Friday, July 29, 2011

Intrepid Calls WELS Convention -
Punk, Pass, and Kick


Pastor Spencersaid...
I recommend we save ourselves a whole bunch of key-strokes in the future when talking about this pathetic convention. From now on I'm going to refer to it simply as "WELS PPK," or just plain "ppk." That stands, of course, for "Punk, Pass, and Kick." They punted on all difficult decisions, passed just about everything else, and kicked the confessionals who signed the first Time of Grace Memorial in the teeth.

In my humble opinion.

Pastor Spencer

----

Hey Mister Lindee,

I guess I wasn't even thinking about a corporate act. I wrote "we" meaning individuals. I think that is where the real power lies because it's in the hearts of individuals where the Holy Spirit works. I think we each need to be talking to our grannies and our 8th graders, although in the process certainly referring them to Intrepid any anyone else with viable and honest analysis of the NNIV.

I think an incorporation and wonton advertisement of IL is a very good idea, but if we each rely on the internet and use it as an excuse not to have hard conversations with our own people nothing will change.

I for one am not looking forward to having this conversation with some of my family because they are the sort that will go along with the WELS regardless of anything. They will be uncomfortable with the idea of a rift between WELS people and the conversation will get turned aside a dozen times to avoid the necessity of making a judgement call that will invariably alienate them from someone in our family.

How many other deeply-rooted WELS folks will be forced to make judgement calls--picking sides and perhaps, (as it will in my family) cause BIG TIME family division? I suppose that quite a number of families are in that same position.

You see why I might not post my name with comments like this? Christian discernment is already going to cause familial problems and it won't help reading about it on the internet. I hope IL admin will post this unsigned comment--and I promise to sign my name in the future.

But I'm sure everybody here can sympathize. The WELS is close-knit and we 're all going to have to make difficult calls. A great battle to fight is one against the NIV 2011, but it's got to start with our own families.

--Bored 
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LutherRocks said... 
 
The NNIV is a great rallying point...however that is not the root cause. The problem is a willingness to compromise for the sake of union and mission...but soon enough all will be compromised away and WELS will be standing on sand... because after all...all this discussing of doctrine gets in the way of saving souls.

Joe

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AP said...
I'm just going to first say the obvious thing here: If the translation WELS adopts needs a disclaimer insert (an entire booklet!) warning readers of the various false teachings or errors it promotes then maybe--just maybe--we ought not to adopt it in the first place. Honestly, how many people are even going to buy the NIV 2011 if the first thing they need to do is read about how full of errors it is!

I just heard Professor Wendland say during this morning's discussion that the committee believes that there is no better translation option than the NIV 2011. How can they possibly have come to this conclusion when the thing needs a booklet (not a sheet of paper but a booklet) to explain its shortcomings?

It at least appears that this decision is going to be put off for a while. In any case, the most powerful way to make one's voice heard on the matter is by voting with your dollars. A major drop in NPH sales will get someone's attention. Before anyone gets the wrong idea here, I am not calling for a 1765-like organized boycott. I am, again, just stating the obvious I think.

Dr. Aaron Palmer

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Dr. Palmer

Touché.

Let us ask ourselves what Luther might think of a translation that needed an addendum to warn readers of error. Am I wrong to suppose he'd say: "Well, go fix the errors before you publish it, ya morons!"?

If the WELS (or any church) feels the need to write an 'warning of errors' for the Holy Scriptures aren't they placing upon Scripture something extra needed for proper understanding of it? The Errata booklet would be nothing less than a key to Scripture. And THAT necessitates the question: Is the NNIV safe to read without the extra pamphlet? Probably not, If the errata pamphlet-writers truly feel, in good faith, the need to write the pamphlet.

So if you can't safely read the Bible without also knowing and studying the pamphlet, how is the pamphlet any less than Scripture? If the Bible and its list of warnings are inseparable, how is that not disregarding the warning in Rev 22:18?

Fair question, I think. I'd be curious to know what someone in favor of the pamphlet idea would say.

David Kreuter

Kicking the NNIV Decision Down the Road
Is Part of the Plan To Adopt It







California wrote about WELS kicking NNIV down the road.

WELSians need to remember that "consensus building" does not mean seriously considering objections to an agenda already determined, in this case acceptance of NNIV.

