Sunday, December 29, 2013

Words of Wisdom from David Virtue

PB Katie destroying The Episcopal Church
will not help anything.


http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=18430#.UsD48_RDuSo

Pope Francis and Archbishop Welby Face Enormous Hurdles in a Post-Christian World 
Can they succeed in reaching Millenials for Christ?


COMMENTARY

By David W. Virtue DD
www.virtueonline.org
December 27, 2013

By any standard, the challenge facing both Western Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic Church in the coming decade is how and who will reach Millenials for Jesus Christ.

With mainline Protestant denominations in the US and Canada aging and dying, and having played out liberal Protestantism to its logical conclusion - a total loss of transcendence and an attendant focus on social issues - a whole generation has been lost to the gospel.

Evangelicalism in America has become so vapid and lightweight it is little more than a sentimental repetition of Bible verses, bad "Christian" TV, and simplistic choruses that fail to touch the deepest roots of the angst that Millenials presumably feel when they are alone with nothing but their thoughts.

I know whereof I speak. I have a nephew who is an American None. He believes in nothing. No, he is not an angry atheist -- that would take hard work. He is not even an agnostic, because that presumes he knows enough to care about what he does or does not believe. He is not a bad person. He abides by the law. He has never had so much as a speeding ticket. He is not a skeptic about religion. He is not against religion nor is he against Jesus. He quite simply sees no point in believing anything that does not touch him. Cajoling him about his need of a Savior doesn't touch him. He has never taken drugs. He doesn't drink. He has a job; he is not interested in marrying or having children. He simply exists from day to day, mindlessly going through life as though nothing really matters. He is probably depressed but denies it. He watches sports on a large TV screen with his friends, goes out on the town with his friends, and then, when they all get bored they go their separate ways. He can be induced into having sex with a girl but there is no sense of commitment to her or to marriage. He rents because he doesn't want the angst of owning a house and paying a mortgage because he might lose his job and then lose the home. He has seen enough of his friends already getting divorced so he says he will never marry even though he is 38. He has no ticking clock because he never wants children. He works out to keep his body fit, but doesn't know why. It fills in a few hours each week. He is alone and doesn't care. He is the new American male.

He is not alone. I am told there are literally millions of American men like him. He is one of the reasons women are angry that they can't find a husband, because men like my nephew won't make a commitment to anything or anybody for very long. 

I have also met better-educated Millenials with better paying jobs, but the mentality is just the same. They are not interested in committing themselves to a woman because they are now so wealthy that they fear losing it in the event of a divorce. Some of these men are nominal Catholics, but their faith means nothing. They go to church only when their parents insist, but it leaves them feeling empty. Secular Jews I meet are no different or better. They maybe smarter, more aggressive in business, but when it comes to religion they have none. If they observe the high holy days, it is at the insistence of parents, but for them, it means nothing. They too are Nones. To all intents and purposes God is dead. They are not even waiting for Godot...and so for Millenials, Christianity and Judaism are quite simply irrelevant. Some of them believe in something called "spirituality", but they don't really know what it means. They don't believe in Oprah or Jesus, care little for politics, and could not care less if you are Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, or Baptist. They simply don't care.

Let me be absolutely clear. Nones are not bad people. They don't go around breaking the law; they hold down jobs; they save money; but they are committed to NOTHING spiritually. That is the tragedy.

What I want to know is: who and how is someone going to reach my nephew and the millions of other men (and women) like him for Christ? I have been praying for my nephew for more than a quarter of a century to no avail. I once told him I had been praying for him for over three decades and he simply said, "Well it hasn't done much good has it?" He wasn't mad or disappointed. It was simply an observation. He was not trying to hurt me. He just simply didn't see the point.

can tell you this. Billy Graham crusades won't touch Millennials, neither will ALPHA courses. Mega churches won't touch them, either. Bishops who wear pointy hats and clergy in collars leaves them unmoved. They are way too cynical for the health and wealth prosperity gospel they see and hear on TV. Islam sends them flying to the hills. Death and destruction on TV leaves them unmoved when it happens in real life. They have seen so much of it on television that it now leaves them cold. Watching Aleppo (in Syria) being bombed might just as well be a scene from a movie. For them, Jesus does not save. They don't even know what the questions are.

The raw naked truth is that virtually nobody has a handle on reaching a generation of men and women who have no denominational loyalty, no sense of sin, no apparent fear of God, and no apparent real need of God or a savior.

