One Year at Yale University--Room, Board, Tuition,Now Costs $50,000

Concordia Seminary is only half that cost per year, a real bargain. At the end of four years, the student has enormous debts to pay and often no hope for a call.

The LCMS does not support its seminaries at all. The seminary professors are making a living from the student loan debt of their students.

What is an MDiv from the LCMS worth in the outside world? Nothing.

Best Comment of the Week

LPC has left a new comment on your post "Twin Babies Conversation":

I thought the other boy was trying to explain UOJ to his brother.

;-) Could not resist.


LPC

Conquistadors

There Is Only One Road

Notice that Steve Witte calls himself "Dr." by virtue of his drive-by DMin from Gordon-Conwell, two facts conveniently omitted from this promotion from Church and change. Note also that he co-founded the WELS Prayer Warriors, just as he helped found C and C. The Intrepids pretended not to notice when SP Schroeder allowed Witte to start misleading the Asians about Biblical theology. Here are the facts.



Scott E. Jungen has left a new comment on your post "More Than Photoshop Practice":

You are so true that the WELS is in a doctrinal war. I do believe both sides are fighting. The problem is the Intrepid side is taking the "high road" and expects the "Changer" side to do the same. We know what happens when one side expects the other to fight fairly, don't we?

Scott E. Jungen

***

GJ - The Intrepids imagine they are taking the high road, by pulling their punches all the time. In effect, they are doing PR for Church and Change.

Church and Change is still running and their board members are still posted.

The milquetoast Intrepids had no opinion when Witte became president of the portable WELS Asian seminary. Who allowed that? Not Gurgle, but SP Schroeder.

There is no high road or low road. The only road is doctrinal. If the Changers who run WELS are so smitten by false doctrine, that doctrine should be addressed all the time, in every location and venue, in the blogs and private conversation, in the pulpit and classroom. There is a reason God started the Reformation in the 16th century. The Church still had men who were willing to study the Word and trust the Word. That no longer applies.

More Than Photoshop Practice

Groeschel, Tim Glende's favorite theologian, knows how to rock a pair of faded jeans.

One Ich-addict wrote about the relative drought of posts this week. I seem to be outproducing ELCA, Missouri, and WELS combined, but that is not so difficult. I do not enjoy three martini lunches. Nor do I devote all my spare time to Packer-mania (not that there is anything wrong with that).

I get peeved at the relentless onslaught of anti-Christian behavior in the Olde Syn Conference. Even when caught and feigning repentance (gay video) the dogs return to their vomit - following the Word in their distinctive way.

Sausage Factory students used to declare angrily that no one outside of the Pietistic haven could criticize them. They never applied that rule to themselves, because they were always eager to run down every denomination, especially the ELS. More hilariously, they could not abide criticism from inside of WELS either.

My favorite bromide from that era was, "Missouri will have to get ministry straight before we can be in fellowship with them again." That was always said exactly the same way, with great fierceness, as if repeating a statement from the musty mummified classroom. And it was. Of course, the professors were studying doctrine with their Missouri counterparts at many locations, including Fuller Seminary, Willow Creek, and Trinity Divinity in Deerfield.

As Arizona Babtist said, "Dropping the F-word is scary to WELS." The F-word is Fuller. The Fuller grads start lying as soon as they hear it.

One Eponymous Archon (https://me.yahoo.com/oneeponymousarchon) has left a new comment on your post "Harrison, Schroeder, and Moldstad To Issue Apology...":

Great spoof, Dr. Jackson! This would be really funny if it weren't so sadly and pathetically true and accurate. In fact, is it indeed frighteningly right on! I was in WELS for a long time before I realize how sick and demented they all are. I'm still wary of them, which is why I don't use my real name. I have relatives still stuck in that fetid swamp of unholiness! Keep up the good work of unmasking these heretics! I am merely -

One Eponymous Archon

***

GJ - WELS is very sick as an organization. The corrupt and immoral are constantly rewarded while the faithful are slapped around. One ex-WELS member is shocked that I know some good Wisconsin pastors. There are some, but not very many. The system is so evil that the faithful must stay under the radar so they are not spewed out like last night's ingestion of beer.

I understand why people do not want to be identified when they speak the truth about WELS. This is the only public place where that can happen.

The Intrepids try every so often, but that is obviously a managed blog, managed by SP Schroeder. They are on a tight leash, like puppies waiting to be housebroken.

This is a doctrinal war, with only one side (the Changers) fighting.

Cry havoc and unleash the dogs of war.

Going, Going, Gone from ELCA.Not an April Fool's Joke

"We have thousands left, Brett, so don't get all smirky."


Update from ALPB:

Reported today in the NC Synod's email newsletter:

Congregation Update - March 29, 2011
Across the ELCA's 10,400 congregations (as of March 3, 2011):

    * 551 congregations which have taken the first vote to disaffiliate, received the necessary 2/3's majority
    * 240 first votes failed
    * 414  congregations have had a second vote to disaffiliate, receiving the necessary 2/3's majority
    * 23 second votes failed

In the North Carolina Synod's 238 congregations:

    * 22 congregations in North Carolina have voted to disaffiliate and their departure has been approved by the NC Synod Council:
          o Mt. Hermon, Statesville
          o Spirit of Joy, Matthews
          o St. Paul's, Salisbury             
          o The Well, Charlotte
          o Center Grove,  Kannapolis         
          o New Jerusalem, Hickory
          o Christiana, Salisbury         
          o St. Matthew, Salisbury
          o Grace, Newton             
          o Trinity, Landis
          o Miller's, Hickory             
          o Union, Salisbury
          o St. James, Newton             
          o St. John's, Statesville         
          o Mt. Calvary, Claremont         
          o Christus Victor, Fayetteville
          o Bethel, Lincolnton             
          o Concordia, China Grove
          o St. John's, Asheboro         
          o Atonement, Wilkesboro
          o Holy Trinity, Troutman         
          o Redeemer, Charlotte

    * Three congregations have taken a second vote to disaffiliate and their request will be considered during the June Synod Council meeting: Lutheran Church of Our Saviour, Dallas; Holy Trinity, Gastonia; Organ, Salisbury.
    * Six congregations have taken a first vote and received the necessary 2/3's to disaffiliate, but have not yet received a second vote.
    *  Eight congregations have voted and will remain in the ELCA

Harrison, Schroeder, and Moldstad To Issue Apology

"No, your Holiness, you are not John Moldstad.
For the sake of the Church, show some humility."

LCMS Synod President Matthew Harrison, WELS Synod President Mark Schroeder, and ELS CEO John Moldstad are issuing a joint press release today, apologizing to their members.

One copy was leaked to this blog. I have copied the relevant parts below:

Dear Members and Pastors, Victims and Co-Conspirators,

We are issuing this communique jointly because we have been committing the same sins for the last 50-100 years. Some of you have changed synods in the hopes of escaping this, but you got it all over again, worse, because we keep track.

