Brett Meyer - A Reason To Weigh In about Justification

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "UOJ Stormtroopers Retreating from Their Death-Star...":

The main reason everyone should weigh in on the doctrine of UOJ is that it is a new and different gospel than the Gospel declared in Scripture and clearly and fully addressed in the BOC.

Nothing else needs to proceed from the false gospel of UOJ to further the separation of those who confess it from Christ and the forgiveness of sins that comes, by grace, through faith in Him alone. The fact that all manner of abhorent doctrines, behaviors and contradictions eminate from this doctrinal dung heap is simply part and parcel of it's essence and it's war on Christ and His Church.

In Christ,
Brett Meyer

Luther Rocks: Our Exit Interview

Luther Rocks: Our Exit Interview:

'via Blog this'

Our Exit Interview

When we were at Christ the Rock in Round Rock, TX ('06-'09) another member of the band and I were put in charge more or less.  I mean, how can you be boss when you are all volunteers?  Really.  One of the singers decided to leave the band and pastor matt (he always used lower case and referred to himself as lead pastor...something to do with humility probably since he was always pushing it...and how can you be a lead pastor of no other pastors?  Oh...everyone a minister.) wanted us to conduct an exit interview.  Funny how the visible church is becoming more and more like the world it is 'trying to transform'; all based on the business model.  So the Admin Assistant found the following on the web somewhere and told us to adapt it.  I ran across it recently in one of my folders.  I don't think we ever used it; it seemed so contrived and quite frankly un-churchlike.  I am going to adapt it here.  Seems so apropos now.

Exit Interview Questions

What is your primary reason for leaving?

We didn't leave.  We were excommunicated

Did anything trigger your their decision to leave excommunicate you?

Our questioning of their teaching of justification.

What was most satisfying about being a part of the worship team congregation/synod?

Gathering around the Means of Grace in Word and Sacrament and participating in the worship service.

What was least satisfying about being a part of the worship teamcongregation/synod?

It's drifting away from the Lutheran Confessions and Scripture coupled with the lack of concern on the part of leadership on this fact; basing their position on Christian Freedom i.e. Adiophora; and also their unwillingness to discuss it.

What would you change about the worship team congregation/synod?

We would exhort them to study the Book of Concord and apply what it teaches; and that if there was an unwillingness to do so, they should drop the name Lutheran altogether and leave the Synod.  It would be truthful.  We don't know, maybe that is the intent forthcoming already.  They have done so with the school.  Christ the Rock has ditched 'Lutheran' as well as other church bodies in the WELS. 

Did your job duties church experience in the WELS turn out to be as you expected?

No, it did not.

Did you receive enough training to do your job effectively in Bible Study?

At times yes.  Other times no especially during non-pastor lead Bible class.  One laymen taught that the meaning of Ishmael being 'gathered to his people' when he died meant at least to him that Ishmael died a believer.  We did not see that in scripture at all.  matt doebler consistently pushed non-lutheran authors as good sources for Bible study.  The most effective training we  did on our own by the consulting of Scripture and Confessional Lutheran pastors.

Did you receive adequate support to do your job as a laymen?

As long as we didn't upset the status quo.

Did you receive sufficient feedback about your performance between merit reviews holding to pure doctrinal teaching regarding justification?
None at all.  There was no discussion.

Did this company help you to fulfill your career goals church/synod point to Christ as the way to salvation?
At times yes.  But we wonder if they truly realized the efficacy of the Word.  It seemed at least to us at times that how ministries were conducted were more about what 'we did or did not do' than how we preached and taught the Word in truth and purity.

Do you have any tips to help us find your replacement suggestions to offer to prospective members?
If you don't care what the Church catholic means nor what the Lutheran Confessions say, this is the church for you; because this church is all about being relevant in an un-relevant way.

What would you improve to make the worship experience better?
We would remember our passivity in our salvation and reflect it in the way we worship.  We would expect that we would receive the Means of Grace in Word and Sacrament on a weekly basis.