If you think I exaggerate, go to any local bar and start talking to men and women in their 20s, 30s and 40s. Ask them what makes them really tick. It might be money, it might be sex or sports, for a few it might be power. One thing it won't be is fear of God, or judgment or eternity without Christ.

Enter two new religious leaders.

First on the scene is an evangelical Anglican, Archbishop Justin Welby, an ALPHA convert who came by it honestly through family tragedy. He is not a None. (Rowan Williams was staggeringly irrelevant not only to the Anglican Communion but to anyone without faith.) Welby really believes in Jesus. There is no doubt about his own personal conversion and, like St. Paul, he wants to spread the word. To date he has not been very successful. He is flip flopping on (homo)sexuality issues (most Nones really don't care about what sexual preference you like or have) so he is coming across as weak and insecure.

Ninety percent of the British public could not care less about the Church of England and, if Archbishop George Carey is right, the CofE won't be around in 25 years anyway. Disestablishment might hold off disintegration for a while, perhaps even jump start things, but don't hold your breath. Death is in the air for the Church of England. You can smell it. Islam is quietly growing and become more insistent in its demands with each passing year in the British Isles. They will not be stopped. The whole homosexual enterprise and drive is nothing more than the bankrupt end of a dying decrepit church. Pansexuality saves no one and nothing.

Next on the scene is a Global South leader in the person of Pope Francis. To no one's surprise, the election of Pope Francis was selected as the year's No. 1 religion story by the journalists in the Religion Newswriters Association, with the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI being the No. 2 story. Pope Francis was also named "Religion Newsmaker" of the Year.

This humble man has shown that he wants a church focused on mission, that keeps Catholic doctrine but with a renewed commitment to mercy and pastoral care for the poor, the powerless and those of little or no faith. He wants to build a church defined by its actions, not just by words, as one commentator noted. He lambastes the rich, feels for the poor, practices humility and will probably pick up a Nobel Prize for peace at least once in his life time. 

Fair enough. But will that jump start Millenials who don't give a damn about doctrine. They have heard, seen and been inundated with calls to give money to more organizations than you can swing a cat at. They have been solicited by organizations ranging from the Salvation Army to the ASPCA and everything in between and they are inured to it. Reaching out with a helping hand works for healthy seniors and retirees with money and time on their hands, but it won't move Millenials.

For all his humility, honesty and love of the poor, admiration for this man will temper over time because the culture, already in free fall, will catch up with him and ultimately sideline him. Mainstream media will get bored with him. Pansexualists will rise up to call him homophobic because they will discover that he really hasn't changed his or his church's teaching on sexuality. They will quickly discard him.

There is no William Buckley with his cool Catholic intellectualness or a Cardinal Sheen capable of jumpstarting faith in Millenials waiting in the wings.

Orthodox Protestant soteriological differences with Rome won't touch Millenials. That day is gone.

So the question must be asked, what will jump start Millenials in North America and Western Europe to faith in Jesus Christ?

There are seeds of hope. Small non-denominational storefront churches are reaching out to Millenials with some success, but they are few and far between. Pastors of these churches I talk to have to work through layers and layers of fundamentalism, fear, abuse, and rejection before they get to first base with the faith. The few they reach are drops in the bucket, but they are drops.

Christian therapists I talk to spend hours with Millenials untangling horror stories of faith once believed, then lost, and now hated.

Is revival possible? Can there be a revival without the ground work being laid first? Perhaps. Or is it, as one theologian wrote, "I am so weary of the tyranny of the gay lobby. I fully expect physical persecution from this quarter soon. What accounts for the sudden contagion in so many societies? It can't be nature all of a sudden. It has to be a moral plague as a result of psychological susceptibility to Satanic suggestion exerted culturally with enormous persuasive force in a blind and godless world."

But then he said something that scared me. "Divine restraint is being withdrawn [in the land] and horrible violence and inhumanity will inevitably ensue. Government and media and worthless celebrities are ensnared in the deceit. I tremble." And so will Millenials. Perhaps then and only then will the fear of the Lord be the beginning of wisdom.

END

Working on Broadcasting Problem - May Have Solution


We lost connections four times and could not broadcast this Sunday.

I had some fairly quick responses from Ustream and received some tutoring from Little Ichabod, plus comments from our retired broadcaster in Michigan.

Ustream's position is that I need more bandwidth, so I phoned Cox. They doubled it for $11 more a month.

