Bivens on UOJ. Confusing the Atonement and Justification, Omitting the Means of Grace

F. Bivens

AC V has left a new comment on your post "Bivens, McCain, and Kilcrease Have No Concept of t...":

More Bivens here:

"Regarding the proclamation of explicit gospel, no finer example of this can perhaps be found than in the way we announce absolution in our worship assemblies. To illustrate this point, a question and answer drawn from the Q & A service on the WELS Web site is here reproduced:

Q: Hello, A Baptist friend of mine is having trouble with pastors forgiving a congregation's sins. Could you please explain to me what gives pastors or others the right to forgive sins. I see James 5:16 and John 20:23. Still kind of confused. Thank you.

A: The Bible verses you mention are appropriate. It may also be said that all passages that invite and urge us to preach the gospel are also rightly mentioned. To preach the gospel is to proclaim the forgiveness of sins for the sake of Christ and his atoning work. No one will really understand what the Lutheran church teaches about "absolution" (declaring forgiveness of sins) unless he clearly understands the truth of objective or universal justification. That is at the very heart of what we believe and teach. Long ago God has already forgiven every human being his or her sins. Christ's life
and death as our substitute is finished. Nothing more needs to be done by the sinner himself. A Christian can go to any person on earth and rightly say to him, "Your sins are forgiven." To put it another way: The forgiveness of sins is not a potential fact that becomes a reality only when sinners
do something to qualify for it, or even when the gospel is proclaimed and personally received through faith. It has long been a reality to be proclaimed to sinners without conditions. When Jesus Christ rose from the dead - 2000 years ago, he was raised because of our justification - because we had already been justified (Romans 4:25). 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 and Romans 3:22-23 stress the same truth. This is why we may speak to one another to say "Your sins are forgiven" or "In the name of God, I forgive your sins." This is why a pastor, acting on behalf of all the Christians in the assembly, says the same thing.

This is not arrogance or trying to "play God." It is serving as God's ambassadors and messengers, which is what we are. Perhaps your Baptist friend is thinking, "This should not be done in a large group, since there may be people who are really not repentant or who are hypocrites in that church. You cannot tell them they are forgiven, can you?" 


We answer in this way: "Yes, we can and must say this, for God has invited and commanded us to do so. Jesus died and took away their sins, reconciling them to him - whether they believe it or not." Lest we be misunderstood, we also say that if we know someone to be impenitent or a hypocrite, we will first speak to that person about sin, God's wrath, and eternal damnation in hell to expose his sinfulness and allow the Holy Spirit to convict him. That is also why the absolution in our public assemblies is always preceded by a general confession of sins and expression of repentance. But the fact remains - From God's standpoint Christ died for them and took away their guilt. We tell people this whether they are believers or unbelievers. And we hope and pray that this time they will believe us so that they too will know it is true and rejoice with us in the amazing grace of God" (F. Bivens, Archived in "Forgiveness and Repentance Section," Set 11).

http://wlsessays.net/files/BivensMessage.pdf

***

Mequon is breeding the next generation of
UOJ Stormtroopers.

GJ - UOJ simply means the entire world is absolved. Everything after that is a matter of indifference, an adiaphoron.

Nevertheless, the UOJ Stormtroopers engage in a constant Ministry of Condemnation. When the LaughQuesters are not denouncing everyone else, they are busy denouncing each other, biting and devouring with unwholesome glee.

The UOJ-Fuller-Jeske coalition will not rest until they remove every single layman or pastor who dares to raise an eyebrow about their fantasies. It is not just a WELS fetish. UOJ is LCMS, ELS, and ELCA, too.

---

RE: GJ - "UOJ simply means the entire world is absolved. Everything after that is a matter of indifference, an adiaphoron."