What was the quality of the supervision shepherding you received?
As long as I was willing to be a 'company man' it was good.  When practice/doctrine was questioned, the quality decreased accordingly.

What could your immediate supervisor shepherd do to improve his or her management pastoral style responsibilities?
See himself as less of a corporate officer/pop personality and more as a 'Called Servant of the Word'.

Based on your experience with us, what do you think it takes to succeed at this company successfully grow the church?
Preach and teach the Word in truth and purity; nothing more; nothing less.  The book of Jonah illustrates this perfectly. 

Did any company policies or procedures church doctrines or practices (or any other obstacles) make your job faith more difficult?
Oh yes!  The doctrine of justification as this church preaches enables what WELS leaders call upside-down evangelism; let's ignore the Law and just preach Gospel.  Everyone is forgiven already; they just need to believe it!  Unless of course you confront this false teaching and you will receive the brunt of the Law.

Would you consider working again for this company joining this church/synod in the future?
You are kidding, right? 

Would you recommend working for this company joining this church/synod to your family and friends?
We have family and friends and would exhort them to leave this heterodox organization. 

How do you generally feel about this company church/synod?
The way the prodigal son's father probably felt as he watched his son leave home.  We were born and baptized in the WELS and it saddens us to see it drift away from Scripture and the Book of Concord.

What did you like most about this company church/synod?
Gathering around the Means of Grace in Word and Sacrament and being a part of worship for 40+ years.

What did you like least about this company church/synod?
We believe the rest of the questionnaire will suffice.

What does your new company church offer that this company church doesn't?
An adherence to Scripture and the Confessions not common in today's 'post modern culture'...as if there is something new under the sun.  An emphasis on the Means of Grace in Word and Sacrament and a partaking in the forgiveness of sins weekly in the corporate worship which includes Holy Communion; pastor led Bible study ALWAYS.

Can this company church/synod do anything to encourage you to stay?
Only if it can address satisfactorily the points of our email letter dated May 18, 2011; namely:  justification, stewardship, pastor's role; women's role; music; Lord's Supper; liturgy; church growth methodology; fellowship with Christ the Rock Church; all in the light of God's Word.

Before After deciding to leave being excommunicated, did you investigate a transfer within the company church/synod?
No.  There seems to be a commonality of problems in the WELS that manifested themselves quite evidently at Holy Word and within the Capitol Circuit of the South Central District of the WELS. 

Did anyone in this company church/synod discriminate against you, harass you or cause hostile working membership conditions?
Yes.  Pastor Patterson and the church leadership would not discuss the doctrine of justification with us.  Pastor Patterson's belittling of Joe in front of a church officer and Pastor Gurgel while accusing Joe of misleading his wife, Lisa and harassing her at her work.  The District President, Pastor Vilas Glaeske dismissed our case on the grounds we were accepted into another fellowship when in fact it was their excommunication of our fellowship that precipitated our seeking out of another fellowship.  Furthermore, when we were alerted to the fact by a member of the church that Holy Word was conducting a smear campaign of the Krohns in a 'bible class'; that Holy Word leaders were telling the laity that we had fallen away from the true faith and angrily so; the members were searched out and taken to task for speaking about it.

Any other comments?
No.  Any other pertinent facts regarding our situation can be reviewed on my blog.  There was a pretty good discussion about justification going on here, but after the recent comment by Pastor Webber of the ELS who is in fellowship with the WELS, he has dashed all hopes that WELS is an orthodox Christian organization.  May the Lord have mercy on us all!!! 

Hopeful Optimism and Unhelpful Behaviors: A Response to the ACELC | CyberBrethren-A Lutheran Blog

Habemus papam!
McCain can call himself a pastor while ducking parish work for 20+ years, because he is Matt Harrison's campaign manager.
Poor Hapless, to have a helper like this one.

Hopeful Optimism and Unhelpful Behaviors: A Response to the ACELC | CyberBrethren-A Lutheran Blog:

"Pastor Bolland, if you could only but step back and see the incredible hubris demonstrated in your comment. Simply put, brother, you are running when you have not been sent. You are assuming duties and responsibilities not given to you. You are using methods and tactics that are, in their very nature, schismatic."

