Deputy Doug Engelbrecht To Retire from the Parish and His Bishop's Throne.DP-in-Waiting Zack Waits

----------------------------- R E T I R E M E N T --------------------------
 
    Engelbrecht, Rev Douglas   Trinity - Neenah WI             07/31/2014

Fox Valley propagandist Joel Lillo admires the DP who promotes and defends plagiarism,
but supports excommunication of those who identify the fraud in the Valley.

Especially in WELS - especially in the Mark Jeske
Thrivent abortion on demand circuit.

More Unwarranted Scat from Joel Lillo - WELS Pastor and Fox Valley Enthusiast. How Many One Last Comments Are Left?

Here's a fun little experiment for you to try, Gregory the P*** Poor...

Start unfairly and unrelentingly criticizing people whom your students personally know and respect. Start putting the worst construction on everything those people say and do. Do this everyday. When they point out that you only know rumors about them and that they know the person you're criticizing and that you're only picking and choosing the details of that person's life to make him or her look as bad as you possibly can, insult them and wave around your PhD to assure them that you know way more about their friend than they do. [GJ - Run-on sentence shows no skill in composition and a definite lack of self-control.]  After that, see how long your students continue to love you.

***

GJ

Graphic for Ski's famous scrotum sermon.
Knowing his record, they invited him "to preach"
and kept up his miserable rant for many months - until exposed.

Lillo did not designate his favorite law-breakers in WELS, but we all know he dotes on Ski and treasures every word copied from Groeschel.

Here is a nugget from Ski's great anniversary scrotum sermon, preached at a parish where Gausewitz' father served -

Ski:

Our church’s mission statement downtown is this... The Core exists to transform lives for Jesus through faith that is real, relevant and relational.  My personal mission statement is this, because I’ve developed my own... From every pore of my body, I will ooze Jesus Christ so that in this world, as I brush up against people, my sweaty, oozy Jesus will get all over them!  Every day he gives you opportunities.  Every day!

Anonymous sources have told me that Ski unleashes this tripe on everyone when he gives a guest sermon. Feel free to admire such sermonizing, Pastor Lillo.

When Lillo participated in the fake anonymous blog from Fox Valley, he went along with that writer attacking WELS members by name - not just me. The childish graphics spoke more of mental illness than satire. I truly feel sorry for the bunch of them and wish them well in their therapeutic sessions, if they are ever contrite enough to engage a doctor to help them.

Prophetic photoshop.
This bankrupt bar became The CORE's third entertainment venue.
Hard drinking. Obscene magazines. Porno-talk.
"Just the man we need to work side-by-side with DP Patterson."

PS - I caught one Black student plagiarizing. She apologized in writing and has been a great friend ever since. 

No Wonder Teachers Live So Long

My mother kept copies of this 1931 photograph in the original folder." Co-ed 1931."
She was leaving for Teacher's College, to teach in one-room rural schools,
finally in the Moline system and at Illinois State University.

I finished another semester at Ecclesia College, teaching English composition and creative writing. On Saturday I marched with the faculty in the graduation procession. The hall was standing room only, even with panic searches for extra chairs.

I teach the first and second year students, so now I will know most of the students by name, which is great fun during lunch. "Ely - glad to see you have recovered enough to eat lunch today. We were all sorry about your life-threatening illness this morning."  Ely - "I wasn't sick. I was sleeping." GJ - "As I suspected, looking at your plate."

Younger students enjoy bantering in class and around the small campus. When I mark people late for class or confiscate a cell phone, the "hanging judge" votes on their verdict. Most of the time, she indicates a noose, which is followed by dramatic cries of outrage. We have a lot of fun.

Every school has anonymous student evaluations. The undergrads have to post an evaluation before they can read their grades, so they are motivated.

The illiterates of Fox Valley and Mequon will be saddened by the results from the institutions of higher education where I work. I receive the highest ratings at all the schools, and one school has put me in their top 10% of instructors with additional training.

Every day I write. Either I am posting to the blog, writing for online students, or grading classroom students  using an online platform.

“I am afraid that the schools will prove the very gates of hell, unless they diligently labor in explaining the Holy Scriptures and engraving them in the heart of the youth.” 
― Martin Luther

“A teacher affects eternity; he can never tell where his influence stops.” 
― Henry Adams

Mom earned her BA 12 years later, from Augustana College,
which is where I met Mrs. I on the first day of class.

Pastors Should Be Gardeners - Not Armchair City-Slickers

The Parables of Jesus emphasize Creation, especially those experiences in the everyday lives of people.