That is the easiest and fastest fix. There are a few tricks in getting more data out the door, besides even more bandwidth. I am checking into those as well.

A New Low Standard in Websties - Illuminati or WELS?



http://illuminechurch.com/about/

Bad everything. That is their grey type - not my fault. The Bible is well represented in the Confessions! I did not know that.

OUR CHRISTIAN HERITAGE

This seal was designed for Martin Luther and is probably the most 
well-known Lutheran logo.
This seal was designed for Martin Luther and is probably the most well-known Lutheran logo.
Illumine Church follows the Bible first and foremost. We find that the teachings of the Bible are well represented in the Lutheran Confessions (or here). These documents were prepared in the 16th century during the Protestant Reformation. Undeniably, life is not the same today as it was in Germany in the 1500s, but fortunately for all of us, God remains the same forever. The truths of grace and love and redemption and the practical wisdom for life that God has given us through his word are just as real and useful as they were when Christians 500 years ago sat down to summarize them so that God's people could see them more clearly.

The Sunday after Christmas, 2013




The Sunday after Christmas

Pastor Gregory L. Jackson


Bethany Lutheran Church, 10 AM Central Time


The Hymn # 85:1-8 From Heaven Above 4.55
The Confession of Sins
The Absolution
The Introit p. 16
The Gloria Patri
The Kyrie p. 17
The Gloria in Excelsis
The Salutation and Collect p. 19
The Epistle and Gradual       
The Gospel              
Glory be to Thee, O Lord!
Praise be to Thee, O Christ!
The Nicene Creed p. 22
The Sermon Hymn #85:9-15 From Heaven Above 4.55

 Gospel of Joy

The Hymn #657            Beautiful Savior                    4.24
The Preface p. 24
The Sanctus p. 26
The Lord's Prayer p. 27
The Words of Institution
The Agnus Dei p. 28
The Nunc Dimittis p. 29
The Benediction p. 31
The Hymn #83     Hark! What Mean Those Holy Voices  4:40

KJV Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

KJV Luke 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. 39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Sunday After Christmas
O almighty and everlasting God, mercifully direct our ways, that we may walk in Thy law, and be made to abound in good works: through Thy beloved Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, one true God, world without end. Amen.


Gospel of Joy
People miss the reason for Christmas joy. They tend to look at the things we associate with Christmas, such as family get-togethers and presents, getting time off work.

The true Christmas story is the reason for the joy, and it is best told by children, as people recognize. One of the least attentive members always came to the Christmas program because he enjoyed hearing the Christmas story through children. He said, “No offense, pastor, but you get paid. It is much better coming from a child.” And although he had many failings as a man and as a father, he at least had that connection with the Gospel and loved to hear it.

The people who walked in darkness had seen a great light. We can hardly imagine how difficult it was in those days to grasp religion when everyone taught works and the burden of the Law. The true Judaism of the Old Testament had been covered over with so many layers of tradition that people did not hear it from the professional clergy. The words were still spoken, if misunderstood. They had the Book of Isaiah and the Psalms, more than enough to teach them about the Christ.

Sometimes we recognize a long-lost truth better after we have been warned a few times and also misled by those who oppose that truth. My friends post about Noah’s Ark being found in Turkey. Definite proof appears in various places, making the skeptics even more skeptical. I told one, “I found Noah’s Ark long ago, in the Bible.” I was trying to say – I do not need the wood and the iron nails. I know it is the truth. Evidence is all around us about the Flood, which is fine, but the revelation comes from the Holy Spirit, not from the study of geography. That is just an extra benefit, showing us how all things work together.

In darkness, a small light means everything. No one knows that until absolute darkness is required in a battle or a photography darkroom. Ordinary light fogs film and paper, so a darkroom has to bee sealed up against those stray beams so only an amber light illuminates the chemical process. And that room looks very dark until the door is shut and the eyes adjust. Then light leaks are powerful reminders of how light conquers darkness.

When Jesus was born, people were used to darkness but longed for light. Joseph and Mary were told the Gospel message, so great that it was both wonderful and disturbing. The honesty of the story shows, because Joseph reacted as any man would, but God’s message tempered his action and thoughts. Mary in her humble faith was filled with awe at her special role.

