Grumps Asks about Shrinkers Working

UOJ Stormtroopers need to rest up to do more planning.


grumpy has left a new comment on your post "Shrinkers Against Working Hard":

Here's a question...how many of your pastors show up for work days when your church has a clean-up, do some yard work, paint, etc. work day?

Some have said that their pastor's are usually busy with their families on those days, while members who also have families and work full time come almost every time there is a call.

When at prep school (MLS), freshmen and sophmore were required to shovel the walks and driveways of the professors. Sometimes these professors had children (teenagers) who had their walks shoveled by their dorm living classmates.

Is there a tendency for called workers to consider themselves exempt from the lowly grubby work of the church?

I have seen cases both ways (won't say which seems to be the more COMMON way), I was curious as to how other churches perceive this.

Grumps

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GJ - The Sausage Factory paid students to mow the lawns of the professors. Same deal - the professors had plenty of kids to do that.

By the way - this comes from someone on the Sausage board - no school is safe from the money crisis. Mequon is sitting on some mighty fine residential property, which was once a farm of some 165 acres. Mequon is a wealthy suburb and the seminary is out of money, more or less.

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grumpy has left a new comment on your post "Grumps Asks about Shrinkers Working":

Just an addendum Dr. Jackson...no pay was made to MLS preppies...it was just one more tradition...

I had no qualms about it when it was for an eldery professor without resident able bodied children.

For some others...well....

Grumps

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GJ - The tradition reminds me of dwarf tossing. Who thought up free work for the profs? The students?

Shrinkers Sermonize on Their Pietism

PETA endorsement


Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "What the Shrinkers Hate, Part II":

The enthusiasm of the (W)ELS would not have grown such deep and wide spread roots if they hadn't rejected the efficacy of Christ's Word.

From a UOJ/Pietistic [BM - my opinion] sermon given by a WELS Pastor on June 6, 2010 "I can go from door to door throughout the Seattle area telling everyone I meet about Jesus but it wouldn’t do even a fraction of the good that you are able to do by sharing your faith with your family and friends."

Sermon
http://www.htlc-wa.org/ministryinc/filedownload.aspx?master_sec_id=140004986&sec_id=140004986&libfolder=140047070&filename=Microsoft Word - 060610 Sermon.pdf

Sermon Website location
http://www.htlc-wa.org/site/cpage.asp?sec_id=140004986&cpage_id=140014787&secure=&dlyear=0&dlcat=0

Want another example?

***

GJ - Sure.

Shrinkers Against Working Hard

The cross in a cup of coffee is the perfect symbol for Church and Change in WELS.

bruce-church (https://bruce-church.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "What the Shrinkers Hate, Part II":

Hi Dr. Jackson, You asked for links about the shrinkers making comments against canvassing and handing out fliers in the comments section. It's been a while since I had these conversations, so they are hard to find (if they even exist anymore online). But here's a good example from Bailing Water in 2007 (below). I just said that our pastor refused to do any evangelism citing money problems, but then he refused to hand out flyers or even have the members hand out flyers because it wasn't a recommended CG method, probably because going door to door isn't "cool." Anyway, one CG guy sneered that I should have just handed out leaflets rather than bother the pastor about doing evangelism, and another said I was fixated on it. I guess that's the CG way of saying anyone who wants to do evangelism the old-fashioned way has a psychiatric problem (or is lazy or cheap or whatever smear their Old Man can think of off the cuff):
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http://bailingwater.blogspot.com/2007/11/what-now.html

excerpts:

Anonymous aaid...
Your difficulties with talking about new approaches to ministry simply does not recognize that methods can change, while the Word we proclaim remains unchanged. (For example, door to door canvassing in outreach simply doesn't work anymore in many communtities. We can reach so many more today via the Internet and other media with Law and Gospel. But to even discuss such newer methods is evidence of the infiltration of false doctrine in our midst, according to you and your blog.)

Anonymous said...