How can anyone understand John 15:1-10 without growing grapes, cultivating roses, or harvesting fruit?


I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and his withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

The often overlooked parable of leaven in Matthew 13 is good for bakers, if they have used yeast or sourdough. The rest of the parables are mostly outdoor examples.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

What is the early and late rain? The early rain established the crop just sown or planted. My first lesson was watering the seeds enough to get them fully established. The late rain is the moisture needed to bring the crop to fruition.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Mark's unique example is the seed growing secretly. We go to bed after doing the work and the plants come up. There is no greater comfort about broadcasting the Word.

Mark 4:26 And He said, “The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground, 27 and should sleep by night and rise by day, and the seed should sprout and grow, he himself does not know how. 28 For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head. 29 But when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”

What should we think and believe about supposed failures in the ministry. Mark 4 (Matthew 13) provides the parable and the explanation. If WELS-ELS-LCMS leaders read the parable and believed it, they would make study at Fuller-Trinity-Willowcreek a capital offense. Instead, justification by faith is cause for excommunication.

The Parable of the Sower
Mk. 4.1-9 · Lk. 8.4-8
1	The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2	And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; Lk. 5.1-3 and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3	And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4	and when he sowed, some seeds fell by the wayside, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5	some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6	and when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7	And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8	but other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9	Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
The Purpose of the Parables
Mk. 4.10-12 · Lk. 8.9, 10
10	¶ And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11	He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12	For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Mt. 25.29 · Mk. 4.25 · Lk. 8.18 ; 19.26
13	Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14	And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith,          By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15	for this people's heart is waxed gross,          and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Is. 6.9, 10
16	But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17	For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. Lk. 10.23, 24
Jesus Explains the Parable of the Sower
Mk. 4.13-20 · Lk. 8.11-15
18	¶ Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19	When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the wayside.
20	But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21	yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22	He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23	But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandethit; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
The 500 Biblical references to sheep and shepherding are lost on city-slickers who have never experienced the group stupidity of sheep and their individual stubbornness. Dropping Latin from the curriculum was bad enough; lack of farm experience is the real crime. How else can one explain the ovine and bovine behavior of all  people, including ourselves? Isaiah 53 1  Who hath believed our report? Rom. 10.16 and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? Joh. 12.38  2  For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3  He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4  ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: Mt. 8.17 yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 1 Pet. 2.24  6  All we like sheep have gone astray; 1 Pet. 2.25 we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7  ¶ He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, Rev. 5.6 and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8  He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: Acts 8.32, 33 for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9  And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 1 Pet. 2.22  10  ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11  He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12  Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors: Mk. 15.28 · Lk. 22.37 and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. PS - The Bartleby website is great for providing a good format plus Biblical references.  If you must copy and paste, copy and paste from a good source.

Top Ten Crimes in the Wisconsin Synod - WELS

Nominate one of these candidates for the WELS Prison Ministry post.

Reader:

This is from WELS's Meditations, March-May 2014, for Monday, 17 March 2014.  The howler is in the second column which reads:  

"No matter what you did yesterday -- or failed to do -- and no matter what you will do tomorrow, God has forgiven you."

Now, try saying that and putting in a sin from the second table of the Law.  Were I to say, for example, that I committed adultery yesterday and I'm going to do it tomorrow, God has forgiven me.  Somehow, that doesn't make sense.  Nor would it were I to say "murder" or theft" or anything other sin, "big" or "little."  I'm not sure if this is an example of UOJ or just the inability to think or perhaps a combination of both -- a "bifecta"?  This is the pap that is peddled in Meditations -- and remember, this is the stuff that goes unfiltered into the homes of the unsuspecting.

I.

Arizona Lutheran Academy (WELS) teacher Al Just stabbed his wife to death in bed and pleaded not-guilty. He was convicted, even though the Martin Luther College president vouched for him, and a busload of WELS drones came to cheer him on. Al Just married his children's babysitter when he was in the Big House. She saw the light and divorced him later.

“Dear Greg Jackson,

Normally I would just ignore your Website exaggerated comments built on hearsay, but because the comments made concerning Al Just were personal I need to respond.