We have sinned so grievously that we should issue several volumes rather than one press release.

First of all, we twisted, distorted, and rejected Luther's Biblical doctrine of justification by faith. We worked so hard at this error that our own confessional leaders will attack anyone suspected of teaching Luther's doctrine.

Robert Preus was onto us and repudiated UOJ before he died. We thought we could trust his sons to edit all that out of Justification and Rome, but they botched it. We had to amp up the personal attacks to take people's mind off the truth. We are sorry for that.

All three of us realize that our little groups began in Pietism and drifted back to Halle's doctrine. For a long time we were able to call upon a sentimental attachment to Holy Mother Synod, since we cannot rely on the Blessed Virgin Mother to raise funds for us. Tragically, that was like crack cocaine. We could get all weepy about our Founders and rake in a few million at a time. Some of you share the blame. You wanted buildings rather than doctrine, so we gave you big new buildings with your names inscribed on them. Our bad.

We thought we could teach Enthusiasm and yet contain it. Now we see how wrong it was. Pastors started teaching that the elements of Holy Communion changed the moment they were touched by the faithful.

We really tried to keep the Lutheran substance while we polished up the Fuller style. We paid so much to learn all that, and now we are spinning out of control.

Everything else has followed, because we did not trust the Word of God to accomplish His will.

We were so greedy for money that we did whatever the insurance companies told us, so ELCA ( or the previous church bodies) did not get our share of the kitty.

We sold a few indulgences to impenitent sinners, just to get those buildings our members love so much. We reasoned that everything belonged to God, so it naturally belonged to us, as the Servants of the Servants of God.

Worst of all, when our clergy buddies abused members or stole money, we absolved and promoted them. When our critics found fault with our doctrine and methods, we pounded them and drove them away as evildoers. We got really good at it too.

Video link - not WELS, so it is decent.

Mid-Week Lenten Service

Pastor Gregory L. Jackson

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bethany-lutheran-worship

Bethany Lutheran Worship, 7 PM Central on Wednesdays.

The Hymn #158 Wem in Leidenstagen 4.70
The Order of Vespers p. 41
The Psalmody Psalm 8 p. 124
The Lection Passion Harmony, TLH

The Sermon Hymn #267 War Gott nich mit uns 4.61

The Sermon – Declared Righteous Through Faith

The Prayers
The Lord’s Prayer
The Collect for Grace p. 45

The Hymn #562 Seelenbraeutigam 4.27

KJV Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

There are clear divisions in the Bible. One is between believers in Christ and unbelievers.

Another is between Law and Gospel.

A third is between the righteousness of works and the righteousness of faith.

Clearly, these clear divisions belong together. They are closely related and not independent, the way systematic theologians write paragraphs on this topic and paragraphs on that topic.

An unbeliever trusts in the righteousness of the Law. If you do not believe that, listen to a non-Christ speak about merit, virtue, or righteousness. Atheists are especially clear. They are righteous because of their works and they condemn Christians for their failings, sins, hypocrisy, and lack of works.

A believer trusts in the Gospel, which is conveyed to us in the Word of God by the Holy Spirit. The Gospel teaches the righteousness of faith, that trusting in the work of Jesus gives us a declaration of innocence. That declaration (justification) is not related to our merit but to the merit and works of Christ, chiefly dying on the cross for our sins.

Whenever justification by faith is denied, justification by works (also called works-righteousness) is substituted for it. This passage (Romans 4 and 5, too) is so dangerous and threatening to works righteousness that all false teachers use the term “justification by faith” while denying it and doing everything possible to destroy.

I still have a WELS devotional page titled “Justification by Faith” where this was attempted once again.

So there is no use in paying attention to the words used vainly when the content is denied so forcibly.

What does Paul say here, inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The Law can only elevate the sense of sin and make us feel the wrath of God. Therefore, whatever works we do to placate God will only make us feel the guilt more strongly. Even going back to the Sunday School teacher (1st grade) and apologizing to her will not justify the sinner.

All efforts at self-atonement are really works-righteousness, so they will be unfulfilling.

Remember too that condemning people for not trusting the Gospel is the work of the Holy Spirit (John 16). “He will convict the world of sin, because it does not completely trust in Me.”

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

The Law and the Prophets led up to the crucifixion and witnessed to it, centuries before it happened. Christ crucified is the revelation of the righteousness of God without the Law.
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

As the Formula of Concord teaches, the righteousness of God is by faith in Jesus Christ for all of those who believe.

http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#III.%20The%20Righteousness%20of%20Faith%20Before%20God.
2. Accordingly, we believe, teach, and confess that our righteousness before God is (this very thing], that God forgives us our sins out of pure grace, without any work, merit, or worthiness of ours preceding, present, or following, that He presents and imputes to us the righteousness of Christ's obedience, on account of which righteousness we are received into grace by God, and regarded as righteous.
5] 3. We believe, teach, and confess that faith alone is the means and instrument whereby we lay hold of Christ, and thus in Christ of that righteousness which avails before God, for whose sake this faith is imputed to us for righteousness, Rom. 4:5.
6] 4. We believe, teach, and confess that this faith is not a bare knowledge of the history of Christ, but such a gift of God by which we come to the right knowledge of Christ as our Redeemer in the Word of the Gospel, and trust in Him that for the sake of His obedience alone we have, by grace, the forgiveness of sins, are regarded as holy and righteous before God the Father, and eternally saved.
7] 5. We believe, teach, and confess that according to the usage of Holy Scripture the word justify means in this article, to absolve, that is, to declare free from sins. Prov. 17:15: He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the righteous, even they both are abomination to the Lord. Also Rom. 8:33: Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
8] And when, in place of this, the words regeneratio and vivificatio, that is, regeneration and vivification, are employed, as in the Apology, this is done in the same sense. By these terms, in other places, the renewal of man is understood, and distinguished from justification by faith.
9] 6. We believe, teach, and confess also that notwithstanding the fact that many weaknesses and defects cling to the true believers and truly regenerate, even to the grave, still they must not on that account doubt either their righteousness which has been imputed to them by faith, or the salvation of their souls, but must regard it as certain that for Christ's sake, according to the promise and [immovable] Word of the holy Gospel, they have a gracious God.
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

These six verses, which are used for justification WITHOUT faith, are clearly given to teach justification BY faith.

The Gospel, in the narrowest sense, is the crucifixion of Christ for the sins of the world. That is what the Christian Church teaches. That is the treasure, conveyed by Holy Spirit through the Word.

Faith is that trust in the Gospel that the Holy Spirit stirs up in our hearts. Justification by faith has been used to say this comes from man’s merit or will or intelligence. The Word of God says just the opposite. The Gospel is God’s work and the proclamation is also God’s work. Creating and sustaining faith is the work of the Gospel in the Word.