In the parlance of the dialectic operational in WELS these days, consensus building is a process to discuss - so objections and reasons for objections can be identified in order to facilitate circumventing objections. If some absolute objections or resistance can't be circumvented or disarmed, the "refusniks" will be isolated and eventually eliminated one way or the other "down the road". That's how the PPBS, Management by Objectives, Dialectic works, folks.

It may have been better had the the convention voted to dive in and adopt the NNIV July 2011, for it would have avoided what will snare many, disillusion others, and cause gradual pain and dissension until the process arrives at the predetermined "consensus" allowing what the translation committee recommended in the first place. Those who can't accept NNIV could find it more clearly obvious that they need to depart, which a remnant will end up doing anyway. But the body of WELLS will find it difficult, for they have sat in the pews for a generation softened up with NIV which should never have been accepted. The original "KJV has to go" agenda prevailed, and NIV was as good as any to accomplish that, warts and all. Now it doesn't really matter to the change agents what replaces NIV, just as long as it isn't KJV.

***

GJ - Several long-term WELS members have noticed that their pastors and good friends from the sect have switched positions over the years, adjusting to Holy Mother Synod's flip from one side to another.

The King James Version is only one example, but the key one, as California has often stated. WELS got rid of her for disagreeing and raising issues. They excommunicated her for doing what they said members must do - go to the individual and write letters. Does that sound familiar? Texas? Appleton? Anyone? Anyone?

At one point, someone wrote me, the Sausage Factory students were graduating with a hatred of the King James, which is really the English version of Luther's Bible. Just as Luther's Bible established the hallmarks of the German language, so Tyndale's established English (with some help from the Earl of Oxford, aka Shakespeare). The literary achievement of both Bibles is itself a tribute to the literary abilities of both men, truly God's chosen instruments for the task, even though others helped and advanced the efforts.

Although Pope Paul the Unlearned dislikes the NNIV and questions its adoption in WELS, I heard no objections from his massive desk at CPH. His recent post cast aspersions on the New KJV (which the ELS likes) without giving reasons beyond "the text." I doubt whether McCain understands the text issues. The text fantasies of Tischendorf, Wescott and Hort are the foundation for the flight from the best translation, giving people warrant for Anything Goes Bibles.

I read Jester's tirade against the New KJV. John Jeske (aka Jumpin' Jack) was in bed with the NIV from the start, so it is not shocking to find Tom and Mark in the same unionistic frame of mind, just as David Valleskey's father reared him in unionism.

Language is everything in conveying the Word of God. Lenski often discusses the importance of understanding each word in the original, so the WELSian elite are quick to denounce Lenski.

Contemporary Bible Twisters Adopt Mascot:
WELS Finds Problems But Loves It Anyway


Critics dog Moo.


Endorsements from Church and Change Mentors

Smoke and Mirrors


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Brett Meyer said...
Read the bios of the individuals who translated the 2011 NIV.

http://www.niv-cbt.org/translators/

The translators of the NNIV would form a veritable Medusa of false teaching and enthusiasm based on their confession and background. Is it any wonder that the NNIV furthers the Baptist, RCC, Reformed, Pharisaical, Feminist and New Age religious agenda which the apostates in the Lutheran Synods are lusting after?

Bach

LCMS Women's Ordination Advocate Endorses WELS NNIV Position

Marie Meyer is Pastor Herman Otten's sister.
She is consistent in her statements.




ALPB Online Discussion Forum

mariemeyer

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Re: WELS 2011 Convention 7/25-7/29
« Reply #74 on: Today at 10:25:50 AM »
The Translation Evaluation Committee made the best use of the time available to them and did spend the most time working with the NIV2011. Gender inclusive language was a concern to the committee. However the truth regarding male and female roles is clearly taught in NIV2011; it is not a feminist translation.

The above reflects a perspective lacking in the attitude of some LCMS particpants on this Forum toward the NIV2011.

Marie Meyer

---

http://www.niv-cbt.org/translators/

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Contemporary Bible Twisters Adopt Mascot: WELS Fin...":

Read the bios of the individuals who translated the 2011 NIV.

http://www.niv-cbt.org/translators/

The translators of the NNIV would form a veritable Medusa of false teaching and enthusiasm based on their confession and background. Is it any wonder that the NNIV furthers the Baptist, RCC, Reformed, Pharisaical, Feminist and New Age religious agenda which the apostates in the Lutheran Synods are lusting after?