With we hear normal welcome news, we wonder, “Can this be true?” We can see how God strengthened the faith of Mary and Joseph with repeated confirmations of the truth. They experienced trials and joys that no other can repeat, from the arduous journey and rejection in their home town to the angelic help and messages. The rationalistic imagination wants to supply details, such as fruit trees bending down for Mary to eat from them, a donkey giving her a ride all the way up to mountainous Jerusalem. Did she have angelic obstetrical help? Nothing is said. Yet they trust in God and there is no reason to doubt that God made the impossible possible – without adding details that we need.

The people sat in darkness because they knew Law and sin, but the Law only made the knowledge of sin worse for them. The Law cannot solve the problem of sin any more than an X-ray can heal a broken bone.

The entire Christmas story is one of God’s grace and love, so the narrative provokes and increases faith.

The Nativity foreshadows the Atonement in many ways, with rejection and indifference portrayed, and Simeon’s strange saying. The Atonement by itself might be too much for most people to grasp and believe, were it not for the Nativity.

34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

The Nativity and the Atonement go well together, the Two Natures united in the One Person. The Virgin Birth of Christ permits only a child-like faith. The adults (so to speak) look for rationalistic excuses. Or they praise it as a children’s tale (good for the kiddies) or a myth (a universal truth that never happened). The angels appeared to shepherds. That is another step too far for the rationalists. They start lecturing us every December that it could not have taken place in December, based on their pin-headed (self-serving) assumption that shepherds were not in their field at that time. Only in the lambing season, they claim each year. Only then. But the detective in me asks, “Only then?” Not when predators might be around? Or what other reasons since I have never raised any sheep, just like the spring-lambing advocates.

This requires faith in the revealed Word and faith in God’s activities and promises. Since all the Promises are united in this revealed truth, one cannot pick and choose the adult concepts and separate them from those requiring a child-like faith.

And that is the reason why the professional clergy are so easily misled and so eager to be false guides. Once they have another set of authorities, besides Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they can pontificate about their experts and ignore the Four Evangelists.

Thus faith does create the rising and falling of many. And a sword does pierce Mary’s heart. The very Savior she bore and raised was rejected by His people and executed as a criminal. On the one hand were promises of an everlasting and increasing Kingdom, from Isaiah 9, but what she experienced was quite different. They were a small, persecuted band. The glories of the future were invisible, but faith does not walk by sight.

Faith divides people in this way. Those who trust in the Savior are united with this truth and free from the demands of the Law, forgiven of their sins and promised eternal life. Those who lack this faith (worse – who have lost this faith) are constantly agitated and annoyed by anyone who believes. They must fix the believers and make them adults again.

Nothing is clearer than the immediate rejection of believers when they testify about the truth. A new story about this has been published in Christianity Today magazine. The family became Mormon and did all the good Mormon things. Then, when the son was on his missionary trip, he began reading a New Testament and discovered grace, faith, and the error of Mormonism. He was expelled as a missionary. The family studied the New Testament together and left the sect. Now they have written a book about it.


Jesus said in John’s Gospel – They will excommunicate you (expel you from the synagogue) – and they have. Falsehood always seeks to exterminate the truth but God’s truth spreads through persecution and rejection.  

Will Matt Harrison, Paul McCain, Mark Schroeder, and Pope John the Malefactor Give Up Their Thrivent Loot and Deluxe ELCA Seminars for the Babies?

Those are not stars in his eyes, those are dollar signs.

AuthorMessage
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Rev. Robert Fischer (Fischer)
Intermediate Member
Username: Fischer

Post Number: 334
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 4:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


LCMS issues statement about Thrivent Choice Dollars®

The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (LCMS) is deeply concerned by the news that Thrivent Financial has recognized Planned Parenthood of Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota as a potential recipient of funding through its Thrivent Choice Dollars grant program. The LCMS always has been, and will continue to be, clear and faithful in its proclamation of the sanctity of all human life from conception until natural death. We are currently in conversation with Thrivent Financial and pray for a God-pleasing resolution to this matter so that the pro-life witness of individual Lutherans and the LCMS will not be compromised.

Maggie Karner, Director
LCMS Life and Health Ministries

Rev. Dr. Matthew C. Harrison, President
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod


http://blogs.lcms.org/2013/lcms-issues-statement-a bout-thrivent-choice-dollars
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Robert C. Baker (Robert_c_baker)
Intermediate Member
Username: Robert_c_baker

Post Number: 402
Registered: 2-2012
Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 6:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


The IC is right in responding to this issue, especially given that it has incited a furor among some members of the LCMS.