KJV Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

The answer to the father is this – God does that through the Gospel, because we are all weak, fallible creatures, easily doubting and backsliding. All are equal that way. But the Gospel declares to us that God is gracious and merciful to sinners.

Bruce Church's Posts May Be Finding Their Mark

Bruce Church has left a new comment on your post "Re-Gentrifying Our Lady of Sorrows (Concordia, St....":

More on the first-class food pantry the sem students need to keep from going hungry:

http://concordiastl.com/HWTH/news
excerpt: relocation of the Seminary’s Food Bank out of the basement in Loeber Hall and into renovated space within the Wartburg-Koburg Student Commons. The Seminary’s Food Bank supplies students and their families with free food and personal items in quantities based on the size of the family. The replacement walk-in freezer will be large enough to accommodate frozen foods used by the dining hall kitchen staff as well as donations of frozen meats and vegetables made available to families through the Food Bank. Display cases will initially be installed in the existing Food Bank, then relocated to the Wartburg-Koburg Student Commons when renovation work is complete. An additional benefit of replacing the existing equipment is that the new unit will be more energy-efficient, and reduce annual maintenance costs over the obsolete unit it replaces.

Bruce Church has left a new comment on your post "Walther Did Not Teach Justification by Faith from ...":

The day after this graphic posted, President Harrison blogs about being vigilant against the enemies of unity. I perceive that as a response to this graphic and what Ichabod has been revealing lately about the LCMS seminaries ripping off the federal govt in order to prop up Walther's Babylon.

Just think. Walther calls the greatest Lutheran theologians Arminians, and all Harrison can think about is how this might hurt unity. It reminds me of Professor Sauer's frustration that when he brings up merging the two seminaries (like the Canadian synod just did with their two seminaries), the LCMS bigwigs sign a statement saying such discussion must end because it is hurting fundraising and recruiting for the seminaries. That's exactly mirrors the response of Pope Leo X who wanted to quash discussion about Tetzel and indulgences because it was hurting fundraising for St. Peter's cathedral.
------------------
From Pr. Harrison's blog:
F.C.D. Wyneken on Preserving Unity
http://mercyjourney.blogspot.com/2011/03/fcd-wyneken-on-preserving-unity.html?spref=fb

excerpt: All this should firmly and constantly move our hearts to pay close attention to the powerful enemies of this unity, external as much as internal.
-------
Talking about the Seminaries
by Paul Sauer — January 14, 2010
http://www.lutheranforum.org/blogs/Talking_about_the_Seminaries/

excerpt: Failing to fully explore whether the current structure of two residential seminaries is the best way of providing residential seminary education simply because of the potential damage it might cause to the status quo is mad-hatterish in its logic.

***

GJ - SP Matt Harrison is a very nice guy, from what I have observed from a distance. He is also savvy about using the social media. He is the most studious SP since Jack Preus. I know Ralph Bohlmann had a Yale doctorate, but there was not much evidence of it in his work.

Harrison is good at throwing meat to the neo-Bronzies, who start purring as soon as someone mentions visiting the sacred relics at the Concordia Historical Institute. The LCMS pastors react to Harrison's mention of the Missouri saints the way tween cutters respond to Justin Bieber, fainting and bawling their eyes out. Touching.

Missouri is just as fraudulent in the use of its funds as WELS is. I know the Wisconsin felons better, so I highlight them. A pie chart showing income sources would be edifying. So would another pie chart showing how much goes to salaries, benefits, hotels, mini-bars, room movies, car rentals, and lawsuit expenses.

Congregations do that and pass the information up the line, Districts and synods should do the same.

Lito Cruz, Our PhD Math Expert, Logician, and Ex-Calvinist

I finally got a Lito Cruz' photo, after using his metaphor-photo from his blog.

Here is his latest comment.

LI got involved in math during his computer science training. He was lucky to have great professors, taking trig, calculus 1 and 2.

Dr. Cruz is also involved in computer science. Coming from Calvinism, he is much better at discussing the topic than those who chortle over their talking points memorized at seminary and never tested outside their little circle.

Just Say No To the New NIV.Madness on All Fronts

WELS church lady has left a new comment on your post "Ben Wink on the KJV and TLH":

"Say NO to the New NIV!" Monday evening, I was unable to attend Ladies Bible Study.(which is led by my pastor) I emailed Pastor concerning my disgust of the 2011 NIV. The translation is filthy!(made love) This language is not a proper translation and it belongs in the Romance Novel section of the book store. This "so-called" Bible defends homosexuality.(only practicing homosexuality is a sin) The name "Jesus" appears less than the reduced appearance in the regular NIV. The translators are not above reproach. Gender-neutral language is an attempt to make differences in men and women(as designed and defined by God)nonexistent. So God is not our Heavenly Father? Look at those Her Churches and Gay churches; it seems that they need a Bible that accommodates such audiences. What really puzzles me is the fact that as Confessional Lutherans, we are trusting a translation of God's Word by Freemasons and at least one openly fay female. This is madness on all fronts. WELS leaders and laity need to stand up and say "No" the the acceptance of the 2011 NIV. Tell your friends, relatives, congregation, and pastors. Perhaps the Intrepids would like to start another petition.

In Christ,
from WELS church lady

***

GJ - The translation, if it can be called that, is singularly inept, adding more problems to the leaden language of the earlier botch.

Twin Babies Conversation

Katy Perry's Mother, An Ordained Minister, Is Concerned about Her Daughter's Shameless Displays

When Katy Perry's mother complained about her daughter's shameless displays,
I thought of these photos published on Facebook.
Some jokes write themselves, but I am mute.

---

2 comments:

Anonymous said...

Spoken by a man with ten followers? Scott E. Jungen

March 10, 2011 6:52 AM

Tim Glende said...

Mr. Jungen, does it matter how many followers our blog has? I invite you to search back into our blog and check out for yourself why we're on the Internet. We don't plan on responding to Greg Jackson everytime he posts something. We are here on the Internet as an alternative voice to his poison and to let readers know that most of what he writes are half-truths and untruths. One other thing. Don't fall for the thought that since Greg Jackson has a lot of followers he must be highly regarded. Most of the people I know who read his blog do it for their daily laugh. It's better than the funny papers.

March 10, 2011 1:16 PM

***

GJ - Tim, your blog is a window into the puss-filled abscess called Fox Valley. Keep posting.

How many pastors would bully an attorney who has legitimate concerns?

When are you and Ski going to answer the letters and emails sent to you?

How many pastors fire the circuit pastor, as you did, for correctly identifying your plagiarism of Groeschel?

Why do you and Ski phone people long distance to intimidate them about their justified criticism of your crypto-Babtist congregation?

Your assistant minister quit because of of "deception." When will you come clean about it?

Did you criticize Katy Perry's Hindu wedding?