Here's "Bivens on UOJ: Omitting the Means of Grace." At the first WELS National Conference on Worship, Music and the Arts in 1996 Bivens presented an essay entitled "The Primary Doctrine in Its Primary Setting: Objective Justification and Lutheran Worship"
[Carthage College, Kenosha, Wisconsin, July 23, 1996]. Not a whiff about the sacraments in this foundational essay. Instead UOJ's influence on worship principles leads to these conclusions:

"Aside from 'substance,' however, may we or should we change our worship style? If so, to what degree? The doctrine of justification doesn’t address this question directly other than pointing us to the freedom
we possess in Christ and calling us to exercise that freedom in love and for the edification of souls. (AC V - JBFA answers the question! Christ achieved forgiveness on the cross and he distributes it through the means of grace! No need for the means of grace if the purpose of the divine service is only to remind people of forgiveness achieved and distributed 2,000 years ago on the cross!) What must be stressed is that, in matters of genuine adiaphora, we are to cultivate truly evangelical and truly ecumenical perspectives. There is no such thing as 'the Lutheran liturgy.' Purely external forms are legitimately influenced by histories of nations, peoples, cultures and languages. A key is to seek and find forms that are appropriate for communicating the truth of the gospel in its fullness, in a particular setting. Some words, tunes and actions are ill suited in certain situations, at best give mixed signals, and will disrupt serious efforts at educating and edifying.

And what do we possess that can bring about such a change in people? The gospel, the truth of justification. So what the unconverted likes least, he needs most. What doesn’t attract him at all is what he desperately needs to be attracted to. Our task, as always, is to seek some point of contact where we can present the gospel to people who aren’t explicitly interested in it. Our gracious God has justified every individual person. God’s will and our desire is that each person be brought to understand and embrace this truth. So the primary doctrine does point us to care for and strive to deal with people individually."

So, self-centered worship forms and gimmicks are fair game so long as they educate people of Christ's forgiveness imputed to all people 2,000 years ago whether they believe it or not. Your job is to convince them of that truth. Now get cracking!

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/BivensPrimary.pdf 

---

LutherRocks has left a new comment on your post "Bivens on UOJ. Confusing the Atonement and Justifi...":

I don't think these guys know what objective and subjective mean. They call it OJ but then speak the whole time in subjective terms. Compare this quote with a definition from Dictionary.com.

"A Christian can go to any person on earth and rightly say to him, "Your sins are forgiven." "

"But the fact remains - From God's standpoint Christ died for them and took away their guilt. We tell people this whether they are believers or unbelievers."

"sub·jec·tive   [suhb-jek-tiv] Show IPA
adjective
1.
existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought ( opposed to objective).
2.
pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3.
placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.
4.
Philosophy . relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself.
5.
relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience."

Jolly Good Laughs on LutherQuest (sic)

Pastor Rolf Preus demanded that Joe Krohn define Objective Justification

Joe replied:

Pastor Preus...I will capitulate to the late Pastor Vernon Harley who laid it out in his 1986 essay much more eloquently than I could. He stated:

"That which took place prior to and apart from faith is the Vicarious Satisfaction of Christ, the Redemption. Justification, according to Scriptures and our Confessions, is by grace through faith. Truly Objective Justification is the forensic activity of God by which He through the Gospel creates faith in Christ’s redemptive work, clothes the sinner in Christ’s righteousness and so makes the sinner righteous in His sight and in His forum accounts this righteousness of Christ to faith as He did with Abraham. God
declares His believers to be what He Himself has made them to be in His sight -- righteous and holy for Christ’s sake. These are the ones He has given “the status of saints.” Justification belongs where our Lutheran Catechism has it in the Third Article of the Creed." Vernon Harley, LCMS Pastor


GJ - I met with the Kokomo families and also with Pastor Harley and his wife. They lived not far from New Ulm. Pastor Harley pointed out that his essays had circulated and no one had found fault with his explanations or exegesis. He is just one indication of the widespread rejection of UOJ in the LCMS.