Hey Bruce--

Just think of how much precious canvassing you could have done on your own with the time you spent jerking your pastor around by the pocketbook. Just imagine what it would be like if laypeople spent their time talking about the Savior with their friends and coworkers instead of griping about how the pastor isn't doing any evangelism.
November 12, 2007 5:35 PM

bruce-church (https://bruce-church.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "What the Shrinkers Hate, Part II":

cont'd from previous post:

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UP said...
Also, I am not against a church advertising or canvassing, but I don't understand why you are so focused on those.
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Anonymous said...

Actually canvassing really doesn't work. Think about it--who canvasses? Annoying salespeople and Mormons. I don't want my church being associated with either of those groups. In my experience there's only one thing that really works: members talking to their friends and coworkers and neighbors about the good news. Everything else is a far, far second. Oh, and by the way, I wouldn't be so quick to pit church growth against canvassing. Canvassing was popularized by the church growthers.
November 11, 2007 10:04 PM
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Anonymous said...

Bruce Church has no idea what he's talking about!
November 11, 2007 10:21 PM
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Anonymous said...

"Funny. That´s what the last pastor said before we got rid of him--about this very issue. Our new pastor canvases in addition to other activities, and he`s doing well."

Pastor as lackey? That's a problem with the WELS doctrine of church and ministry. If I'm in the Madison area I will definitely avoid your congregation.
November 12, 2007 6:49 AM
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Anonymous said...

As someone who has been on Travel-Canvas-Witness trips from MLC, I agree that canvassing does not work. After leaving thousands of fliers and talking to hundreds of people in a week for some mission congregation, you know how many new people showed up for worship on Sunday? None. Ever. A lot of money and time went into sending us to "help" the pastors of these missions and not one new person ever set foot in the church because of it.

At the congregation of which I'm currently a member, they do not do canvassing but are growing. Many of the Lutheran churches in the area have chosen to act like Methodists, Baptists, and Pentecostals. New converts are not stupid and see through the shallowness. Many, especially young families, have joined our congregation BECAUSE they can hear the Gospel preached and receive the Sacrament of the Altar every Sunday in a high liturgical setting.
November 12, 2007 9:21 AM

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bruce-church (https://bruce-church.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Shrinkers Against Working Hard":

One problem is the CG people only think of instant results, it seems. One commented on BW that he took a trip from MLC to hand out flyers on a mission trip somewhere, and on Sunday they got zero results. However, when I hand out a flyers (which I've done), I'm just trying to raise the visibility of the church in an area, knowing nothing may come of it for week, months and years. It's similar to having your cross lit on your church. It's not going to cause people to break down your church doors, but over the years it will bring some people in, though they may not even be conscious of that reason for coming there as opposed to somewhere else, or nowhere. At least they can't say I never saw your church until I looked it up in the Yellow Pages, and then plugged the address into my GPS and drove over.

***

GJ - People will drive 50 miles or more for a real Lutheran church because there are so few around. The Gospel produces the fruit of the Spirit, according to God's will. The need for instant results will always cause people to seek fad solutions, just as steroids will build big muscles while making other things very small.

What the Shrinkers Hate, Part II

The Shrinkers despise any congregation doing well because of its traditional Lutheran message and worship.

Their loathing of real outreach is revealed in their mockery of congregations doing what they cannot, even though the others lack the funds greedily absorbed by the Church and Money Changers. How much loot does a congregation like Patterson's need? The parish is affluent and well established. Why it is being subsidized at the expense of others?

The alleged growthers hate their brother ministers. Ski announced that A-Town was finally going to have a church that made Jesus real and relevant. He moved in with the big bucks, almost next door to another WELS congregation, in spite of protests and hard feelings engendered by his arrogance.

They hate the Lutheran name, doing everything possible to get rid of it. That is not because the name is an adiaphoron. The hatred comes from the Fuller/Willow Creek dogma. They hate Lutheran doctrine and loathe Lutheran worship, so they reject the Lutheran name. One WELS pastor conceded, "I will use the liturgy, once a month, but I will go outside and puke afterwards."