Did you post anything against your uncle John Brug for attending Yale? Parlow for Denver Seminary? Witte for Gordon Conwell? Kelm for St. Louis? Ski for Drive? (Oh wait, you went there too, so it's ok.) Olson, Valleskey and Huebner for Fuller? Bishop Katie for Dirt? Katie and Ski for Granger? Ski and Katie for Driscoll? (Oh wait, you went there too, so it's ok.)

PS - Tim, you criticized me for using photos from the Net, but you steal my graphics, which are all copyrighted because of the Photoshop work I put into them. I put hours into them and you steal them without attribution. Are you afraid people will find my blog if you provide a link? I think they can find it already, since there are 50,000 page-views per month. Yes, they are all laughing...at Fox Valley. But the faithful Lutherans in your circuit are crying. They really are.

Tim, you were known as a bully in college, and you still are. But now your bullying is no longer a secret. It is easy to see from the photos with Katy that you and Ski have never grown up. You are still teens playing football and goofing around. Time to grow up and man up.

Thoughts of Faith - Where Did All the Money Go?

"We help that money to spend.
Reach out with the Gospel.
Take a lot of money. Russia very bad place."



News from Ukraine

Rev. John Vogt reports: “After many years of worshiping in the auditorium of a mathematics institute in Kyiv, our largest ULC congregation was informed that ‘outsiders’ were no longer allowed ‘for security reasons.’ So it could not worship there any longer… The congregation has temporarily been permitted to worship in a different school across the street from the mathematics institute. Meanwhile, it is frantically searching for a permanent home, perhaps by purchasing space in an existing building outside the center of Kyiv.” We ask all to keep our ULC brothers and sisters in Christ in our prayers.

***

GJ - The ELS is admitting that more than $15 million disappeared in the Ukraine and they do not have a building for their "largest ULC" congregation. How large?

Hitler made more progress in the Ukraine than TOF. Of course, he did not have Jay Webber, Roger Kovaciny, and Floyd Luther Stolzenburg helping out.

And salmonella poisoning.

Don't Cross Pope John the Unready

Pastoral Candidates & Vacancies
Currently the synod has only one vacancy (Lakewood, WA). We are anticipating a seminary graduating class of  three candidates available this year; also, one candidate from last year’s class is still awaiting placement, and another candidate should be ready in the middle of the school year. Please keep these men in your prayers as they patiently await God’s timing in providing avenues for full-time service in his kingdom.

***

GJ - They have four more graduates than they need in the Little Sect on the Prairie. Pray that four pastors will die, join the LCMS, or raise an eyebrow in Pope John's direction when he speaks ex cathedra.

The ELS is so confessional that they have their own Emergent Church parish. They have such a surplus of doctrinal wisdom that they can afford to loan out Jay Webber to the Intrepids. They do a lot of planning, which is a poor substitute for trusting the Word of God.

They have already planned to fade away in the next 20 years. That is God's response to the Church Growth Movement, which they have never acknowledged, except to endorse every decrepitation from WELS.

Something for Everyone

Marvin Built Himself a Chapel Here, TooWhile Students Racked Up Huge Loans

James has left a new comment on your post "Re-Gentrifying Our Lady of Sorrows (Concordia, St....":

"...the synod offerings give almost nothing to the seminaries."


I would wager that 98% of LCMS laymen are not aware of that fact, nor of the fact that seminary graduates have at least $20,000 in student loans (or more if they begin seminary with tens of thousands of dollars in undergraduate student loans).

You would think that seminary support would count as obligatory missions support. Wouldn't it be wonderful if LCMS seminary grads with no calls, but also with no debt, could be used to plant new churches.

Where does the offering plate money go? Does it go to support half-baked, ineffective Church Growth programs? Where is the "Growth" in knowledge of the Lutheran confessions among the laity. I don't get it.

Are the goals outlined in "It's Time!" and in the Koinonia Project mere wishful thinking? Are the people at the highest levels of the LCMS paying attention to insightful reflections such as yours?

Organist-in-Residence, The Church of the Augsburg Confession

Joseph Schmidt

"O Little Flock, Fear Not the Foe"

1. O little flock, fear not the Foe
Who madly seeks your overthrow;
Dread not his rage and power.
What though your courage sometimes faints,
His seeming triumph o'er God's saints
Lasts but a little hour.

2. Be of good cheer; your cause belongs
To Him who can avenge your wrongs;
Leave it to Him, our Lord.
Though hidden yet from mortal eyes,
His Gideon shall for you arise,
Uphold you and His Word.

3. As true as God's own Word is true.
Not earth nor hell with all their crew
Against us shall prevail.
A jest and byword are they grown;
God is with us, we are His own;
Our victory cannot fail.

4. Amen, Lord Jesus, grant our prayer;
Great Captain, now Thine arm make bare,
Fight for us once again!
So shall Thy saints and martyrs raise
A mighty chorus to Thy praise,
World without end. Amen.

Hymn #263 The Lutheran Hymnal
Text: Luke 12:32
Author: Johann M. Altenburg, 1632, asc., ab.
Translated by: Catherine Winkworth, 1855, alt.
Titled: "Verzage nicht, du Haeuflein klein"
Tune: "Kommt her zu mir"
Melody: German, c. 1400

Stops Used for Prelude
SWELL:
Clarinet 8'
Geigen Principal 8'
Salicet 4'

Verse 1
GREAT:
Fifteenth 2'
Open Diapason Small 8'
Open Diapason Large 8'
Principal 4'

PEDAL:
Echo Bass 16'
Sub-Bass 16'
Principal 8'
Bass Flute 8'
Open Diapason 16'

Stops Used for Verse 2
SWELL:
Clarinet 8'
Geigen Principal 8'
Salicet 4'

PEDAL:
Echo Bass 16'
Sub-Bass 16'
Principal 8'
Bass Flute 8'
Open Diapason 16'
Swell to Pedal

Stops Used for Verse 3
GREAT:
Fifteenth 2'
Open Diapason Small 8'
Open Diapason Large 8'
Principal 4'

Stops Used for Verse 4
GREAT:
Fifteenth 2'
Open Diapason Small 8'
Open Diapason Large 8'
Principal 4'
Trumpet 8'

PEDAL:
Echo Bass 16'
Sub-Bass 16'
Principal 8'
Bass Flute 8'
Open Diapason 16'
Swell to Pedal

Synod Leaders Care Deeply about Their Own Relatives and Pals...And Money

bertramr (http://bertramr.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Re-Gentrifying Our Lady of Sorrows (Concordia, St....":

Autocrats run the various synods to take care of themselves, their families, and their friends. If you doubt it, follow their doctrine or lack of doctrine over time. Time is the key. Most people do not connect the points over gaps in time. They tend to forget or fail to see the patterns.