Franz Linden responded to Joe Krohn thus:

This is not at all the objective justification of Holy Scripture. It is the lie of Osiander. It turns the judicial and forensic declaration of God into a medical and physical act by Him "making" the sinner righteous through faith rather than declaring the sinner to be righteous for Christ's sake. It causes the sinner to look inwardly for assurance of his justification rather than looking outwardly to the objective declaration of God in His Word and Sacraments. 


I re-read the E. Fredrich essay on Osiander at the WELS Holy of Holies, the Essay Files, a gathering of atheists, Enthuiasts, and one Lutheran (E. Fredrich).

Andreas Osiander

 http://www.wlsessays.net/files/FredrichOsiander.pdf

There is no connection between Osiander and the Harley quotation. Osiander, a brilliant man, criticized Luther on justification and held more of a Roman attitude.

Linden's name-calling is a typical red herring: cite an obscure name and invent a fanciful connection, without giving any source or warrant for the comparison.

The UOJ specialists also reject Luther on justification by faith. One indication is the response to Joe's question about whether the original Sodomites were righteous.

Linden replied:

Yes. Those who perished in Sodom were declared righteous for Christ's sake by God. More than that, everyone who will end up in hell for all eternity have been declared righteous by God for Christ's sake. This is the Bible's clear teaching. 

David, son of Rolf, son of Robert, son of Jake the Governor, thinks Joe is confused! And we supposed to sit and gape in awe at their words.

Those who to study logical fallacies and flimsy argumentation should spend a day at LutherQuest(sic). One ELS member said he read it for laughs. That is why I call it LaughQuest.

---

Eric Phillips correctly told Franz Linden:

Franz, 
Osiander taught that the righteousness of faith is the essential righteousness of God indwelling believers, rather than the personal righteousness of the God-Man being reckoned as their own. There isn't even a whiff of that position in anything Joe's said here.

Bivens, McCain, and Kilcrease Have No Concept of the Keys

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Bivens - UOJ Jedi Knight, Fuller Alumnus":

UOJ obliterates the Key to Retain Sin given to the entire priesthood of believers. If the emisseries of the Pope, Kilcrease and McCain, didn't provide their rational explanations for the American Lutheran's they'd have no excuse at all for believing and teaching such blasphemy.

The Lutheran Confessions made this statement regarding the current condition of the Lutheran Synods and their similarities to the Roman Catholic church, "6] Let any one of the adversaries come forth and tell us when remission of sins takes place. O good God, what darkness there is! They doubt whether it is in attrition or in contrition that remission of sins occurs. And if it occurs on account of contrition, what need is there of absolution, what does the power of the keys effect, if sins have been already remitted?…" http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_10_repentance.php

***

GJ - The UOJ forces are getting an acute case of flop-sweat, because their shallow arguments are refuted by:

1. The clear meaning of the Scriptures.
   
2. The writings of Luther.
   
3. The Book of Concord - Luther, Melanchthon, Chytraeus, Chemnitz, Andreae
   
4. The post-Concord theologians, heirs of Luther, Melanchthon, Chytraeus, Andreae, and Chemnitz.
   
5. The historical background of double justification from the Calvinistic Pietism of Halle University.
   
6. The simple fact of UOJ not being accepted or taught synod-wide in the Olde Synodical Conference - the old German Missouri catechism, the Gausewitz Catechism, and the current LCMS KJV catechism.
7. Robert Preus' Justification and Rome, where Huber's UOJ is repudiated.

I Know That My Redeemer Lives

1. I know that my Redeemer lives;
What comfort this sweet sentence gives!
He lives, He lives, who once was dead;
He lives, my ever-living Head.

2. He lives triumphant from the grave,
He lives eternally to save,
He lives all-glorious in the sky,
He lives exalted there on high.

3. He lives to bless me with His love,
He lives to plead for me above.
He lives my hungry soul to feed,
He lives to help in time of need.

4. He lives to grant me rich supply,
He lives to guide me with His eye,
He lives to comfort me when faint,
He lives to hear my soul's complaint.

5. He lives to silence all my fears,
He lives to wipe away my tears
He lives to calm my troubled heart,
He lives all blessings to impart.