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wildcard (http://wildcard.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "What the Shrinkers Hate, Part II":

WELS pastors who despise preaching and teaching like to blame membership shrinkage on the word Lutheran. It must be the word Lutheran because it certainly cannot be them. At least they will never own up to it.

***

GJ - Pastors? The synod leaders got rid of Lutheran on the magazine title page (now reversed), the main hymnal title, Lutherans For Life, and as many missions as possible. Try to find Lutheran on Time of Grace.

Pope John the Malefactor Was Just Re-Elected: Little Sect on the Prairie - "Can't Teach and Can't Preach"

This pope is another world traveler.

From a reader:

"Pope John The Malefactor was just elected to a third 4 year term at President of the ELS."

Another reader expressed hopes that the Holy Father would be removed, adding, "We don't know what to do with him. He can't preach and he can't teach."

That is why the world is full of mini-popes.

"Apt to teach" is not a requirement in the ELS ministry, and definitely not at the Little School on the Prairie.

Some More ELCA People Will Be Fired Soon

ELCA Bishop Gary is just like the WELS DPs,
and he was re-elected too.
He had to start five rump congregations to replace
ones fleeing his tender mercies and gay agenda.

ELCA NEWS SERVICE
June 21, 2010

ELCA Leaders to Revise 2010 Churchwide Budget, to Create Restructuring Plan

CHICAGO (ELCA) -- Leaders of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) will prepare a revised 2010 budget and spending plan for consideration in August, and they will create a plan to restructure the churchwide organization in 2011 in response to continuing declines in income, said the Rev. M. Wyvetta Bullock, ELCA executive for administration, in a June 21 e-mail to churchwide staff.

Bullock wrote that the churchwide organization's Administrative Team, the Cabinet of Executives, ELCA Church Council, the ELCA Conference of Bishops and other partners will work with the presiding bishop and staff on the restructuring plan.

In her message to staff, Bullock wrote that she wanted "to inform you of challenges we are facing related to the work of the churchwide organization as we move forward in mission with decreased financial resources. I also want to let you know how we plan to respond to those changes."

"As of the end of May, mission support income continues to decline," Bullock wrote. "You may recall that mission support represents approximately 80 percent of our churchwide organization's general operating budget." Mission support is income sent by congregations through synods to the churchwide organization.

"We anticipate preparing a revised 2010 budget and spending plan for action by the ELCA Church Council at its August meeting. The reduced budget plan will incorporate the underspending plan already implemented earlier this year," she wrote. The council will meet by conference call Aug. 4, she said.

"As we plan for 2011, given the depth of the changes necessary, we will be creating a plan to restructure the churchwide organization to align our work with anticipated income," Bullock wrote.

"Over the past 12-18 months we have faced significant changes in the churchwide organization. We are also mindful that challenges are being faced by synods, congregations, institutions, agencies and ecumenical partners. I continue to be thankful for your partnership and commitment to serve this church. Our prayers for one another and this church are needed as we walk together in the days ahead," she added.

She explained that the reasons for the income declines include a 30-year trend in declining revenues, the struggling U.S. economy and declines in congregational income due to the 2009 ELCA Churchwide Assembly's decisions on human sexuality.

Christina Jackson-Skelton, ELCA treasurer, said in an April 30 report that declines in mission support income in 56 of the ELCA's 65 synods, compared to the first quarter of 2009, "merits careful attention."

"The annual mission support budget for 2010 was reduced by $4.6 million or 7.7 percent from the amount received in 2009," Jackson-Skelton's report said. "The decline of 12.5 percent in the first quarter 2010 compared to the same period in 2009 exceeds the rate anticipated in the budget proposal and is unfavorable to budget by 3.5 percent."

Jackson-Skelton added that in 35 synods, mission support at the end of April was down by more than 10 percent compared to the same period in 2009.

The churchwide organization began its 2010 fiscal year with a current fund spending authorization of $69.3 million, including $55.1 million in mission support funds.

Balance the budget by recycling more?
I love the smell of compost in the morning.

***

GJ - Unfortunately, ELCA is making everyone look wise, prosperous, and confessional.

WELS and Missouri should be saying, "This is where we will be in a few years."