***

GJ - If the agenda is to keep things running smoothly, at least to keep up that appearance, doctrine will decline to the point of pure atheism, as it does in all official ELCA actions. This does not keep WELS and Missouri from working closely with them, because all the synods have the same agenda. ELCA is just a bit more obvious.

If the agenda is to be faithful to the Word, there will be turmoil, conferences, debates, pamphlet (or blog) wars, splits, brother against brother. Paul and Jesus said so, but the church bureaucrats see that as it is, a threat to their comfort, security, and bimbos.

The Supreme Court - And I Do Not Mean Conference of Doctrinal Pussycats

WASHINGTON – The Supreme Court will decide whether a teacher at a church-run school is a religious or secular worker when it comes to the Americans with Disabilities Act.

The high court on Monday agreed to hear an appeal from Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School of Redford, Mich.

Cheryl Perich, a teacher and commissioned minister, got sick in 2004 but tried to return to work from disability leave despite being diagnosed with narcolepsy. She taught third and fourth graders

The school said she couldn't return because they had hired a substitute for that year. They fired her after she showed up anyway and threatened to sue to get her job back.

Perich complained to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which sued the church.

The church wanted the case thrown out. Courts have recognized a "ministerial exception" to the ADA which prevents government involvement in the employee-employer relationship between churches and ministerial employees.

But the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati said Perich's job as a teacher was secular, not religious, so the exception blocking the lawsuit didn't count. The church wants that decision overturned.

The Supreme Court will hear arguments later this year.

The case is Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church & School v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, 10-553.

Re-Gentrifying Our Lady of Sorrows (Concordia, St. Louis)

bruce-church (https://bruce-church.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Bloated Hours, Bloated Costs at Lutheran Seminarie...":

At Concordia St. Louis they now have a food services infrastructure upgrade that started on 18 March. They are also turning the lower floor of a dormitory into a food bank and resell it shop.

Let me translate that for you. The seminary is admitting that they have so few residential 4-year M Div students left that they now convert dormitory space for other purposes. They are also saying that their students are so poor due to high tuition costs that they need a first class food pantry and Good Will-type donation center/resell it shop. Another point is that their M Div program is so bloated that many take 5 years to complete it, and in order to wile away that amount of time and pay for it all, most students are now married, and dormitories are not suitable for couples and families.

***

GJ - The students fund the seminary costs with their student loans and high tuition because the synod offerings give almost nothing to the seminaries.

St. Louis and Mequon both spent millions on their campus facilities to make them more attractive to the people studying there. Both schools have declined in enrollment since then.

---

LPC has left a new comment on your post "Re-Gentrifying Our Lady of Sorrows (Concordia, St....":

Bruce,

Don't these Sin-nods have money? Why do not they just fund these students specially the deserving ones? Why does it always have to be that you pay up or else, no education?

LPC

Another Hilarious Post from Paul McCain's Theological Guru

Jack Kilcrease could not admit to reading Ichabod, but he found out about Michelle Bachmann no longer being WELS.

I love the way he unburdens himself about the Antichrist, as a Missouri Synod layman who teaches for the Antichrist:

About Me

Dr. Jack Kilcrease

Grand Rapids, Michigan, United States

I am a layperson in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and an adjunct professor of Theology and Humanities at Aquinas College in Grand Rapids. I grew up in Oregon and attended Luther College in Iowa (B.A. History and Religion) and Luther Seminary in St. Paul, MN (M.A. Doctrine and Theology). I graduated in 2009 from Marquette University with a Ph.D in Systematic Theology.

He is another fan of UOJ.

Ben Wink on the KJV and TLH

Ben Wink


Ben Wink has left a new comment on your post "WELS Playing Hamlet on Their Next Bible Blunder":

You'd think that a translation that has proved itself over the course of 400 years would be a clear winner, but apparently not.

Or a hymnal (TLH) that has been around for 70 years (another anniversary this year!)

There's got to be someone getting a piece of the action in switching translations like this right? I mean going from the NIV to the NIV2: The Sequel or the ESV is just adding more water to weak tea already isn't it?

I remember a shut-in that I had on my internship that refused to listen to any Scripture that I had in my devotions unless it came from the KJV. She was from Italy and when she came over to the US after WWII, she learned how to speak and read English from the KJV and it always remained a crucial part of her faith.

So I picked up a KJV for doing those devotions. Got a nice red-letter one from a local Christian bookstore and it was the original KJV translation. I am certainly glad that the Lord used this shut-in believer as the reason why I now have my KJV.

There is something to be said about being connected to other believers who have read these same words for centuries. I feel the same way whenever I get a chance to use TLH or a TLH version of a traditional hymn or even just saying the traditional version of The Lord's Prayer or Nicene Creed.

Fixing something that isn't broken just for the sake of fixing it is pointless and redundant. Sure it will increase book sales, like a new not-needed hymnal would, but that's about it.

***

GJ - A steady seller is a flow of money in book publishing. The NIV publisher (Murdoch) will not allow the old NIV to be used in the present and future WELS/LCMS textbooks. Poor them - they are forced to print everything new again. No recycling allowed.

For WELS and Missouri, it is like having a big taxation passed, without any votes.

Page Views on Ichabod - The Data

For Lord of the Rings fans only.

Recently there were 5,000 page views over a space of 48 hours.

The normal day's viewing is counted new at 6 PM. By morning, about 900 page-views have been logged. By supper time, another 900 page views are the typical amount. I usually see 1800 page-views a day now.

If someone has a good story to share, the page-views go up and stay above normal for a time. The increase of the average page-views has been steady. When I began, 200 per day was typical, and that software showed about 100 returning readers for 200 page-views. I am not sure how many individual readers there are now. Installing software slows down the blog, so I avoid that.

Almost 6,000 posts have been published. The total page-views in year seems to be 500,000 at this time.

Lutherans Will Recognize 2017 and 2030, But Not Themselves

Martin Chemnitz, senior editor of the Book of Concord

The Past
I objected to the ELCA merger and outlined the future actions of the synod. I left the LCA before the merger took place and published my research in Christian News. That embarrassed WELS no end, because they were busy working with ELCA and have been ever since. I was 25 years ahead of my time, but no one listened. Now ELCA is shattering faster than a bar-room mirror in a cheap Western movie.

The Present
Missouri, WELS, and the Little Sect like to look down their snouts at ELCA, but they also like working with them and grabbing all the Thrivent loot they can.

The Future, 2017
ELCA will apologize to the Church of Rome for being so nasty during the Reformation.

By 2017, WELS will have no parochial school system left. The last two preps will be gone. MLC will be owned by a for-profit corporation, doing well. Mequon will be working on plans to sell the property.

Missouri tongue-clucking will be loud, but the flopsweat will be flowing as Ft. Wayne is consolidated with St. Louis. The catastrophic decline of St. Louis will make the location of the merged seminary a hot topic.