6. He lives, my kind, wise, heavenly Friend,
He lives and loves me to the end;
He lives, and while He lives, I'll sing;
He lives, my Prophet, Priest, and King.

7. He lives and grants me daily breath;
He lives, and I shall conquer death:
He lives my mansion to prepare;
He Iives to bring me safely there.

8. He lives, all glory to His name!
He lives, my Jesus, still the same.
Oh, the sweet joy this sentence gives,
"I know that my Redeemer lives!"

Go To Dark Gethsemane

"Go to Dark Gethsemane"
by James Montgomery, 1771-1854

1. Go to dark Gethsemane,
Ye that feel the Tempter's power;
Your Redeemer's conflict see,
Watch with Him one bitter hour;
Turn not from His griefs away,
Learn of Jesus Christ to pray.

2. Follow to the judgment-hall,
View the Lord of life arraigned;
Oh, the wormwood and the gall!
Oh, the pangs His soul sustained!
Shun not suffering, shame, or loss;
Learn of Him to bear the cross.

3. Calvary's mournful mountain climb;
There, adoring at His feet,
Mark that miracle of time,
God's own sacrifice complete.
"It is finished!" bear Him cry;
Learn of Jesus Christ to die.

4. Early hasten to the tomb
Where they laid His breathless clay;
All is solitude and gloom,--
Who hath taken Him away?
Christ is risen! He meets our eyes.
Savior, teach us so to rise
.
The Lutheran Hymnal
Hymn #159
Text: Lam. 3:19
Author: James Montgomery, 1820, 1825
Composer: Richard Redhead, 1853
Tune: "Gethsemane"

Bivens - UOJ Jedi Knight, Fuller Alumnus

Frosty will gladly answer any questions,
then Boba Fett, in the back, will take you out!

AC V has left a new comment on your post ""LutherQuest - For Laughs"":

Confusion of Law and Gospel

or

Bivens' April 2012 FiCL gobbledygook on how to use the Keys.

In the April 2012 Forward in Christ (sssshhhhh: "A Lutheran Voice"), contributing editor Forrest Bivens, a professor at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary says this in answer to the question:

"Should we forgive others for all the sins they may commit against us? If they show no remorse or repentence, are we still to offer forgivenes?"

In his answer, Bivens bends over backwards to keep UOJ front and center. His practical advice:

"Especially to those who have wronged us yet have given no evidence of contrition before God or reliance on Jesus as their sin-bearer, we may say:

'I fully and freely forgive you, sinner to sinner. I hold no grudge against you, seek no retaliation, and will keep no record of wrongs. I have no desire or need for this. My Lord Jesus is my ultimate Protector, and he will satisfy justice in the end. Vengeance is his to give, not mine.

'But please understand that this actually may mean very little for your long-term well-being. If and as long as you do not repent before God of your sin, you do not enjoy the forgiveness Christ earned for you. You forfeit personal benefit of his pardon. You have my forgiveness, given cheerfully in love. But just like me, a sinner like you, you need the personal enjoyment of Christ's forgiveness, which is also freely given. I am willing to do anything I can to help you enjoy this.'"

Biven concludes:

"Our responsibility is to forgive others fully, unconditionally. As we communicate this, let us also speak wisely as well as lovingly so that we will best serve our neighbor."

I have a simpler way, the words of Jesus himself: "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld" (John 20:23).

---

AC V has left a new comment on your post "Bivens - UOJ Jedi Knight, Fuller Alumnus":

Let's back up a little. In the paragraphs preceding the advice on how we must "unconditionally" forgive the unrepentant, Bivens reluctantly says,

"You might also be thinking of our high privilege to forgive or not forgive sinners in administering 'the keys' in ways that reflect prior repentance or impenitence (see Matthew 18:15-20; John 20:21-23). This tells us much about how we are to communicate with fellow sinners as God's representatives on earth, (UOJ drum roll please) but nothing removes from us the sacred, personal obligation to forgive unconditionally."