More Mush from the Wimps -
WELS Kicks the NNIV Can Down the Road


From the Pickled Pietists of Pewaukee:

Delegates adopted three resolutions Thursday, July 28, that set the stage for choosing a Bible translation that WELS can use in its publications.

The first resolution thanked the five-person Translation Evaluation Committee (TEC), which has been evaluating the New International Version 2011 and other alternatives for the past year. President Mark Schroeder put the committee together in 2010 because the NIV 1984, the translation currently used in WELS publications, will not be available for use in the near future.

The resolution also asked that the TEC continues to function to educate the synod on the translation principles and to help build a consensus on which translation to use for synod publications.

Rev. Paul Wendland, TEC chairman, says that the committee is already planning a symposium on the topic in November and looking into other ways to keep the conversations going. “I’m really looking forward to a symposium to be held in Mequon where we can hear from all different perspectives,” says Wendland. “Maybe as we talk together all in the same room we can come to a greater consensus.”

Another resolution asked that a task force be appointed to study the feasibility of producing a confessional Lutheran translation and/or study Bible for whatever translation was selected. [GJ - Hahaha. Put Wendland in charge. He will hire Moo.]

The last resolution recommended that the TEC produce a “Final Report” that incorporates input it receives from ongoing evaluation and that the district conventions choose a translation via ballot next summer. The resolution calls for a two-thirds majority vote of delegates at the district conventions; otherwise the decision will be made at the 2013 synod convention or in a special single-issue convention next summer.

The TEC recommended in its report to the convention that the NIV 2011 could be used with a high degree of confidence by our church body. “It’s a translation that is rendered in good, contemporary English. It is very familiar to our people—it won’t involve a large change that would be disruptive. Ninety-seven percent of the words in the new NIV are exactly the same as the old NIV,” says Wendland. “We are concerned about different points, but as we compare them with the other versions we’ve looked at out there we don’t see any other version that takes care of all those problems without adding more of their own.”

Others, however, expressed concern over the TEC’s recommendation of the NIV 2011. Delegate Rev. Paul Naumann from Good Shepherd, Benton Harbor, Mich., says that no translation is perfect, but that he feels the NIV 2011 overuses gender-inclusive language and over interprets messianic prophecies. “In my opinion and the opinion of several others it is the overall weight of objectionable passages that make us prefer to consider another option,” he says.

Naumann was happy that the resolutions give the synod more time to continue this discussion. “I didn’t want us to make a hasty decision,” he says “We need to take the time to do the necessary study and make an informed decision. I think the resolution provides for that.”

“We knew coming in that people wanted to have more time because a consensus in our church body just hasn’t been reached,” Wendland says. “So we need to work really hard looking at other versions as well, making sure that we’ve been able to do as much due diligence to them as we have had time to do on the NIV 2011.”



***

GJ - Naumann's father was the SP who got Church Growth started in WELS.

This reminds me of the nursing journal I found at Yale Medical School when I was working there. The practical suggestion was, "Ask the patient if he wants his enema before or after dinner." That gives him a choice and makes him happy to be in charge.

So WELS asks, "Do you want to approve the NNIV now or at the district conventions?"

I tried this approach with bathtime, when LI was a toddler. "Do you want your bath now or later?" LI said, "Neither!"

Wendland is happy - it's in the bag.

Naumann can boast he is a confessonal Lutheran leader when he is actually a recessional Lutheran, leading the sheep out to the slaughter.

---

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Contemporary Bible Twisters Adopt Mascot: WELS Fin...":

Read the bios of the individuals who translated the 2011 NIV.

http://www.niv-cbt.org/translators/

The translators of the NNIV would form a veritable Medusa of false teaching and enthusiasm based on their confession and background. Is it any wonder that the NNIV furthers the Baptist, RCC, Reformed, Pharisaical, Feminist and New Age religious agenda which the apostates in the Lutheran Synods are lusting after?

Took the Test, Diagnosis Needed for Treatment

Cover one eye. Which cat is clearer than the other? OK, cover the other eye. Cat one or cat two?


One optician tested my eyes recently and found a potential for glaucoma. She suggested more testing.