Pope John the Unmerciful will still be in charge of the Little Sect on the Prairie, but everyone will realize the end is near.

2030
The NALC will re-unite with ELCA and apologize for being so nasty during the 2010 split.

A few will remember the Little Sect on the Prairie, but a wiseacre blogger will predict that the ELS will soon be as forgotten as the Olive Branch Synod.

WELS will work out legal arrangements for consolidation with Missouri, which will remind everyone of the KMart-Sears merger: two dying entities embracing each other.

Katy Perry, the new Synod President of WELS, will renounce her husband and out herself. Her cover of "Girls Just Want To Have Fun" will keep the synod solvent another year, so no one will object.

Missouri will work on a lengthy apology, to allow them to exist as a non-geographical synod of ELCA-Episcopal. Remaining clergy, men and women alike, will proudly point to the Missouri circuit as the "Confessional Lutherans."

How Badly is WELS Collapsing in Milwaukee?

A few years ago, DP Seifert told the pastors that they would soon no longer recognized their synod. He failed to say he was one of the architects of the surrender to Church and Change.

Reality is hitting hard now. One source told me last night that most of the WELS parochial schools are closing or merging. There will be just a handful of schools left, all of them dependent on the Milwaukee taxpayer choice program, the deceptive charter school concept. Following Jeske's example, WELS will run a few schools, but they will be fueled by taxpayer checks. They are not private schools and are definitely not church schools. They are employment opportunities.

In the good old days, WELS refused government support and avoided being entangled in government regulation. Now WELS is just another cog in the public school system. For the clergy with their trotters in the trough, life is good for the moment. This set-up strikes me like junk food, appealing for a short time but disappointing soon after.

James Huebner, a fan of Rob Bell, is such an expert in evangelism that he once loaned himself out to other congregations (for a fat fee)  - to share  the wisdom he gleaned from Fuller Seminary. Now he moonlights as the First Veep of WELS. His parish gets a $10,000 kickback for this!

Check out his Grace Place Coffee Shoppe, formerly the Soul Cafe.

He claims Grace in downtown Milwaukee has tripled since his gracious visitation, but where is the school? The Milwaukee insider says that Grace has no school and must export the kiddies to another location.

Lutheran elementary schools in Milwaukee - wave goodbye. Going, going, gone.

The same trend is also obvious in Appleton, Wisconsin, where WELS members are just as dense as they are in Milwaukee. WELS congregations are closing/merging the schools there too, in spite of three decades of Church Growth in Fox Valley.

Following Jeske's lead, the Fox Valley churches are also going non-Lutheran. Naturally, they are intimately connected with his Church and Change operation, which still has its websty up and running.

Mary Lou College no longer has a role. The school was once a prep, college, and seminary for the Minnesota Lutherans. MLC became the teachers' college for WELS and later jettisoned the prep because it needed the space. They do not need a teachers' college when schools are rapidly closing and merging.

Nor does MLC need to remain open for dozen guys to get prepped for seminary. WLC could handle that, or they could lease a portable classroom at Watertown.

007

"Sign your irrevocable gift trust right here.
Please."


rlschultz has left a new comment on your post "Different from WELS, Missouri, And the Little Sect...":

Taken to its logical conclusion, the 007 certification has produced some mind boggling double standards at the congregational level. I have noticed that it is anything goes in the name of evangelism and the stewardship. Waldo Werning material, Fireproof series from a Georgia Babtist church, and a commission to Cornerstone for capital appeals are three recent examples from my former WELS congregation. When members are asked to be served in some rather simple matters, they are wrung through the washer and must jump through all kinds of hoops. Even the lay leadership gets afflicted with the 007 certification.

***

GJ - WELS dictatorial pastors demand robotic lay leaders who obey their orders to take out the dissenters "with prejudice."

The laity should explore how WELS leaders use the synod to skim vast sums of money from the congregations. Cornerstone is just one example. Fighting them is like fighting the Mafia - except the Mob will sit down and discuss a deal.

WELS also has "consultants" who flit into congregations, make grand statements, and demand huge fees. In 13 years in the LCA, anyone who helped only received the basic salary and expenses. The only difference was Lutheran Layman's League, which had fee-based laity who were helpers in stewardship campaigns. The fees were reasonable.

St Mark's Lutheran Church Watertown, WI
2011 Capital Fund Appeal

Someone sent me the "devotions" from the appeal for St. Mark's. I will copy some of the weird statements below:

"For the sake of the gospel, why is our school building important?"

"Jesus, holy sacrifice for my rebellion: thank you for suffering hell in my place and dying to bring about my pardon. Cause that good news to ring out from Saint Mark's School. And energize me cheerfully to support that endeavor with my offerings. Amen." [GJ - Jesus should cheerfully energize me?]

"Why is it important for our church and school to have special space for music?"

"When a funeral or rainstorm takes place during recess, students are in the gym. Regularly scheduled gym classes occur there, as well." [GJ - I have no idea what it means to have a funeral during recess. I am glad they have gym classes in the gym ", as well."]

"In a similar way, our present day students are going to need good health to serve their Savior as they desire through their lifetime. Having a fine gymnasium promotes that endeavor considerably. Combine it with the daily proclamation of Christ's resurrection, and our student learn along with us to look forward to our rising from the dead on the final day."

"How necessary is it that a school have...a gymnasium? ...a good gymnasium?"

"Are there restaurant bills, or others, you can trim: for contribution to the Lord?"

"What would my life look like without Jesus...now...for eternity?"

"Jesus tells us, Where your treasure is there your heart will be also.
How does treasuring Christ direct my life today?
How does treasuring Christ direct my use of earthly treasure?
For your regular offerings?
For your capital fund offerings?"

Day 11 - Very Roman Catholic
Very manipulative, based on Mark 10:13ff.
"As parents cry, Jesus, bless my child, grown men growl Be quiet! He doesn't have time for your child. What was wrong with the disciples? Were they perhaps tired of the crowds and the unending requests? Remember Jesus' reaction: it's not one we'd want to be on the receiving end of."

"As troubling as the incident with the disciples was, such a scene is still possible. It may not be people blocking doors, but doors might still be shut when there's a lack of funds."

"How might a more rapid paying down of the debt assist our present and future proclamation?" [GJ - I thought growling members were slamming the door shut on little children.]

"What did our renovation/addition project mean to me...my family...our congregation...our community?"

"What has the water of God's Word and Sacraments meant to me?"

---

Scott E. Jungen has left a new comment on your post "007":

Well, it's good to know that St. Mark's didn't let the Gospel get in the way of their capital appeal. What happened to "pray the Lord of the harvest" and get out your bushel baskets as He rains down His generous blessings? No, wait, then you couldn't use your cute little Law statements to try to "guilt" money out of people.