I never expected a migration out of ELCA by entire congregations. Even less did I think bishops would leave. Too bad some of you did not lay bets with me. I would have bet a million that Ken Sauer would never leave, and he is a leader!

I need Scott Jungen's prophesy stone.

Bishop Gary is blowing up his district and getting re-elected to do more. See a pattern?

Deputy Doug Englebrecht was also re-elected.

This just in - Pope John the Malefactor was elected to another term. The Little Sect on the Prairie remains a wholly-owned subsidiary of Church and Change.

Scott Jungen Is a Prophet

"I love the smell of blown up blogs in the morning.
It smells like...victory."

Scott E. Jungen has left a new comment on your post "Brett Meyer Answers":

Wow! Did I call that or what? A blog down in a day. Is that a record? Gee, I was hoping to end up like Church Lady, Brett Meyer and bruce-church. Now my chance is gone.

Scott

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On June 21, 2010, less than 24 hours ago, Scott wrote:

Scott E. Jungen has left a new comment on your post "The Gnats Are Swarming Again: Shrinker Drama Queen...":

I think we have another sputterer here! I notice only 1 person has commented, and that person disagreed with him. He has no followers. It was about as lame as the MLC video. I don't think he's long for the blogosphere.

Keep up the good work Church Lady!

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GJ - Four blogs have been set up to rage against my poor, feeble effort. Four blogs are down hard. All of them have been UOJ and Church Growth.

My secret is using the Sword of the Spirit while they try the heel of their boots.

Ask the DPs To Observe Matthew 18 and the Eighth Commandment

rlschultz has left a new comment on your post "Not Apt To Teach":

The Matthew 18 portion of the "8 and 18 switch" always works the first time around on naive and unsuspecting laity. The problem is that the apostate leaders keep using it, no matter what the circumstances. This prompted one member to jokingly refer to it as the favorite Bible chapter at our former congregation. Here is a seemingly strange coincidence. The circuit pastor recommended a face to face meeting with the pastor and a group of concerned members. The pastor refused to attend, just like Deputy Doug. An elder was there, who attempted to make an audio recording of the meeting. That almost set a lynch mob into motion. Fortunately, no blood was shed. Little did any of our members realize at that time that the improper application of Matthew 18 was synod wide and not relegated to just one congregation.

***

GJ - The District Popes all pretend to be be quivery balls of Jello. They are good at feigning shock, timidity, confusion, forgetfulness to the point of senility. They are quite different behind closed doors. Nothing is too low for them to try. Meddle with the congregation? - their right. Demean the pastor? - no problem. Defend false doctrine? - well, it c-a-n be understood properly. Murder, adultery, and embezzlement? - where did you hear that.

Suddenly, the DP awakens from his bout with old age dementia, swallows a couple of Aricepts, and remembers everything wrong with the questioner - back to his conception. The porcine eyes fill with rage as he recounts every sin, real or imaginary, most of them committed against Holy Mother WELS (such as doubting GA). At the end, this Rev. DP asks, "What was your question again?"

WELS is an abusive sect. Get used to it. Those spared the abuse are the false teachers, unionists, murders, and adulterers. Unfortunately for the protected class, being sheltered is just a rocket down to the Inferno.

Brett Meyer Answers

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Nice To Meat You":

According to the fresh Anonymous blog post the individual is quiting. Giving up and is blaming Pastor Jackson for what he did, "His pattern is similar to that of the devil in this regard: He pokes, prods, and attacks until you lose all sanctified judgment and engage him." "I fell for it. I swore that I wouldn't but I did. It took less than a day. I was a fool for thinking otherwise. I couldn't sleep tonight, so I'm ending it."

I think it's a record, he started a parody blog and before Joe Krohn could become a follower he ended it. I did like the fact that he was using kitteh pictures in his posts.

You know who likes the kittehs Ski? ~ the ladies!