'via Blog this'

I use Blog This! for bilge like this when I do not have the stomach to kelm the whole farrago of nonsense, contradictions, and tomfoolery.

Ichaslang Lexicon: Important Additions Threaten the Oxford English Dictionary's Size and Scope

 For troublesome words, consult the convenient and amusing:

Ichaslang Lexicon

To Krohn - To encourage someone to write a letter or meet with a pastor to discuss doctrine, the first step in excommunicating a person who actually follows that advice. Because of the Appleton incident, which was almost identical, this term is considered synonymous with Rick-Rolling.

Rick-Rolling - Not to be confused with the April Fool's joke. Rick-Rolling is the process of encouraging someone to write a letter to and meet with those WELS clergy who are promoting false doctrine, plagiarism, and deception. This is better than April's Fool, because the Doctrinal Pussycat ducks the meeting and leaves a letter blaming Ichabod for the mess he has created. Next the pastors excommunicate the member who followed WELS advice and the DP agrees. Rick-Rolling is jolly good fun for the rollers but not for the rollee. Synonymous with Krohning someone.

Will the Intrepids Overcome Their Trepidations? Kreuter Asks Crucial Questions

Anonymous said...

Pastor Webber: What should a person do whose been denied the Sacrament by his pastor (and the local DP) for objecting to the notion that 'all people are forgiven before they are born"?

Pastor Spencer: Do you believe that if a WELS pastor denies a WELS member communion he is, in effect, saying that the person is outside of Grace, and unrepentant of sin, and without repentance for the sin in question, is damned?

Pastor Rydecki: According to Lutheran Orthodox teaching, what is the effect or result on a Pastor who misuses the office of the keys--namely, one who declares someone to be outside of grace and withholds the Sacrament from someone-- when that someone did nothing wrong, but rather proclaimed and defended truth.


I would like your opinion of the Joe Krohn situation, because we are not only talking about the dreadful shame that is the Krohns leaving the WELS, but we are also talking about a few pastors and laymen at Holy Word who I believe should be approached and encouraged to repent.

David Kreuter

Alabama Judge Gives Criminals Choice: Go to Jail or Go to Church | NBC Miami

Alabama Judge Gives Criminals Choice: Go to Jail or Go to Church | NBC Miami: "A small-town judge in Alabama is giving non-violent offenders a choice at sentencing: go to jail or go to church.

Under a program dubbed "Operation Restore Our Community," the city judge in Bay Minette lets misdemeanor offenders serve time and pay a fine or go to church every Sunday for a year, according to WKRG.com."

'via Blog this'

Always Looking - Never Finding: Stormtroopers on Chipmunks! Thrice Woe! We Are Chip-Wrecked

AC V has left a new comment on your post "UOJ Stormtroopers Retreating from Their Death-Star...":

Webber just couldn't help himself:

By the way, I do not concede that the "objective" side of justification is not taught in the Confessions. With the understanding that forgiveness and justification are essentially synonymous in meaning, the quotation from St. Ambrose quoted approvingly in Apology IV:103 teaches it most clearly.

Stop the dichotomy already. There is one Justification and it is by Faith Alone.

---

Augsburg Apology, IV, #103f.
103] Here and there among the Fathers similar testimonies are extant. For Ambrose says in his letter to a certain Irenaeus: Moreover, the world was subject to Him by the Law for the reason that, according to the command of the Law, all are indicted, and yet, by the works of the Law, no one is justified, i.e., because, by the Law, sin is perceived, but guilt is not discharged. The Law, which made all sinners, seemed to have done injury, but when the Lord Jesus Christ came, He forgave to all sin which no one could avoid, and, by the shedding of His own blood, blotted out the handwriting which was against us. This is what he says in Rom. 5:20: "The Law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Because after the whole world became subject, He took away the sin of the whole world, as he [John] testified, saying John 1:29: "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." And on this account let no one boast of works, because no one is justified by his deeds. But he who is righteous has it given him because he was justified after the laver [of Baptism]. Faith, therefore, is that which frees through the blood of Christ, because he is blessed "whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered," Ps. 32:1,104] These are the words of Ambrose, which clearly favor our doctrine; he denies justification to works, and ascribes to faith that it sets us free 105] through the blood of Christ. Let all the Sententiarists, who are adorned with magnificent titles, be collected into one heap. For some are called angelic; others, subtile, and others irrefragable [that is, doctors who cannot err.] When all these have been read and reread, they will not be of as much aid for understanding Paul as is this one passage of Ambrose.