The principal at St. Mark's was my principal for fifteen years. This is surprising, since he did a nice job of staying out of the church expansion at our former congregation. I stayed out of it too, but it still ran me over. Ooops, there I am being all "bitter" again!

Scott E. Jungen

***

GJ - Here is an explanation for outsiders and other untouchables: Scott's joke about being bitter is a reflection upon the automatic WELS response when anyone questions anything in WELS. That person is "angry, bitter, brain-damaged, senile, crazy, sick, jealous, lazy" and worse.

That is why Prairie was a stroke of genius, but sold/given away to become prison.

That is also why 2929, which was such a smart move, is being sold at the bottom of the real estate market.

That explains Christian Worship, the envy of every low-church feminist cult, or would be if another one got organized.

Walther Did Not Teach Justification by Faith from Luther, But Justification without Faith from Halle University

Seminary Education - Not Exactly What Tim Glende Pretends

"Git yer MDivs here, or try our alternative programs, which help keep our salaries funded."


Green, Lowell C. (2010) The Erlangen School of Theology: Its History, Teaching, and Practice, (pp .21-22). Lutheran Legacy: Fort Wayne, Indiana.

“In the system that once prevailed in the Lutheran churches of the United States and Canada, a theological seminary was a graduate school which culminated in the historical Bachelor of Divinity degree.1 A thorough college education with a solid preparation for starting seminary work, including a knowledge of the four theological tongues–Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and German–was required before enrolling in a Lutheran seminary. Under the changed conditions today, students of theology are coming into theological seminaries without a working knowledge of the German language and therefore can only read materials written in English. Unfortunately, this generally means that they have access more to materials written by Reformed, Arminian, Eastern Orthodox, or Roman Catholic writers than the works of great Lutheran writers. These theologians from other denominations–however capable–cannot be expected to reflect the nuances of thought expressed in the Lutheran Confessions. This suggests the grave danger that Lutheran students in America will be nourished by theological systems which will gradually wean them away from Lutheran ways of thinking. This means first and foremost a neglect of the distinction of Law and Gospel, as well as a Lutheran understanding of Christology–two doctrines which pervade not only dogmatics but all the other subjects of the theological curriculum. This is the case whether one is speaking of systematic theology, liturgics, Biblical theology, or even historical theology.”



______________

1 The conversion of this degree to the so-called Master of Divinity was well-intended but ill-conceived since a master’s degree is the culmination of a graduate liberal arts program; the Bachelor of Divinity however was already a post-graduate degree and therefore ranked above any master’s degree. Thus Philipp Melanchthon, who already had a Master’s Degree in philosophy, took out the more advanced Bachelor of Bible degree in September 1519. In wake of the conversion in America the standards of pre-theological education were actually lowered, so that many seminary students today do not have a reading knowledge of German.

***

GJ - Oh no, the emphasis must be on turning out ministers in the mold demanded by the synod. That is just as true of ELCA as it is for Missouri, WELS, and the ELS. People must turn off their brains to accept this level of conformity. The ideal candidate is someone who reads the political tea-leaves and follows the latest fad, whether it is gay ordination in ELCA or Emergent Church in the Olde Syn Conference.

The B.D. was changed to MDiv to give more prestige to seminary students. I have seen WELS resumes where pastors list their unaccredited Sausage Factory as "graduate school." Tim Glende and other claim they are always right because of "eight years of uncontrolled drinking theological education." In fact, the Mequonites laugh about how easy seminary is.

The relative new DMin degree was invented because the lazy pastors did not want to go back to seminary for more education. Once they called a one-year course a "Doctor of Ministry," the lazy-bones flocked to attend. These DMins (like Larry Olson and Rich Krause) call themselves "Dr," which is inexpressibly funny. They call their little DMin papers "dissertations." Deep breath. Bag breathe. OK, I am better now.

The worst heretics in Missouri and WELS have DMins from Fuller Seminary, Gorden Conwell, Denver, plus many hours of conference time at Fuller, Willow Creek, Trinity Divinity, Catalyst, Drive, Dirt, Granger, Exponential, and Mars Hill (Seattle).

Jeske's recently boastful remarks suggest that he has also skipped pastoral conferences in his own synod for the ones listed above, the ones he sent Ski and Glende to attend, the ones favored by District VP Kudu Don Patterson.

Book of Concord Lutheran doctrine is dead in America, and the Olde Syn conference leaders of today killed it.

Message from Our Sponsor: Martin Luther

arkos has left a new comment on your post "Someone Fired For False Doctrine?Relax, It's Not t...":

This article made me think of something I read from Luther recently:

"In short, without this article of faith, that we are justified and saved only through Christ and that apart from Him everything is damned, there is no defense or restraint, no boundary or limit for every heresy and error, every sect and faction, with everyone thinking up and broadcasting some peculiar idea of his own. This was the situation under the pope. No monk could have a dream without dragging it into the pulpit and making it into a special act of worship. No lie was too shameful to be accepted so long as someone had the audacity to take it into the pulpit...As we have said, there is no bacchanal or jackass too coarse to gain a great following of believers if he can just think up something new."

Luther's Works, vol. 21: The Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5:13) pg. 59ff

There are several other people and circumstance that I thought of when reading this article as well.

WELS Playing Hamlet on Their Next Bible Blunder

The face palm is the only way to respond to WELS apostasy.


Here is the link to a bunch of their articles.

Reading WELS on any serious subject is just like grading freshman English papers, except WELS has enormous problems in theology, the grammar of faith.

I read enough to see WELS trying to go for the New NIV, which is even worse than their old NIV. They offer only two alternatives:NNIV or ESV. Would you like your flogging before or after dinner? Not much of a choice.

They never mention the KJV, which is a slight modernization of the original from 1611. Anniversary anyone? That would be...this year.

There are many choices in the KJV family, from the older KJV itself to the New KJV, KJV II, and KJV 21. I think there is a Modern KJV too.

FICL--pronounced "fickle," to remind members that the sect changes doctrine more often than Hillary changes her mind--is laying the groundwork for a decision already made. Soon everyone will be parroting the same arguments verbatim, as they did with the feminist creeds. It will be the NNIV. Anyone questioning that will be pushed out for "breaking fellowship." Do not laugh, innocents. They did that with their own pastors and the NIV, after promoting the KJV as the only one.

WELS works with the United Nations and the Salvation Army. Learn to be flexible. Open your minds up.

L. P. Cruz on Luther versus the UOJ Pietists: Justification by Faith

Lito Cruz, PhD, knows Calvinism from the inside,
but this is Godel, as all of you knew anyway.
I was not a math major!