What happens with this will be nil, however. The LCMS benefits financially from the its relationship with Thrivent, and so any "conversation" that ensues will accomplish only two things: 1) Express the Synod's displeasure to Thrivent, which will be ignored by that organization; and 2) Appease the Administration's base of supporters.

Again, nothing will come of this. Recall that although the Synod in 2010 mandated the removal of RSO's violating the Synod's doctrine and practice regarding homosexual adoption, the Harrison Administration, after over 3 years, still has not dealt with Lutheran Children and Family Services of Illinois, which has stated publicly, and on several occasions, that it will abide by Illinois state law by adopting children into homosexual contexts.

Further, witness the multiple "conversations" (letters) going back and forth between the Administration and the Boy Scouts of America. The result was that the Synod caved, and now supports allowing self-identified gay scouts to be members in congregational troops.

Witness further the 2013 Convention, in which the Adminstration orchestrated substituting a Michigan District resolution supporting a biblical understanding of marriage, for one specially crafted in the bowels of the IC, in which now the Synod will develop an RSO to minister to people with "same-sex attraction," which is euphemistic evangelispeak for gay.

No, everything that is done is done to maintain the status quo, and to preserve the ever-smaller LCMS business empire, now in the hands of neo-Lutheran liturgiologists bent, quite literally, on world domination.

It's all about relationships.TM
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Rick Strickert (Carlvehse)
Senior Member
Username: Carlvehse

Post Number: 4304
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 6:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


From "Synod issues statement on Thrivent, Planned Parenthood":
"We are currently in conversation with Thrivent Financial and pray for a God-pleasing resolution to this matter so that the pro-life witness of individual Lutherans and the LCMS will not be compromised.”

At this writing, Thrivent’s leaders, she [Karner] said, “are currently working on a solution that will consider all of the feedback that they have received from the LCMS and individual, concerned, pro-life Lutherans.”
Hmmmmm...

These statements sound suspiciously like previous statements here and here asking for patience while the LCMS meets with BSA and evaluates a response... before the LCMS completely caved to BSA and agreed to allow openly homosexual Scouts into LCMS church-sponsored troops.

And these statements also sound suspiciously like previous statements here and here asking for patience while LCMS officials meet with and get an apology from a Newtown pastor for his participation in a syncretic prayer service... before the LCMS caved and apologized for even trying to stand up to such syncretism and unionism.

So, don't hold your breath for a "Hier stehe, ich kann nicht anders" moment coming from the Purple Palace.
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Rick Strickert (Carlvehse)
Senior Member
Username: Carlvehse

Post Number: 4305
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, December 20, 2013 - 11:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


Excerpted from a LifeNews article, "Thrivent Would Facilitate Donations from Lutherans to Planned Parenthood" by Michael Schuermann:
Thrivent is playing a dangerous game. They have created a charitable giving program that lacks any sort of rules limiting eligible organizations to those that are consistent with the word of God. At any time, Thrivent Choice dollars could easily end up in the hands of Planned Parenthood.

It seems that Thrivent could change this quickly. The Terms & Conditions for organizationsparticipating in the Thrivent Choice program clearly state that “Thrivent Financial adopts Terms and Conditions as well as other Program Rules for Thrivent Choice at its sole discretion. Thrivent Financial may change, limit, modify, cancel or revoke Thrivent Choice and/or Terms and Conditions and/or other Program Rules at any time and for any reason, with or without notice…” In other words, Thrivent can make a rule eliminating the eligibility of organizations like Planned Parenthood.

Likewise, the member’s direction to Thrivent to give Thrivent Choice dollars to a specific organization is only a direction – in other words, similar to advice. According to the Terms & Conditions for members, “Thrivent Financial retains total discretion as to whether or how all Choice Dollars are distributed. Any “direction” that I provide to Thrivent to designate recipients of Choice Dollars is a request and recommendation from me suggesting a recipient of Choice Dollars funding which Thrivent is under no legal obligation to approve or follow. The use of the term “direct,” “direction,” “choose,” “choice” or other terms in these Terms and Conditions or in any communications regarding Thrivent Choice, does not provide me with any authority to make any decision regarding the use of any funds.”
So Thrivant's "Choice Dollars" program, which now includes murder-by-abortion providers, is exactly that - Thrivant's Choice.