What the Shrinkers Hate: A List Based on Many Years of Publishing

Based on their published comments, the Shrinkers hate:

1. Being quoted.

2. Having their published false doctrine compared to the Dreck of Fuller, Willow Creek, and NorthPoint - their Meccas.

3. Humor.

4. The kitteh photos.

5. Luther quotations.

6. Material from the faithful teachers of Lutheran orthodoxy.

7. Justification by faith.

8. The truth about them, their conferences, their favorite books, their favorite religious leaders.

9. Laity who stand up to them.

10. Criticisms of Pietism and unionism.

Not Apt To Teach

The Matthew 18 excuse, long used by WELS to cover up their crimes against the Word and against their own members, shows the clergy are "not apt to teach." That is a requirement for pastors.

The apostate leaders cleverly demand Matthew 18, and they train the robots at the Sausage Factory to obey these novo-commandments. These wolves do not apply Matthew 18 to themselves. They constantly engage in backbiting to enhance their positions and to protect their fellow felons.

This approach works splendidly to turn false doctrine into synodical dogma, just as Matthew 18 does.

Even if someone is very careful to follow the steps of Matthew 18, the response, "You did it wrong, you black-hearted sinner." That is shared with the entire synod, of course, because of the Matthew 18 escape clause.

So, let us see Matthew 18 in action, even though it does not apply. Ski and Glende were blatantly copying Craig Groeschel in their sermons and proud of it. Glende was going to "save" St. Peter's in Freedom that way. Isn't it funny that the congregation needed to survive after 30 years of the Church Growth Master hisself - Ron Ash, chairman of Church and Change, holder of many synodical titles?

Public false doctrine can be and should be addressed publicly, as Luther taught, and we confess, in the Large Catechism.

False doctrine is not subject to the Matthew 18 rule. Nor does Matthew 18 protect the scandalous lives of criminal pastors.

Using Matthew 18 inappropriately, a group of Northern District WELS people addressed their concerns about false doctrine in a supposed meeting with the District Pope, Deputy Doug Englebrecht.

They had a meeting date set. Oh joy!

They could hash out these problems. WELS triumphant!

But Deputy Doug did not show up. He skipped the meeting and sent a letter. I don't have the letter, but I heard that Doug blamed me.

Can you believe that? He refused to carry out his duties as DP by skipping and blaming me. The district re-elected Doug, who has proven himself "not apt to teach."

For years I have been getting descriptions of the extent of corruption in his district. The facts have not come from pastors but from the laity, who are disgusted with WELS.

Some people think I am rough on the cowards, criminals, and false teachers.

Quoting someone from the distant past, "You serve God your way, and I will serve God His way."

Your way has smoothed the path for apostasy. Church workers can murder without having their names in the synod news. They can run off with millions and flimsy excuses (lies) are broadcast to keep the older people calm. They can turn an allegedly Lutheran group into a discount store for trashy Fuller programs and no one notices.

Your way is working wonders indeed. As I wrote one pastor, "Don't bring a squirt gun to a knife fight."

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rlschultz has left a new comment on your post "Not Apt To Teach":

The Matthew 18 portion of the "8 and 18 switch" always works the first time around on naive and unsuspecting laity. The problem is that the apostate leaders keep using it, no matter what the circumstances. This prompted one member to jokingly refer to it as the favorite Bible chapter at our former congregation. Here is a seemingly strange coincidence. The circuit pastor recommended a face to face meeting with the pastor and a group of concerned members. The pastor refused to attend, just like Deputy Doug. An elder was there, who attempted to make an audio recording of the meeting. That almost set a lynch mob into motion. Fortunately, no blood was shed. Little did any of our members realize at that time that the improper application of Matthew 18 was synod wide and not relegated to just one congregation.

***

GJ - The Matthew 18 against heresiarch Ted Hartwig did not work. Pastors were told to "mind their own business." I know of pastors who went to Kelm - no difference. The C and C list of WELS pastors begged Kelm to cancel Leonard Sweet. He would not even respond.

I recently sent three certified letters, two to pastors, one to an official. The signed receipts came back. Not one of them responded in any way whatsoever. Previously, an email went unanswered. The matter is not over just because the boys will not answer for their lawbreaking.