer - SpenerQuest Loses

George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1071 Registered: 11-2012	Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 3:06 pm:       Brett, to make it easier for you, here is Article Four of the Augsburg Confession. I have put into bold type what justifying faith believes. Perhaps this will help you understand. Our churches also teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works but are freely justified for Christ’s sake through faith when they believe thatthey are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight (Rom. 3-4). Do you see, Brett? Faith believes that he is received into favor and that his sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for his sins. This is what we Lutherans teach. Please notice how faith in the favor of God, faith in the forgiveness of sins, faith in Christ, faith in Christ’s death, and faith that Christ’s death has made satisfaction for one’s sins is the same faith. It isn’t a matter of believing in the forgiveness of sins or of believing in Christ. One doesn’t believe in one or the other or one before the other but in both at the same time. Please respond to what I am pointing out to you from the Augsburg Confession. Is it not perfectly obvious that the object of justifying faith is the favor of God and the forgiveness of sins and that this forgiveness is a present reality that faith grasps? ". . . their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins." ARE FORGIVEN, Brett. Not will be when we believe. Is this not what the words plainly say and mean? Isn't this what we are to believe and through such faith be justified?
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 121 Registered: 1-2008	Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 12:52 am:       Mr. Peter Prange states, “Their very unbelief will be the basis of the divine judgment that comes on them, not God's lack of having forgiven them in Christ Jesus.” This is another UOJ teaching which winds up feeding on itself. What do I mean? UOJ teaches that God forgave the whole unbelieving world in Christ (Jesus Canceled their Debt) among those sins that Jesus forgave the unbelieving world was the sin of unbelief. No, it’s not the unforgiveable sin as the Lutheran Synods falsely claim. Romans 11:23, “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” So then unbelief is a sin that Christ died and paid for. And since UOJ teaches God forgave all sins in Christ then what you are effectively teaching is, “That unless unbelievers believe that God forgave them all sins, including the sin of unbelief, unbelievers will go to Hell for eternity for not believing God forgave them for not believing.” I’m correct in that statement about what UOJ is teaching. UOJ makes equally circular and contradictory statements such as the statement from Joe Krohn, “God has wrath for no man / God has wrath for unbelievers.” Mr. Prange goes on to teach in harmony with the doctrine of UOJ, “If God has not forgiven unbelievers, upon what basis can he judge their unbelief? They would be failing to believe something that wasn't real and true because they hadn't believed it! “ Mr. Prange I believe your statement makes God’s Word subject to the limitations of your human experience and is consistent with the type of theology that has spawned the doctrine of UOJ. Scripture contends against this false dichotomy that UOJ teaches when God declares in John 16:8-9, “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;” Note that it doesn’t state, ‘because they believe not that they were forgiven already’ but it states, “because they believe not on me” on Christ. The false dichotomy is that UOJ sets up the false declaration that the whole world is forgiven all sin (their sins have been canceled, debt removed, the unbelieving world has been absolved) and UOJ argues that if that declaration isn’t true then there’s nothing to believe in – so the declaration has to be true. There is no such declaration taught in Scripture or explained in the Lutheran Confessions. UOJ’s faith clings to a false declaration – no wonder you teach an individual should not look to his faith for comfort – your faith is in a false object that never occurred and not in Christ alone. No wonder UOJists find no comfort from faith for they do not have the faith of the Holy Spirit who teaches in 2 Corinthians 13:5, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” Mr. Mueller, we are at an impasse. You defend UOJ’s teaching that God has in fact declared the whole unbelieving world absolved, justified and righteous in Christ before faith – even if they never have faith in Christ. I believe and confess in accord with Scripture and harmony with the Lutheran Confessions that God has promised to be reconciled to, absolve, justify, declare righteous, adopt as children and save eternally all those who by the gracious gift of faith trust in Christ alone. You deny the doctrine of UOJ teaches a false object of faith by quoting the BOC here, “(men) are freely justified for Christ’s sake through faith when they believe that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ”. You teach that forgiveness must come before faith but the BOC is speaking of the result of faith in Christ alone “through faith” which is believing that they are received into favor and their sins are forgiven. The BOC confirms my confession here (note specifically 113]): The wrath of God cannot be appeased if we set against it our own works, because Christ has been set forth as a Propitiator, so that for His sake,the Father may become reconciled to us. But Christ is not apprehended as a Mediator except by faith. Therefore, by faith alone we obtain remission of sins, when we comfort our hearts with confidence in the mercy promised for 81] Christ's sake. Likewise Paul, Rom. 5:2, says: By whom also we have access, and adds, by faith. Thus, therefore, we are reconciled to the Father, and receive remission of sins when we are comforted with confidence in the mercy promised for Christ's sake… Paul on the contrary, teaches that we have access, i.e., reconciliation, through Christ. And to show how this occurs, he adds that we have access by faith. By faith, therefore, for Christ's sake, we receive remission of sins. We cannot set our own love and our own works over against God's wrath. 86] But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ's sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy. Accordingly, Scripture testifies that by faith we are accounted righteous, Rom. 3:26. We, therefore, will add testimonies which clearly declare that faith is that very righteousness by which we are accounted righteous before God, namely, not because it is a work that is in itself worthy, but because it receives the promise by which God has promised that for Christ's sake He wishes to be propitious to those believing in Him, or because He knows that Christ of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption, 1 Cor. 1:30. 113] But faith, properly so called, is that which assents to the promise[is when my heart, and the Holy Ghost in the heart, says: The promiseof God is true and certain]. Of 114] this faith Scripture speaks. And because it receives the remission of sins, and reconciles us to God, by this faith we are [like Abraham] accounted righteous for Christ's sake before we love and do the works of the Law, although love necessarily follows. 115]Nor, indeed, is this faith an idle knowledge, neither can it coexist with mortal sin, but it is a work of the Holy Ghost, whereby we are freed from death, and terrified minds are encouraged and quickened. 116] http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1072 Registered: 11-2012	Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 7:25 am:       Brett, it is perfectly clear that you are either unable or unwilling to engage actual arguments. I have shown you from the clear words of the Augsburg Confession that justifying faith trusts in a present reality that ones sins are forgiven. That's what the words says. You refuse to engage me on the words before us and insist on running away from the words to other words that you imagine disagree with the words to which I would bind you. You do the same with the Scriptures. You argue like a Jehovah's Witness. Whenever you try to show them how the Bible really does teach the deity of Christ, they run to another passage that they think is incompatible with it. The deniers of objective justification have a cult-like way of thinking. Dancing and bobbing around the Scriptures and the Confessions, never willing to stand still and engage on the actual meaning of the text.
Peter M. Prange (Peterprange) New member Username: Peterprange Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2011	Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 7:33 am:       Mr. Meyer: Would you be so kind as to answer the following question? True or false: God only bestows forgiveness in baptism on those who believe.