It saddens me and troubles me that even though you have no firsthand knowledge of the Al Just case involving the death of his wife, Sharon, you pass a judgment of guilty. It's interesting to me
that Pastor Lloyd Huebner and a large host of collegues [sic], neighbors and relatives believed Al when he said he was innocent and they went to testify on his behalf. They knew Al and took him at his word and so they defended him and spoke well of him. Also, interesting to me is the fact that Sharon's parents also testified on behalf of their son-in-law even though he was accused of killing
their daughter. They too knew Al and took him at his word and so they also defended him and spoke well of him. While none of these people could see Al's heart they believed his word regardless of the verdict of guilty of second degree murder that was passed down by the jury.

Since I believe you also are not able to see a man's heart, and that you do not have first hand knowledge of Al or the incident I don't see how you can pass any judgment at all. The most you can do is offer an opinion or make a guess or speculate based on stories, second hand reports, etc. To imply that Al is guilty and to refer to him as "good old Al" is breaking the 8th commandment. I base that judgment on what you wrote. My judgemnt [sic] is based on fact and not hearsay. For this you need to repent.

I am...
Duane Rodewald
Dean of Students at Michigan Lutheran Seminary in Saginaw, MI
and nephew of Al Just."

--
Ex-WELS Comment about Rodewald's email:

I think Duane's comments prove one of the points you are trying to make.  First, the courts passed judgement on Al Just yet Duane implies that you are not qualified to relay the story because "you didn't have first hand knowledge."  Attempted guilt trip.  Second, Duane implies that the opinion of Al's buddy Huebner and his MLC students that believe Al, Al's relatives that believe Al and even his parents in law that believe Al trumps the opinion of the jury because "they knew Al."  It's not like a liar is going to call upon people who don't buy their manure. Third, Duane contradicts himself by going off point with the "knowing the heart" statement.  Seriously, how does Al's buddy Huebner and his MLC students, Al's relatives and even his parents in law know his heart well enough to testify on his behalf.  Can we all examine hearts or not OR is only Al's alliance qualified because they are on Al's side and believe his word as if Al was Jesus Christ himself?  Then Duane finishes with the WELS attempted power play by calling you to repent.  Or in other words, stop bringing the WELS to light.

I guess not all WELS called workers get to be judged on earth by a jury of their biased non-objective friends.

It's vintage WELS through and through.  The only people qualified to have an opinion are members of the alliance.  The facts of the case are not true because the alliance said so.  Anyone outside the alliance who disagrees is wrong.  It's a liars paradise.

John 16: 1-3 & 2 Thessalonians 2: 11-12.  

In Christ,

Name Witheld

[GJ - Al Just's in-laws and the MLC president realized that Al lied to them. They could not figure out that a woman does not roll over on a steak knife 27 times in bed, bleeding to death? That is how blinded WELS members and leaders are.]

II.

Pastor William Tabor did not pull the trigger, but he "aimed the gun," using his mistress to murder his wife at the Salem, Milwaukee parsonage. WELS let him take another call and move out of state, to Escanaba, Michigan. His personnel files "disappeared," but various pastors know his non-WELS congregation warned the sect not to accept Tabor - a known adulterer - as a WELS pastor. His mistress went to the Big House, but Tabor never served time in prison.

                                                III.

WELS Pastor Matthew Luetke was arrested for possessing and distributing child pornography recently.

 IV.

As of May 20th, 2014 - this was Hochmuth's profile on LinkedIn.

Joel Hochmuth was in charge of public relations for WELS when the FBI raided his home and WELS headquarters. They found hundreds of man/boy rape videos and graphics.

WELS Synod President immediately absolved Hochmuth, who then pleaded not-guilty and hired by chance the most expensive attorney in Wisconsin. How did that happen?

Schroeder and Hochmuth wrote a joint letter regretting ELCA's decision to accept homosexual ordination and marriage. In fact, WELS has homosexual pastors and knows all about it. Schroeder's response to someone informing him about about an active homosexual pastor was - "Write a letter."

V.

District President Ed Werner Appealed to the State Supreme Court of South Dakota

"On April 16, 1990, a complaint was filed charging Werner with six counts of sexual contact with a child under the age of 16 (a violation of SDCL 22-22-7) and two counts of attempted sexual contact with a child under the age of sixteen (a violation of SDCL 22-22-7 and 22-4-1). An amended complaint dated May 22, 1990, added an additional charge of sexual contact with a child under the age of sixteen. All of the complaints alleged the sexual contact between Werner and the young female parishioners occurred during church-related activities during the period from October 1987 to March of 1990.

The testimony elicited from these [other] women indicated that Werner had sexual contact with young women of his parish for every year from 1962 to 1990 with the exception of 1983 and 1986."

VI.