It remains to be seen whether, for the Harrison administration, there will be "a God-pleasing resolution to this matter so that the pro-life witness of individual Lutherans and the LCMS will not be compromised."
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Rick Strickert (Carlvehse)
Senior Member
Username: Carlvehse

Post Number: 4306
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Posted on Friday, December 20, 2013 - 2:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


From a December 20, 2013, Thrivent bulletin, "Members, Thrivent Take Action on Thrivent Choice® Issue":
Thrivent Financial is a membership organization of Christians with more than two million members in more than 1,300 local chapters nationwide. While our membership holds diverse points of view on faith and social issues, we share a common purpose to be wise with money and live generously.

We listen to concerns from all of our members, and we are listening now.

As a grassroots organization, we are committed to honoring the desire of our members and local chapters to choose and support the non-profit organizations that are meaningful to them. We recognize that the eligibility of a Planned Parenthood affiliate, approved by one of our local chapters, has been controversial.

After input, discussion and a review of the concerns from Thrivent members, the leadership of this local chapter voted Thursday to remove it from the Thrivent Choice program effective immediately. Given the deeply held views on this issue across our membership, we also are taking action to address the concerns of our membership. These steps include temporarily suspending all pro-choice and pro-life organizations from the Thrivent Choice program, placing a temporary hold on the addition and removal of nonprofit organizations from the program, and conducting a comprehensive program review.

The Thrivent Choice program is highly valued by our members. More than 270,000 members have used it to direct some $47 million – 91% of it to Christian congregations, schools, camps/outdoor ministries, and social ministries. We will seek input from our members, chapter leaders and others in the communities we serve with the goal of designing and delivering a program that continues to support the priorities of our members and our common purpose.

Thrivent members, if you would like to share your feedback, you may reach the Thrivent Choice® team using the Contact Form on this page. You may also write to:


Thrivent Choice Program
4321 N Ballard Road
Appleton, WI 54919
 WHAT? Suspension of pro-murder-by-abortion organizations from the Thrivent Choice program is only temporary?! And Thrivent is also suspending Pro-life organizations?!?

Maybe we better check to see if the Hitler Youth or NABLA groups are still on the Thrivent Choice program.
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Rex Grissom (Rex)
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Posted on Friday, December 20, 2013 - 4:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


I guess that's what membership in a self described "Faith based organization" whose largest contingent comes from a synod that denies the resurrection and puts gay women in the pulpit, gets you.

I concur with the prediction that Thrivent will "study" and Missouri will fold it's hands for a little sleep. Aaaaagain.

Rex


"Sorry guys, rabid sectarianism takes up a lot of my time."
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Rev. Robert Fischer (Fischer)
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Post Number: 335
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Posted on Friday, December 20, 2013 - 5:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


This is Synod's latest update on the Thrivent situation:

LCMS Responds to Thrivent's Choice Dollars® Statement

With the recent Thrivent announcement to reconsider their Choice Dollars® Program, the LCMS is encouraged to learn that Thrivent is beginning to recognize the serious concern its members have when their choice dollars are stewarded toward organizations such as Planned Parenthood that directly support the abortion industry and the killing of unborn children.

"We are very happy that Thrivent was willing to reconsider this issue. However, the LCMS and every one of its entities and congregations are both pro-life and nonprofit, so we certainly hope that Thrivent will continue to support such pro-life, nonprofit organizations," said the Rev. Dr. Matthew C. Harrison, president of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod.

LCMS members are urged to express their concerns directly to Thrivent Financial during this time of re-evaluation of the Choice Dollars® Program.
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Rick Strickert (Carlvehse)
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Username: Carlvehse

Post Number: 4307
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Posted on Friday, December 20, 2013 - 6:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


The December 20, 2013, LCMS announcement can be seen at "Thrivent removes Planned Parenthood from ‘Choice’ program." Also there is a link to a list of suspended organizations, showing 53 organizations suspended.

The Hitler Youth group and NAMBLA are not listed as suspended, so one will have to check to see if these organizations are on the Thrivent Choice list of those politically correct organizations that survived the cut.
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R.D. (Ryan11676)
Intermediate Member
Username: Ryan11676

Post Number: 378
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Friday, December 20, 2013 - 8:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


Why doesnt lcms start it's own such organization? Call it Aid Association for Lutherans or something.