***

GJ - I am not sure what Webber is trying to mine from the Apology - justification without faith? The Halle  concepts are certainly not visible to the naked eye. If he means to say that Objective Justification is a synonom for the atonement, the he should drop the Knapp-Woods double justification scheme from Halle and teach Biblical, Lutheran doctrine instead. Simply citing this paragraph of the Apology will not sway anyone except a graduate of The Surrendered Fort, 1980s (like Paul T. McCain, Rolf Preus, et al.).

ELCA members commemorate Sept. 11 with ecumenical, interfaith partners - News Releases - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

Via Rogue Lutheran


ELCA members commemorate Sept. 11 with ecumenical, interfaith partners - News Releases - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America:



"At the conclusion of St. Peter's 11:00 a.m. worship service, members of the congregation moved in a silent procession to Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church, where they were joined by people and clergy of Admiral Family Circle Islamic Community and the Mosque of the Islamic Brotherhood. They were also joined by members of the Islamic Cultural Center of New York, Christ Church United Methodist, Temple Shaaray Tefila and Central Synagogue. A brief interfaith service of readings, prayers and hymns followed."

...

The commemoration included speakers and participants from the ELCA and Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod including Hanson, the Rev. Stephen P. Bouman, executive director of ELCA Congregational and Synodical Mission, and the Rev. David Benke, president of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod Atlantic District.

     The Rev. Robert A. Rimbo, bishop of the ELCA Metropolitan New York Synod, participated and noted that the service was patterned after a worship service that took place at Holy Trinity shortly after the attacks.

'via Blog this'

UOJ Stormtroopers Retreating from Their Death-Star

AC V has left a new comment on your post "Intrepid WELS Members and Pastors Supporting Justi...":

Here is the crux of the UOJ issue as correctly confessed by Kurt Marquart in a post by David Jay Webber on Intrepids:

"No one actually has forgiveness unless and until he receives it by faith."

UOJ-ers say "you have forgiveness whether you believe it or not."

***

GJ - I will be more impressed when Webber and Rolf Preus repudiate the universal declaration of forgiveness that has fueled their endless posts in the past. That may be touchy business with Shrinker in-laws and outlaws in the extended family.

Luther on Faith and Love

In the leper it teaches us faith, in Christ it teaches us love. Now, as I have often said, faith and love constitute the whole character of the Christian. Faith receives, love gives. Faith brings man to God, love brings man to his fellow. Through faith he permits God to do him good, through love he does good to his brother man. For whoever believes has every thing from God, and is happy and rich. Therefore he needs henceforth nothing more, but all he lives and does, he orders for the good and benefit of his neighbor, and through love he does to his neighbor as God did to him through faith. Thus he reaps good from above through faith, and gives good below through love. Against this kind of life work-righteous persons with their merits and good works terribly contend for they do works only to serve themselves, they live only unto themselves, and do good without faith. These two principles, faith and love, we will now consider as they appear in the lepers and in Christ.

In the first place it is a characteristic of faith to presume to trust God's grace, and it forms a bright vision and refuge in God, doubting nothing it thinks God will have regard for his faith, and not forsake it. For where there is no such vision and confidence, there is no true faith, and there is also no true prayer nor any seeking after God. But where it exists it makes man bold and anxious freely to bring his troubles unto God, and earnestly to pray for help.

Luther's Sermon on the Ten Lepers, Luke 17:11-19