 Pastor Adrian was given a call to St. Paul Lutheran Church in Columbus, Ohio. He returned the call.

VII.

The congregation has an important place in Lutheran and regional history.
The organ is magnificent, kept in good repair.

WELS stole this property and the congregation's endowment. The same scoundrels kicked the congregation and pastor out of WELS for a minor (but childish) prank many years ago. The pastor apologized and paid damages for tagging the property of another WELS congregation, but that was not enough. The DP kicked them out.

Apparently WELS was furious that the congregation
was inviting people to the church for worship and organ concerts,
so they stole it and closed it up - just like the Episcopalian Presiding Bishop.

---

Pastor Leon Piepenbrink was convicted of multiple felonies in slipping a large chunk of change away from the WELS. Great software you installed, Mark Schroeder. It cost almost as much as this one theft, which happened long afterward the controls were established. Controls? - that did not happen before, did it? Why aren't those men in prison?

 Pastor Leon Piepenbrink was convicted of multiple felonies in slipping a large chunk of change away from the WELS. Great software you installed, Mark Schroeder. It cost almost as much as this one theft, which happened long afterward the controls were established. Controls? - that did not happen before, did it? Why aren't those men in prison?

He was "helping the needy" and only got one year in the hoosegow.

Former WELS Member - On Ski, Glende, and the WELS Leadership

Greg,

What boggles my mind about the WELS is the near opposite approach to dealing with sin among the leadership.  Their words and actions mimic those of the Pharisees, teachers of the law, ect.  Nearly everything they say, do and write looks like it is for image control.  None of the apostles hid their personal pasts nor did the cover up for each other.  They did the opposite.  They were the first to acknowledge their failures and those of their brethren leadership.  Compare that to the WELS where the leadership denies their failures and punishes others for exposing them.  

Virtue Online Shows What Happens with Conservative Bishops

Collegiality should only go so far.

WAYNE, PA: Bishop Nazir-Ali Weighs in on Anglican Communion, CofE, Islam and ACNA

An Exclusive Interview with the former Bishop of Rochester (UK) and now Director of the Oxford Centre for Training, Research, Advocacy and Dialogue

By David W. Virtue DD
www.virtueonline.org
May 7, 2014

Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali is the first non-white diocesan bishop in the Church of England. He holds joint citizenships in Pakistan and Britain. He has multiple doctorates both earned and honorary. He has authored 11 books, the most recent being, Triple Jeopardy for the West: Aggressive Secularism, Radical Islamism and Multiculturalism. He has taught at numerous colleges and universities around the world and is the former General Secretary of the Church Missionary Society. His travels take him to countries where Christians are being persecuted for their faith. He was in the US recently as guest speaker at the recently formed CANA East Synod, which was held at Christ Church Anglican on the mainline in Wayne, Pennsylvania.

I sat down with Bishop Michael and over dinner plied him with questions about the state of the Church of England, the Communion, the Anglican Church in North America, Islam and much more. He is the perfect guest and very undemanding. He sips thoughtfully, thinks long and hard before he speaks, never raises his voice and displays a humility one rarely sees among wearers of The Purple Shirt. If one detects a certain sadness in the man, it is not about himself, but the direction the Anglican Communion is taking, and, of course, his own beloved Church of England. One senses he carries the weight of the church on his shoulders. He is an advocate for the poor and persecuted. He will not publicly criticize the reigning Archbishop of Canterbury, but he will say that the Anglican Communion has been going through a disastrous phase since 2003.

Many of us from "across the pond" believe he should have been the next Archbishop of Canterbury following in the footsteps of George Carey, but it was not to be. A scurrilous secular press did him in and Dr. Rowan Williams, an Affirming Catholic, took the helm. His reign was tumultuous and nearly ruinous for the Anglican Communion. While his successor Justin Welby is an evangelical, he is a theological lightweight compared to Bishop Nazir-Ali. 

I put a number of questions to Bishop Michael.

VOL: Since you resigned your position as Bishop of Rochester, you have become England’s most outspoken bishop and critic in England’s Culture Wars. Was that your intention when you stepped down? Did you feel you could not speak openly as a sitting bishop?

NAZIR-ALI: In 1994 George Carey and I were publicly attacked physically by the gay lobby when we were at a meeting of Evangelicals in Westminster. Then I was in the battle over the lowering of the age of consent. In the battle over civil partnerships, we defeated the government on the floor in the House of Lords on an amendment which widened the Civil Partnerships bill. Rather than the bill mimicking marriage, it included siblings and others who lived together for various reasons. At first the government said it was about justice. When we defeated them they said that it was really about gay rights.