Rex nailed it above. I'll go further. It's time to start yankin our portfolios from thrivent.
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LaMarr Blecker (Carpedecum)
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Username: Carpedecum

Post Number: 468
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Friday, December 20, 2013 - 8:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


LCMS statement = weasel words in view of Matt. 6:19-20, 24
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Tim Schenks (Tschenks)
Advanced Member
Username: Tschenks

Post Number: 860
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 21, 2013 - 1:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


Thrivent already refused to match funds for Lutherans for Life a few years ago.
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Rick Strickert (Carlvehse)
Senior Member
Username: Carlvehse

Post Number: 4308
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 21, 2013 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


Given the ELCA Membership Trend and the LCMS Membership Trend it should not be surprising to see Thrivent working to attract and increase its market share of non-Lutheran customers, even at the expense of losing or even offending some of its original base.
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Rick Strickert (Carlvehse)
Senior Member
Username: Carlvehse

Post Number: 4309
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 21, 2013 - 9:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


The Thrivent announcement, "Members, Thrivent Take Action on Thrivent Choice® Issue" states that it is "temporarily suspending all pro-choice and pro-life organizations from the Thrivent Choice program, placing a temporary hold on the addition and removal of nonprofit organizations from the program, and conducting a comprehensive program review."

1. The use of "temporarily suspending" indicates that the murder-by-abortion organizations possibly may be put back on the Thrivent Choice program following a "comprehensive program review."

2. By temporarily suspending non-profit pro-life organizations from its Choice program, Thrivent has treated and effectively equated these pro-life organizations with murder-by-abortion organizations just as much as one may effectively equate the Thrivent Financial for Lutherans Board of Directors, including Thrivent's President, with morally incompetent management.

The Bare Bulb article, "Dear Thrivent," points out another problem about Thrivent management and their pathetic announcement.
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Doug Andersen (Lutherman)
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Username: Lutherman

Post Number: 362
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 21, 2013 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


Thrivent is not Lutheran. It is just another secular insurance/financial corporation...
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Jojakim Dettmann (Random_layman)
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Username: Random_layman

Post Number: 3102
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 22, 2013 - 12:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


Thrivent votes all of the shares it manages in accord with pro homosexual politics:

http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/show.c gi?tpc=84706&post=227939#POST227939

This attitude is why nothing will be done to fix it:
http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/show.c gi?tpc=87116&post=237192#POST237192
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Rick Strickert (Carlvehse)
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Username: Carlvehse

Post Number: 4310
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 22, 2013 - 2:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


Here is a link to the WELS Statement Regarding Thrivent Choice Program. At the end there is a note with a link to Thrivent's subsequent statement temporarily suspending all pro-choice and pro-life organizations from the Thrivent Choice program.

There is nothing regarding Thrivent on the ELS news website.

There is nothing on the Thrivent Choice program and Planned Parenthood on the North American Lutheran Church website

There is nothing on the XXXA website.
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Sharlene Miers (Joyfulnoise)
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Username: Joyfulnoise

Post Number: 851
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 26, 2013 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


I think by suspending pro life organizations, Thrivent is attempting to punish those members who had the audacity to complain about their contributions to Planned Parenthood.
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Rick Strickert (Carlvehse)
Senior Member
Username: Carlvehse

Post Number: 4316
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2013 - 9:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


It is also possible that the announcement by Thriven't temporarily suspending Choice funding to pro-life as well as pro-murder-by-abortion groups would help cover up that Thriven't caved to Christian pressure.

It would also lessen outrage from cults like NALC, CORE and XXXA, and other leftist potential customers, that their genocidal comrades (temporarily) could not get access to Thriven't funding.
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Rick Strickert (Carlvehse)
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Username: Carlvehse

Post Number: 4317
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2013 - 10:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


The Purple Palace statements on Thriven't here and here (and any future statements) are diplomatically worded and avoid endangering the current enrollment of LCMS organizations eligible to receive Thriven't Choice dollars.
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Robert C. Baker (Robert_c_baker)
Intermediate Member
Username: Robert_c_baker

Post Number: 405
Registered: 2-2012
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2013 - 10:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


Instead of doling out Thrivent Choice dollars, wouldn't it be better for the company to reduce its premiums?

If Thrivent has money to give away, then it has collected too much to begin with.
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Franz Linden (Franz_mann)
Senior Member
Username: Franz_mann

Post Number: 1818
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2013 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


President Harrison writes:

The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (LCMS) is deeply concerned by the news that Thrivent Financial has recognized Planned Parenthood of Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota as a potential recipient of funding through its Thrivent Choice Dollars grant program.