He goes on to explain that "unconditionally" means we give forgiveness "especially to those who have wronged us yet have given no evidence of contrition before God or reliance on Jesus as their sin-bearer."

Wow, just, wow!

UOJ advocate Jungkuntz (Northwestern College) became chairman of the board
of the first Lutheran seminary to train open homosexuals.

***

GJ - I have to dab my eyes when I read such touching stories of forgiveness from WELS. They are tears of laughter, not wracking sobs of heart-felt relief. No sect is more nasty, vindictive, and unforgiving than WELS.

Bivens is another UOJ deceiver, bragging to his entire circuit that he went to Fuller Seminary, then wondering at Mequon where I got that story from.

Few people write as poorly about doctrine as Bivens. I hope he keeps this up and exposes the doctrinal depravity of WELS even more vigorously.

---

bruce-church (http://bruce-church.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Bivens - UOJ Jedi Knight, Fuller Alumnus":

Frosty Biven's argument is illogical. First he says that we must forgive a brother unconditionally though he shows no sign of contrition, and then that brother enjoys our forgiveness, but then he says that God also forgives unconditionally, yet that person does NOT enjoy that forgiveness unless there is contrition and faith. Thus they dress up the very conditional forgiveness on God's part as though it were unconditioned by the presence of active faith reacting to law and gospel preaching.

By the way, since God supplies the faith ("with God belief is possible" - Matt 19:29; the Gospel is the power of God - 2 Tim 1:8), this doctrine taught by Orthodox "Old" Lutherans is not synergism as the later Pietistic Reformed Lutherans like CFW Walther charged.

Another Means of Grace Message from Mark Jeske

From Time of Grace, Mark Jeske.
Or was it Oprah Winfrey?

Not we or thee,
but must Jeske-me.
The Photoshop came from elsewhere.

Venerable Bede - A Hymn of Glory Let Us Sing

"A Hymn of Glory Let Us Sing"
by The Venerable Bede, 673-735

Translated by Benjamin Webb, 1820-1885

1. A Hymn of glory let us sing:
New songs throughout the world shall ring:
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Chirst, by a road before untrod,
Ascendeth to the throne of God.
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

2. The holy apostolic band
Upon the Mount of Olives stand;
Alleluia! Alleluia!
And with His followers they see
Jesus' resplendent majesty.
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

3. To whom the angels, drawing nigh,
"Why stand and gaze upon the sky?
Alleluia! Alleluia!
This is the Savior!" thus they say;
"This is His noble triumph-day."
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

4. "Again shall ye behold Him so
As ye today have seen Him go,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
In glorious pomp ascending high,
Up to the portals of the sky."
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

5. Oh, grant us thitherward to tend
And with unwearied hearts ascend
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Unto Thy kingdom's throne, where Thou,
As is our faith, art seated now.
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

6. Be Thou our Joy and strong Defense
Who art our future Recompense:
Alleluia! Alleluia!
So shall the light that springs from Thee
Be ours through all eternity.
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

7. O risen Christ, ascended Lord,
All praise to Thee let earth accord,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Who art, while endless ages run,
With Father and with Spirit One.
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

The Lutheran Hymnal
Hymn #212
Text: Acts 1: 11
Author: The Venerable Bede, 735
Translated by: Benjamin Webb, 1854, alt.
Titled: "Hymnum canamus gloriae"
Tune: "Lasst uns erfreuen"
1st Published in: _Geistliche Kirchengesaeng_
Town: Cologne, 1623

VirtueOnline - News - Exclusives - New Hampshire Episcopal Diocese Could Elect Another Gay Bishop

Rev. William Rich, Senior Associate Rector for Christian Formation at Trinity Church in Boston in the Diocese of Massachusetts .