I was on the steering committee when Lambeth 1:10. When the HOB of the CofE issued its pastoral letter on civil partnerships, I could not subscribe to this. I wrote an ad clerum to my diocese saying why I could not. Even though lay people could not be disciplined over homosexual activity, I could not endorse a relationship that the law mimics marriage to legitimize.

I did not attend the 2008 Lambeth Conference, but I did attend the first GAFCON conference in Jerusalem. You have to ask if you can declare the whole faith as the need arises; if you are always constrained by collegiality. Collegiality is to be highly valued but sometimes there is a higher loyalty. You can’t remain silent if that is under threat. GAFCON would not compromise on the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

VOL: On the global scene it is being said that Christianity, the world’s first global religion, will devolve over time into two forces – The Roman Catholic Church and Pentecostalism. Liberalism will die out having run its course. Do you think this is an accurate picture? If so, where will Anglicanism fit into this picture?

NAZIR-ALI: I think that is true. I would also add a certain kind of conservative evangelicalism will survive - the Tim Kellers of this world. The mainline protestant denominations will do their Cheshire cat act. What will survive may be an orthodox form of Anglicanism which is allied to Pentecostalism, conservative Anglicans or the Ordinariates. I can’t see mainline protestant denominations surviving. They will not be influential.

Pentecostalism does not have a global voice but it is bringing about transformation on the ground. Sociologist David Martin, perhaps the greatest living British sociologist of religion, says that when people are converted they change personally, in the family and at work. A new cycle of virtue brings about socio economic change. In Latin America Pentecostalism is doing what Liberation Theology failed to do.

VOL: Do you have any misgivings about Pentecostalism?

NAZIR-ALI: Within the Christian world, my fear about Pentecostalism is that there can be a lack of biblical depth.

VOL: It was reported recently in The Telegraph that China (despite persecution) is on course to becoming the “world's most Christian nation” within 15 years. That the number of Christians in Communist China is growing so steadily that by 2030 it could have more churchgoers than America. If this is true, what are the implications for Anglicanism? Do you know of any active Anglican witness in China today?

NAZIR-ALI: This is absolutely correct. The rate of growth is exponential - 100 million plus. Given the demography, it will continue to grow. There is no Anglican Church in China today, it has died out. “The Holy Catholic Church” is now subsumed into the Three Self Church which is recognized by the government. The Three Self churches are non-conformist in pattern, as are, of course, the much larger ‘house churches.’ Anglicanism survives in Hong Kong, of course, and it may spread again into the rest of China.

VOL: Anglicanism is still growing at a fast clip in Africa, largely through aggressive evangelism. Do you see that continuing or do you see it leveling off? Could African Anglicans be siphoned off into Pentecostalism?

NAZIR ALI: Anglicans are being siphoned off into African independent churches of which there are some 6000 denominations. Many of the leaders are former Anglicans. The Anglican Church in Africa was not doing what they are doing now. Two Nigerian Anglican Primates ago, Archbishop Joseph Adetiloye appointed the first missionary bishops. The truth is it will level off, they aren’t the people to evangelize. Thirty years ago there was a large animist population. Now many are Christians. Nigerians are sending missionaries to the Cameroons and Niger and further afield.

VOL: Homosexuality in Africa, particularly in Nigeria and Uganda, has led to strong condemnations by western pansexual Anglican leaders and some political heads of state. In your opinion, how should Anglican leaders have responded to their countries laws on this hot button issue?

NAZIR ALI: There are a number of things to be said. The reason those countries have passed these laws was initially provocation by the west, through aid programs to recognize gay rights. So it’s a reaction. As far as I know, church leaders have tried to moderate the reaction. In Uganda, the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches have tried to moderate what the government proposed and have succeeded. On the substantive question of criminalizing these things, it is not fruitful to do so and it is driving the situation underground. The matter should be dealt with pastorally. Christians should stand for equal civil and political rights for everybody, yet stand for the truth of God’s Word and His will for us in how we are made and saved.

VOL: Many of us here in the US feel that England is quietly being hammered from within by a growing, strident Islam pleading for Sharia Law in big cities not totally in control by the British Government. Do you see this as a real threat? Could there be more bombings in England such as you have seen?