Deeply concerned? How deeply, exactly?

This is politician speak. "We're deeply concerned, so deeply concerned that we're going to tell everyone that we are deeply concerned."

Wow! There's a bold stance against infanticide.

Franz
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Rick Strickert (Carlvehse)
Senior Member
Username: Carlvehse

Post Number: 4318
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2013 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


Deeply concerned? How deeply, exactly?

Enter "deeply concerned" into internet search engines like Dogpile or DuckDuckGo to see how widespread that diplomatic euphemism is used.
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Rick Strickert (Carlvehse)
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Username: Carlvehse

Post Number: 4319
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2013 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


Instead of doling out Thrivent Choice dollars, wouldn't it be better for the company to reduce its premiums?

That depends on how much "good corporate citizenship" advertising mileage Thriven't can milk out of its Choice program.
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Rev. Kevin D. Vogts (Kevin_vogts)
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Username: Kevin_vogts

Post Number: 987
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2013 - 8:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


>>Instead of doling out Thrivent Choice dollars, wouldn't it be better for the company to reduce its premiums?

As a fraternal benefit society (not insurance company), which is a unique corporate construct with along and complicated historical background, they cannot simply reduce their premiums but are required to distribute funds for fraternal purposes.
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Robert C. Baker (Robert_c_baker)
Intermediate Member
Username: Robert_c_baker

Post Number: 406
Registered: 2-2012
Posted on Saturday, December 28, 2013 - 10:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


Kevin, Thrivent most certainly can reduce the amount it charges its customers. There's nothing in their charter requiring a certain pricing structure.

More importantly, folks can disassociate themselves from this fraternal organization as a matter of conscience.
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Rev. Kevin D. Vogts (Kevin_vogts)
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Username: Kevin_vogts

Post Number: 988
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 28, 2013 - 4:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post


I was formerly president of the Union County, South Dakota chapter of Thrivent, so I am somewhat familiar with this topic. The laws governing fraternal benefit societies require them to disburse certain proportions of funds for fraternal benefit purposes. There has been some concern by regulators recently that some fraternal benefit societies (not Thrivent) are not disbursing adequate amounts for fraternal benefit purposes.

The specific suggestion made above was, "Instead of doling out Thrivent Choice dollars, wouldn't it be better for the company to reduce its premiums?" However, in order to remain in conformity with their charter as a fraternal benefit society they cannot reduce the amount they currently distribute, and in fact are seeking to increase that amount. Though Thrivent has not yet been called into question by regulators, some other fraternal benefit societies have, and Thrivent is careful to fulfill this requirement. So the specific suggestion above is not possible.

They could, of course, lower premiums either by reducing administrative costs or increasing the return on their investments, but both of those suggestions are a different matter. The disbursements for fraternal benefit purposes are not overhead or administrative or even marketing or public relations expenses, which could be reduced. They are a mandatory expenditure required by law for a fraternal benefit society.

All this being said, I want to make it clear that I am appalled at Thrivent suspending over 50 religious pro-life organizations because of legitimate concerns about one secular pro-abortion organization. I immediately came to the same conclusion as Sharlene above (great minds think alike) that they seem to be punishing pro-life members who complained. I wrote them a lengthy letter in which I said this, and concluded that it was ironic that last year they "expanded the common bond" to include non-Lutherans -- because now with this action they have just hung onto Thrivent a sign which says, "Missouri and Wisconsin Synods NOT WELCOME."

***

GJ - Vogts neglected to say these local Thrivent chapters are ELCA-WELS-LCMS-ELS-CLC (sic).

Yes, I know the CLC (sic) claims to be apart from Thrivent work, but they got rid of a pastor for mentioning that Immanuel in Mankato (CLC sic) was eagerly part of Thrivent.

Local chapters are just one more expression of WELS and Missouri being one with ELCA. They all work together at the local level, at the board level, and at the national level.

Mark/Avoid Jeske belongs to Missouri and WELS, holding a national board position at Thrivent. Why not take this up with him? Or ask Harrison, McCain, and Schroeder why Jeske is not excommunicated for funding Planned Parenthood.

Harrison admitted at the Emmaus Conference that his synod alone gets $50 to $60 million each year from Thrivent.

ELCA probably gets double that, so all the LCMS-WELS members are funding ELCA.

A bit hypocritical?