As most people know, untreated glaucoma leads to blindness. Those little pumps in the eye keep up a precise pressure. If the pressure is too high for a period of time, vision is destroyed. The onset is subtle.

Family history matters, and my father had glaucoma.

The Lutheran sect approach is to avoid testing at all costs. If someone offers a correct diagnosis, or even asks for more testing, that individual is run out of town (figuratively and literally) and attacked in every possible way.

I went to the one of the best eye clinics in the area. I knew it was a classy place, because the posted dress code was - Wear shoes.

I did not want to hear bad news, but I thought going blind would limit the damage I do to UOJ, so I took the tests. I am fine for now, but will need annual testing.

The Lutheran sects have been promoting falsehood for decades. Everyone knows it but few survivors want to deal openly with it. Without a proper diagnosis, additional blindness will follow.

WELS Has Leaders - All Bad.
Remove Them All.
Publishing News


The younger WELS discussion, below, illustrates what a waste of time and money the WELS convention was.

Publishing news:

Luther versus the UOJ Pietistists: Justification by Faith will be revised in the near future.

The Story of Jesus in Pictures is being readied for publication in due time. I will have a revision done today.

I am working on a murder mystery for the future. A novel can be a good platform for promoting a perspective, so I decided to try my hand at that. I am mentioning the because people push me along once I admit I am going to write something. Pardon the pun, but there is no deadline established.

The Changers will be relieved, but I am not letting up on them. If I can shed some light on what is happening, I will, but more of the posts will be about doctrine rather than Lutheran leaders feathering their nests by promoting apostasy.

Losing by Winning:
Younger WELS Members Not Fooled

Mark Jeske has moved full-time to Time of Grace,
meaning he is too precious to waste his time in pastoral work.


Discussion on Facebook
I used to contribute to Time of Grace Ministry on a regular basis, but quit doing so. The issue that bothered me was that Jeske preached one message to one group of people and another message to another group of people and elevated people of known moral flaws to high status. The law and gospel are meant for all and his occasional scripture-poor messages undermined his normally good ones. I wrote to Pastor Jeske about this and did not receive adequate responses. The later controversy over Jeske's involvement with LCMS raised still more questions for me. I get the impression that Jeske has a tendency to push the envelope, to stretch his Christian freedom a little too far.
Scott Barefoot
My own personal story of "dissapointment" with Pastor Jeske (not that it is one of biblical importance) was last winter when he was one of the "Key Note Speakers" at the WELS College Rally (I attended as a work shop speaker). He got up there and basically showed a "sales pitch" for his Time of Grace T.V. Program. After his talk, he said "Sorry, I have to run... but, please feel free to talk to my staff...".
I just thought that was really, really BAD form. Here he was, invited to be a "Key Note Speaker" at a college rally, and gives a "sales pitch" before pawning everyone off on his "staff". If anything, I personally, think his ego just needs to be "taken down a few notches".
I think his ability to share God's Word with "The Masses" via a syndicated television program is a great one. I just (personally) question his motives, at times.
Scott,
That reminded me of an incident where a friend and I felt duped into attending a short seminar put on by lay people associated with Time of Grace. The invitation was a short, vague statement indicating that we would be learning evangelism techniques. It turned out to be a recruiting pitch to join Time of Grace. It more notably spoke to all of the great things that Pastor Jeske does, but said little of the the gospel message and the work of the Holy Spirit.
No problem, Scott!

(In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a signatory to the first memorial [2011-06U] so obviously I support it.)

To the points that Scott and Gregg have made: I was also present at the 2010 College Rally this past December (Scott and I were both workshop presenters). I was absolutely not impressed with the Time of Grace video Pastor Jeske showed--not only was it pure self-promotion, it wasn't even self-promotion aimed at the right audience (WELS college students)! He was clearly recycling a past fundraising video and passing that off as his "keynote speech"! Even worse, as Gregg notes above, there was not even a word of the Gospel, or the action of the Holy Spirit, and none of the "success stories" of people that ToG had supposedly reached mentioned any involvement with churches of any denomination (let alone WELS/ELS churches). They were all basically stories revolving around "Pastor Jeske inspired me to improve my life". It was very works-oriented and very Jeske-focused.

(If I am misconstruing the video--and I don't think I am--I would welcome a link or a transcript.)
 

Convention Summary:
Church and Change Shuts Out Opposition.
NNIV To Be Pushed Again