NAZIR-ALI: The basic problem of Britain is aggressive secularism which has marginalized the Biblical tradition and created a vacuum that all sorts of things can fill. I had alerted everyone to the “no go” areas in Britain’s cities years ago and got terribly harassed with threats to my life and those of my family. We have been under police protection. At that time, I received 1,200 letters by ordinary people from different walks of life, with most saying I was right. In Sharia operated areas, there are signs saying "no short dresses, no alcohol and no gays." Sometimes the government removes the signs.

There is now public knowledge of attempts to take over a number of schools. There has been an infiltration into local authorities. Islamist movements have tried to take over one authority quite successfully.

VOL: Can Sharia Law be blended into British Common Law? 

NAZIR-ALI: You can’t recognize Sharia laws in terms of public law, because western public law is based on equality under the law. Islamic scholars recognize there are inequalities, between Muslim and non-Muslim, between women and men, slave and free.

Archbishop Rowan Williams and the then Lord Chief Justice talked about ‘softer’ aspects of family law, but this is a myth. In the question of divorce, a woman is not equal to a man. There is the issue of the custody of children. A recent case was an appeal of a Lebanese woman who did not want to be deported as, under Sharia Law her son would be given to her husband. She won her case because the judge ruled that this would be a violation of her fundamental rights. In the issue of inheritance, a non-Muslim cannot inherit at all. Under Sharia Law, a woman can only inherit half of what a man inherits.

On the question you raised about future bombings, a large number of born and bred European and British Muslims have been going to fight in Syria. They will come back radicalized.

VOL: All the indicators are that Christianity in England is slowly dying with about 1.1 million attendees and not all of these are evangelical. Is there any possibility of the CofE being reformed and renewed or will that renewal come from independent evangelical churches?

NAZIR-ALI: The 1.1 million refers only to the Church of England. What is happening? The British Social Attitude survey revealed that in 1981, 47% of the population identified itself as Anglican, now that is about 20%. About 10% said they were Roman Catholic that is still the same today. 17% are non- conformist, that is still the same today. All the decline has been in Anglicanism though the non-conformists are not now mainline denominations. The main growth though is in black led churches. One church, the Kingsway International Christian Centre (KICC) has 35,000 members with its pastor Matthew Ashimolowo coming from Nigeria.

The truth is there are a number of dioceses on the margins. Recently there were three gatherings of the largest Anglican churches where the cut off was 350 adult membership (most were between 450-500). Out of 150 who qualified, 140 were evangelical and they are still around. The real question is how will they survive with any influence or will they survive as ghettos. When will people start voting with their feet? I don’t know; it depends. The deeper truth is that the evangelical strength is not represented in the decision making bodies of the church. Why are Evangelical leaders not being appointed? Why are faithful, biblical pastors marginalized?

VOL: I am being told that the next generation of Anglican leaders now in seminaries are evangelical, but to succeed they may have to belong to the Anglican Mission in England (AMiE) and not part of the established church. Is that possible?

NAZIR-ALI: Only a proportion are being trained for the ordained ministry in seminaries, others train in part time courses, and not many of those courses being taught are orthodox in theology. Most of the seminaries in England are not turning out solid evangelicals. Many are mixed with evangelicals and liberals. 

VOL: I gather you met with the African and South American Anglican Primates in London and were in part responsible for the communique they delivered to the Anglican world. Does this indicate a turning point for Anglicanism in general and for the Church of England in particular?

NAZIR-ALI: What GAFCON needs to do is to develop itself into a viable ecclesial movement. We need to create a relationship between churches. ACNA is a good example. To recognize a church is an ecclesial act. At the moment, what we need with GAFCON is to meet in between the primates metings which meets once a year. We need an effective body that continues the work of GAFCON of clergy, bishops and lay people. GAFCON must be owned at the grass roots worldwide.

VOL: The Communique said this: “We are particularly concerned about the state of lay and clerical discipline in the Church of England. The House of Bishops’ guidance that those in same sex marriages should be admitted to the full sacramental life of the church is an abandonment of pastoral discipline. While we welcome their clear statement that clergy must not enter same sex marriage, it is very concerning that this discipline is, apparently, being openly disregarded. We pray for the recovery of a sense of confidence in the whole of the truth Anglicans are called to proclaim, including that compassionate call for repentance to which we all need to respond in our different ways.” 

If there is no discipline with regard to priests entering into gay marriage with the tacit support of the Church of England (or turn a blind eye), how will these Anglican primates and the GAFCON bishops respond, do you think? Recently a priest was married, but he is a chaplain and not a parish priest, so it looks as though his bishop will do nothing.