 

VirtueOnline - News - Exclusives - New Hampshire Episcopal Diocese Could Elect Another Gay Bishop:


When the Episcopal House of Bishops and Standing Committees in the Episcopal Church cast their votes for a new bishop in the Diocese of New Hampshire, they will have an opportunity to vote for yet another non-celibate homogenital bishop to replace Bishop Gene Robinson. It will be déjà vu all over again for this diocese.

On the short ballot of three nominees is the Rev. William Rich, Senior Associate Rector for Christian Formation at Trinity Church in Boston in the Diocese of Massachusetts. Massachusetts is one of the most revisionist dioceses in the Episcopal Church. If he wins, he will bring his "husband", Dr. Donald Schiermer, along to the party.

The other two candidates are the Rev. A. Robert Hirschfeld, who serves as rector of Grace Episcopal Church in Amherst, MA, and the Rev. Penelope Bridges, the rector of St. Francis Episcopal Church in Great Falls, VA. None of the candidates are from the Diocese of New Hampshire.

A shrewd observer noted that the other two nominees acknowledged going through divorce. "I'm quite accustomed to liberal dioceses not bothering to offer even a token conservative, but this is the first time (at least since I began watching) that a diocese did not present a heterosexual nominee who is divorce-free."



In a statement Rich said, "I am honored and humbled by the trust New Hampshire is placing in me."

Should he win, and there is every likelihood that he will, Rich will replace Bishop Gene Robinson, who has been the bishop of Diocese of New Hampshire since 2004. Robinson is the first consecrated gay bishop in the Episcopal Church. If elected, Rich would be the third gay bishop following the election last year of Mary Glasspool, Assistant Bishop of the Diocese of Los Angeles, an avowed lesbian.

At the beginning of May, the three nominees will take part in three "Meet and Greet" events that will take place at various locations in the Diocese. The diocese votes May 19. The new bishop will be consecrated Tenth Bishop of New Hampshire at St. Paul's Church in Concord on Jan. 5, 2013.

Figures from the Episcopal Church's Office of Congregational Vitality indicate that the diocese lost members from 2004 to 2007 and began regaining them in 2007. As of 2010, both baptized members and average Sunday attendance remained lower than in 2003. Pledge and plate income, however, steadily increased from 2004 to 2007, and remained higher than in 2003.

Hirschfeld has compared Robinson's election to the parting of the Red Sea.

"It seems to me that something in our Church has been split wide open for all God's children to step in," Hirschfeld wrote. "And it happened in New Hampshire, and the good people of your diocese bravely, miraculously set forth."

Hirschfeld has followed other priests in The Episcopal Church by declaring a moratorium on presiding at heterosexual weddings maintaining that homosexuals are disqualified from such blessings. He described it as a "justice issue."

Jeff Walton, a spokesman from the Institute on Religion and Democracy's "Anglican Action" program, said he was skeptical that any of the three nominees would be able to help revive a diocese that, like the rest of its denomination, is suffering from declining membership.

"The parishes that Bridges and Hirschfeld led have had either flat or declining attendance during their tenure, while the large Boston parish that Rich serves has seen an almost 40 percent drop in attendance over the past decade," said Walton.

"Considering that the Diocese of New Hampshire has struggled with a 13 percent membership decline and almost 20 percent attendance decline over the past decade, I don't see how any of these three candidates bring the needed experience to revitalize the diocese."

The consecration of Robinson tore the fabric of the Anglican Communion from which it has never recovered. Every act such as this only distances itself further from the Anglican mainstream. Next month GAFCON archbishops from the Global South will meet in London and will consider, among other things, their place and future in the Anglican Communion.

This past week Archbishop Rowan Williams announced he is fleeing back to academia nine years before his retirement age. It seems he is unable to handle the growing schism in the Anglican Communion and his failure to bring to heel errant provinces like The Episcopal Church for their communion breaking acts like these consecrations.


'via Blog this'

"LutherQuest - For Laughs"

Art by Norma Boeckler.

"The only people I know who have a problem with OJ/SJ are here on LQ. All 4 of you."

You haven't been here yet.

Dennis Boettcher, Kantor (Boettden)