In this book, Dr. Jackson provides a sober critique of UOJ showing how it is wrong exegetically and spurious historically. UOJ gets its cue from a rational handling of Scripture, a Calvinistic theological method. As an ex-Calvinist myself, I find it amusing how UOJ defenders label its critics Calvinists. In truth, UOJ is Calvinistic for in the same way that Calvinism equates the Atonement with Justification, UOJ proponents do the same. Calvinists seeing the Atonement and Justification the same and seeing that Justification does not happen for all, concludes the Atonement has not happened for all. UOJ does the same but in the reverse, seeing that the Atonement happened for all, it concludes that Justification has already happened for all, hence, without faith, prior to faith and before faith without the Means of Grace. This book will help the reader understand the Scriptural teaching and Lutheran belief that justification never happens to anyone with out the Means of Grace. 

L. P. Cruz PhD, Computer Science Lecturer/Researcher

Someone Fired For False Doctrine?Relax, It's Not the Syn Conference

What is hell? Book stirs debate about afterlife

AP – In this photo taken March 17, 2011, Rev. Chad Holtz poses for a photo in Durham, N.C. Holtz was fired …

By TOM BREEN, Associated Press Tom Breen, Associated Press – Sun Mar 27, 5:18 pm ET

RALEIGH, N.C. – What does hell mean to you? Is it an endless nightmare for sinners and unsaved souls, as mainstream Christianity has taught for centuries? Or is hell here on Earth, in the distractions, addictions and emptiness of daily life?

Those ideas are receiving fresh scrutiny from some believers after a prominent evangelical pastor questioned the traditional idea of hell in his new book, "Love Wins."

Even before Rob Bell's book was published this month, religious leaders and their followers were branding it heresy, hailing it as a breakthrough or landing somewhere in the middle. Thousands have weighed in on Twitter, Facebook, blogs or outside their places of worship.

Bell "better go back and read his Bible again! He's all messed up!" wrote Ruth Ward of New Albany, Ind., on Facebook. "Satan is having a field day."

James Turner, a 49-year-old Chicago laborer, says his concept of hell hasn't changed much since he attended church as a boy. For him, hell "is a place where if you don't accept Jesus, or you reject Jesus, it is a place of torment."

Hell is also for those "who are ruthless and brutally hurt people," he said.

"I hope that smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee ain't going to get me down there," he said, puffing on a cigarette Sunday outside the Chicagoland Community Church on the city's North Side, where he's attended services for about 10 years.

For some readers, the book has been a breath of fresh air and a chance to discuss ideas that have long been taboo in evangelical circles.

When Chad Holtz posted a Facebook message supporting Bell's position, he was dismissed from his job as pastor at a United Methodist church in Henderson, N.C. Holtz's posts about the experience on his website drew a flood of responses, including from people who said they were afraid to tell relatives that they did not believe in the notion that God punishes sinners forever in hell.

Carol Buikema, who attends Chicago's Wellington Avenue United Church of Christ, said she recently read a fellow congregant's Facebook post about Bell's book, and it prompted her to question her own beliefs about hell.

"It does pose more questions than answers for me," Buikema, 64, said Sunday.
Believing in Jesus is a basic tenet of Christianity and "if you don't believe in Jesus, you won't go to heaven," she said. "The more I live life, I don't know if I totally believe that. I've always believed that God is not a God of vengeance. He is a loving God. How would you equate the idea of a loving God with going to hell?"

Bell's message is reaching a wide audience: On Friday, "Love Wins" was the fourth-best-selling book overall on Amazon.com, and the best-selling book in the religion category.

The Rev. Erik DiVietro, pastor of Bedford Road Baptist Church in Merrimack, N.H., said he felt the need to respond to Bell's book after being repeatedly asked about it by friends, former students and church members. He disagrees with Bell on several points, but said Christians miss out if they don't try to engage the ideas.

"Christianity is a conversation," he said. "So as we're journeying with these ancient writings, we need to be asking questions. These are good questions, and they need to be part of the dialogue."

Brandy Fenderson, a 34-year-old teacher and member of St. Ann's Episcopal Church in Nashville, Tenn., said Bell's book reminded her of the importance of thinking critically about one's faith.
"I remember thinking I do believe there's a balance between intellect and faith. ... I've argued (with friends) that intellect is divine, given to us by God, and we're not supposed to shut it down."
She believes the idea of a hell where sinners are punished is more of a human construction.

"I don't think there's a burning place with pitchforks," she said. "I guess my idea is basically that there's right and wrong, and hell was invented to keep people from doing wrong. ... It was created more by the church, to guide people in the right way."

Still, she added, "actions have consequences, and you suffer when you do wrong. That can end up being what, quote, unquote, is hell."

At the heart of Bell's position is that God's love can triumph over every obstacle, including sins that Christians have long believed would consign them to anguish in the afterlife. But that notion is appalling to many people, Bell argues, and is minimized even by those who uphold its truth.

"The book is saying we need to take hell more seriously," Bell told The Associated Press, "Because the people who warn about hell when you die don't seem to talk about it very much."
The debate is not entirely new. There's no broad agreement within Christianity about what happens to people after they die.

Some mainline Protestant churches started moving away from the familiar concept of hell as long ago as the 19th century. The Unitarian Universalist Association, which is not a formally Christian denomination but has roots in Christian churches, contains in its very name the concept that Bell's critics accuse him of endorsing: universalism, the notion that every soul will eventually be united with God in paradise.
Some important denominations and theologians moved quickly to criticize Bell's book. A forum was held last week at the Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville in which Christian writers and thinkers laid out their problems with Bell's thinking.

Some Protestant luminaries have also joined the criticism. Ben Witherington, one of the most influential evangelical theologians, is using his blog to take on Bell's book chapter by chapter.
That's partly a sign of how influential Bell is in evangelical circles. His 10,000-member Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Mich., has grown significantly under his leadership, and Bell's artfully made online videos and breezily written books have been popular among younger evangelicals.

"Atheists are not going to be impressed by this book. Skeptics are not going to be impressed by this book," said Christian blogger Justin Taylor at the Southern Baptist forum. "The people who are going to be impressed by this book are disaffected evangelicals."

Cameron Dawn, who described herself as a "good and faithful Roman Catholic," said she has never thought of hell as a specific place.

Instead, the 52-year-old New York City woman believes hell is the personal problems people endure until they accept God and Christ into their lives, such as addiction, gluttony or taking advantage of others.

"You need inner strength to overcome these things and to see all the beauty life has to offer, and that's what God gives you," Dawn said Sunday at the Church of St. Veronica in Howell, N.J.
"Without that inner strength, you will miss out on the wonderful things God has created and that life has to offer you. That is hell on earth, but it's a prison to which you hold the key, and you can use it any time you want."

John Taylor, 45, who was attending services Sunday at the Church of Grace and Peace in Toms River, N.J., said he has no doubt there is some version of hell awaiting evildoers.

"I do believe that if you lead a sinful life on earth, you will pay for it in your next life. And that applies to anyone, whether you're Catholic, Jew, Hindu, whatever. People who disrespect God, disrespect their fellow man — they go to hell."