NAZIR-ALI: It is nonsense to say a bishop cannot take away his license. He still serves under the bishop. It is not right to say you can’t do anything about it. 

VOL: What role can the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby play?

NAZIR-ALI: He cannot step in unless he decides to discipline the bishop. A complaint needs to be laid against the bishop for not acting. There are procedures.

VOL: As I read daily stories from England, it seems to me that Britain’s police force is programmed to arrest anyone who dares publicly criticize either homosexuality or Islam. A man was arrested in England recently for publicly quoting Winston Churchill and recently an American evangelist was arrested (and later released) for preaching the gospel. Whatever happened to free speech in England and England’s long standing tolerance for dissenting views?

NAZIR-ALI: There is a long history of recognizing conscience in England. The recent spate of hate speech and equality legislation does not sufficiently recognize conscience, although the Christian Legal Center does get people out, they still have to go through the humiliation of being put into a cell etc.. The (Lord) Carey amendment inserted some safeguards. In 2003, a bishop told a radio program that therapy had helped some with unwanted same-sex attractions. His remarks were considered a hate crime and he had a visit from the Police.

VOL: I notice that on occasion, Lord Carey speaks up about the state of things in England and seems very pessimistic about England’s future and the Church of England. Do you share his pessimism?

NAZIR-ALI: Black led churches are flourishing. Immigration and refugees are contributing to the growth of the church. Community churches are growing. The difficulty is with mainline protestant denominations. They are all dying.

VOL: Here in the U.S. the Anglican Church in North American (ACNA) is up and running as part of the realignment going on in Anglicanism in North America. It stands in clear opposition to the teachings and practices of the Episcopal Church. Do you think Archbishop Justin Welby will ever recognize it as a legitimate province? Should he?

NAZIR-ALI: I think the real question for ACNA is whether they are recognized by god-fearing Anglicans in GAFCON and the Global South. The mechanism for recognition in the Anglican Communion is to go through the Anglican Consultative Council and I doubt they would recognize the ACNA as the Episcopal Church provides most of the funding for the ACC.

It is more important to be in a living relationship in communion with other faithful Anglican Christians than with those who do not share the same faith.

Athanasius was not concerned with communion with Constantinople if Constantinople was not orthodox in faith. If Athanasius had compromised, we would all be Arians to day.

I think it is very unlikely that the ABC will recognize the ACNA in any formal sense. I think he will recognize the ACNA as an ecumenical partner. He believes the ACNA must reconcile with The Episcopal Church. However I don’t think it matters. At the Nairobi GAFCON II conference the ABC came and he received communion from ACNA Archbishop Bob Duncan. What does that tell you? I thought it was excellently organized.

VOL: What sort of personal opposition do you face on a daily basis in England? Do you still need to have Police protection for you and your family?

NAZIR-ALI: When something needs to be said, I say it. We trust in God and he has kept me and my family safe. I received death threats in Pakistan in the 1980s and in Britain in 2008. Twenty years later, I am still receiving them.

VOL: Is revival possible in England?

NAZIR-ALI: It is possible to have a biblical revival in the Church of England. Whether biblically minded Christians will be allowed to or have the courage to and claim the church for themselves is the big question. For the moment, the liberals and revisionists have a good grip on the bureaucracy and decision-making operations. They mostly don’t mind orthodox people as long as they don’t make a fuss.

Speaking freely, I do hope the next 5 to 7 years of ACNA are times of growth and consolidation. I think we must make sure that this is a time for greater recognition of ACNA in more and more parts of the Anglican Communion.

VOL: Thank you bishop.

END

Most Likely - Rolf Preus is George Mueller - Evidence Ripped from SpenerQuest and the Net

"One does not simply change synods - and names -
every few years.

George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1463 Registered: 11-2012

Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2014 - 11:12 am:       Let me explain what is going on here. Robert Preus was Missouri. David Webber is Wisconsin. But Webber wants credibility in Missouri circles so he clings to a Missouri theologian who will give him that credibility. It’s kind of like how the ELDoNA men insist that Preus agreed with their denial of objective justification. He didn’t, but it helps them persuade the unwary. Now class, pay attention! Watch for the bait and switch. The bait is “grades of ministers.” “Grades of ministers” refers to the configuration of offices that the Lutherans inherited from the established church in the sixteenth century. It had to be reinterpreted by the Lutherans. The papist distinction between bishops, priests, and deacons was unbiblical. It militated against the gospel. The gospel requires an equality of ministers by divine right. Still, the Lutherans were quite conservative. They retained much of the structures they inherited, but they were always intent on bringing everything into harmony with the gospel. There can be no “grades of the ministry” that exist by divine right. That’s the critical point. I’m sure that David Webber will agree. Now let’s bring this “grades of ministers” into the twenty first century and here is where it gets interesting. First, let me briefly distinguish between the Wisconsin and Missouri positions on the ministry. Missouri teaches that God instituted the pastoral office as the form of the office of the Word that he gave to his church. All ministers of the Word have the office of preaching, teaching, and administering the sacraments. Wisconsin teaches that God did not institute any species of office, but instituted rather a genus of offices from which many species may be derived. Thus, the pastors are in a more comprehensive form of the office and schoolteachers are in a more limited form of the office. There are potentially dozens of forms of office, each of which is as divinely established as any other. They all exist within the divinely established genus of offices. Are you with me so far? Class? Wake up, Helen! This is important! Thank you. Now pay attention! Okay, so the bait is “grades of ministers.” It’s there in the historical documents. Preus’s essay is rooted in those historical documents. Preus, who is Missouri, interprets the historical documents in a Missouri fashion. Well, duh! What else is he going to do? Webber, who is Wisconsin, interprets those documents in a Wisconsin fashion. Again, duh! What do you expect? But here’s what happens. Webber tries to push Preus out of Missouri into Wisconsin. Oh, yes, he does! Now listen carefully and see for yourself. (Helen! Stop snoring and pay attention!) Let me quote Webber and you will see for yourself. He writes above: So, while theological professors (such as Melanchthon) were not parish pastors, to whom the full range of pastoral duties were entrusted, their position of responsibility was understood to be among the “grades of ministers” that the church, in its freedom, may establish within the divinely-established preaching office. This point was also a recurring theme of Robert Preus’s treatise on the Divine Call. Do you see what Webber has done? The “grades of ministers” of the 16th century now exist “within the divinely-established preaching office.” That is to say, within the genus of offices (Wisconsin), not species of office (Missouri) that God established. And this, Webber notes, is Preus’s teaching! Et, voila! Robert Preus has become Wisconsin! That’s a neat trick, to be sure. And there is just enough evidence to sell it to an unwary and rather uninformed readership. After all, what Preus said about theological professors being teachers of the church doesn’t fit neatly within the Missouri paradigm, does it? Well, then we’ll have to put it in the Wisconsin paradigm! Take your pick. This pigeon hole or that one? Rev. Webber was kind enough to provide us with a handy link to Robert Preus’s essay. So class, if you are still with me (Helen, quit shooting spit-balls at Rick!), check out what Preus says in the essay David Webber has linked under F (beginning on page ten). He subsumes all of the various titles (which in Webber’s system would be specific forms of the generic office) under the same species of office! And guess what that office is? You got it! It’s what we nowadays call the pastoral office. How Missouri of him! Oh yeah? (Webber retorts) What about how Preus talks about a theological professor? He’s got a call! He’s in the office! He’s not a parish pastor! He doesn’t have an altar! He doesn’t baptize! So explain that! And there you have it, boys and girls. Welcome to the Johnny Cochran school of theology: “If it doesn’t fit; you must acquit.” Toss out the baby, the bathwater, the bathtub, and the bathroom and adopt the Wisconsin teaching of innumerable forms bubbling up from the collective consciousness of religious people. And claim a Missourian (Robert Preus) for your side. It just might work!

***

GJ - What is the evidence? He calls Webber "WELS", knowing Jay is ELS. That would be a big insult for an ELS parson. Both of them were ELS, just as both of them were Ft. Wayne grads.

Rolf specializes in personal attacks because he knows so little about doctrine. He is a bully while Jay is a sniper.

Rolf's big argument on this post is based on his father. Previously, all his posts began, "My father, Dr. Robert Preus..." Rolf realized that his fellow skunk-patch denizens had short-attention spans.

The post is very much Missouri versus WELS, which is why Pope John the Malefactor kicked him out of the Little Sect on the Prairie. Rolf took the Missouri side, even though Walther was dictatorial pope, because... it's a thing in Missouri.

Rolf formed the Rolf Synod from those who left  the ELS, but they parted company with him rather soon. However, Jay has been their resident expert on UOJ, which must be very annoying. Whenever a Preus boy is born, the birth announcements read "Habemus papam!"

Seminex - the first gay Lutheran seminary -
was founded upon UOJ.