----- Forwarded Message ----
From: SARAH OWENS
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 12, 2010 9:47:27 PM
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
As a Christian WELS woman, I've seen women recognize the desire and need to worship, study, fellowship with and encourage each other (ie. retreats, LWMS, women's bible studies). It is awesome to see Christian WELS men recognizing that men need encouragement too! We, women benefit as our men are lifted up by one another to use their gifts, talents and love for the Lord in their families, their churches, their "world." While starting new things may need to be preceeded (sic) by some discussion of mission and goals, always keeping Christ central, I hope we don't get overwhelmed by the challenges but pray alot (sic) and take steps as God allows and leads. Thanks for bringing up the idea.
Sarah
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To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
From: markbergemann@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:47:52 -0600
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
Hi all,
I have always assumed that this list serve was for WELS/ELS/Ichabod members only. I’ve been on ChurchAndChange since Dec 2004 and do not remember any posts indicating otherwise.
Even if there are some of our ELCA brothers and sisters in Christ on ChurchAndChange, then I still stand behind my previous post on this thread (there are at least 2 Marks who posted to this thread, I am Mark Bergemann). So many of the ELCA laity do not know that their church body, and possibly their own pastor, teaches things that directly attack the Gospel itself, such as all religions lead to the true God, and that Jesus did not physically rise from the dead. I personally know people in such a situation.
So many ELCA pastors preach and teach in ways that are acceptable to the two types of members in their congregations, those that believe they are sinners who are saved through the life and death of Jesus in their place, and those who believe that we should help others in this life and not worry about what happens after death.
I cannot in good conscience sit idly by and watch those I know who attend ELCA churches be lead (sic) away from Jesus. I am generally more careful and less blunt when reaching out to those in heterodox churches such as ELCA. If ChurchAndhange (sic) is open to anyone regardless of their religious affiliation, then I’ll have to change my future posts accordingly, as some of what I say may be misunderstood.
In Christian love for all people,
Mark Bergemann
From: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com [mailto:church_and_change@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Graf
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 7:39 PM
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
Greetings all,
I have been a WELS Lutheran through my entire half century of life. I have two uncles who were WELS ministers, a cousin-in-law who is a WLES (?) minister and two cousins who teach Christian day school. My father served on the WELS Synod Finance committee for almost 25 years. I myself was a signature away from attending seminary myself, when my youngest son was born with Down Syndrome and the Lord told me that he had other plans for my discipleship and put me on a new path.
I'm relatively new to this group. If I may humbly comment on a word that was recently used. That word is "WELS-ify". Hearing that word and further discussions regarding being "too close to ELCA" and others who don't share our fellowship, made me feel a little unsettled, almost embarrassed, knowing that there very likely are members of the ELCA silently listening to our discussions just as I was until now.
While it is very important to be true to what the Word teaches, I also believe that we must ask God to help us guard against an arrogance which pushes others away, rather than living a Christlike life where others are drawn to us and want to have what we have. People who call themselves WELS lutherans (sic) are not the only people that will go to heaven, Heaven will be filled with Baptist, Catholics, Methodists, and others who have in their hearts accepted Jesus as their savior. In fact considering WELS short existence on this little planet, we will very likely be a very small minority once we get there. I always try to remind others in my own church when the discussion sways to talking about those "other" churches, that Jesus wasn't a WELS luthern (double sic), neither was Abraham, Noah, Moses... etc...
If Jesus were alive today [GJ - note the doctrinal ignorance of the participants!] he wouldn't be only in a listserve with WELS lutherans (sic), but groups for pedophiles, homosexuals, and other groups whom appear to us as resisting God's love more than others.
Finally, I want to humbly remind us all that when we push others way, we judge them, and God was pretty clear about who is qualified to do the judging. With that said, I agree that there are probably individuals who are members of the ELCA in this group and I would invite them to share their thoughts, so we can find our similarities and grow towards the Truth from that point.
Think about it. A member of an ELCA church in this listserve. If that isn't a God given opportunity to share His Truth, then I don't know what is. :)
Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts.
Carl
On 11/12/2010 10:56 AM, Matthew Krenke wrote:
Thanks Chris, I too agree with everything you wrote.
My concern is that if this is being used to advertise or promote a gathering within our fellowship (and I know some of the history was explained in earlier postings), a person could easily do what I did, Google "Lutheran Men in Mission," and go striaght (sic) to an ELCA site. There are plenty of people not of our fellowship on this list serve, and I don't take it lightly when we are tied too closely to ELCA, unless they one day get their house in order. Even if it weren't tied to ELCA, I would much have preferred seeing a vignette of someone who explained how he was taken back to the Word of God, and encouraged to examine his relationship with the Lord, and lifted up by the message of forgiveness in Christ. This may very well be what happens at this event.. then say that. Then we're giving testimony to our value of and trust in God's word.
Please forgive me if my original posting seemed to harsh,no offense was intended.
- Matt
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To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
From: marksalzwedel@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:15:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
>we can certainly do better by adding the word of God and how it strengthens faith.
I think this is the crux of the issue - do we view sanctification as our work, with God's Word "added" in as an ingredient - or is it solely the work of God's Word? The problem with most of these Evangelical-style programs is not that they explicitly espouse false doctrines (those are easy to fix and "WELS-ify"), but that they are founded on assumptions that undermine the efficacy of Scripture/Means of Grace.
That said, I sometimes come down on either side of these kinds of debates, and I haven't had time to investigate the particulars of what is being discussed here - just making a general observation.
- Mark
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From: Christopher Hoppe
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 12, 2010 9:58:00 AM
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
I agree with everything Matt said, but I also think we need to be careful we don't become too critical of other ministries, so as not to extinguish the fire that the Holy Spirit has started in the hearts of others. We know the ELCA has gotten too social at times and have put activity above the word and I don't agree with that either. Keep it Christ centered and let the word ignite your faith!
The video is usually a way to get people in the door, a teaser per se. It would certainly be better that they say that it's God's Word that is the source of all our strength, we as pastors know that, and I hope and pray that it's there! Getting together with like minded men is certainly something that can bolster faith as we share experiences in life and how we can tackle real life issues with God's help and the help of fellow brothers in the faith. A support system is not necessarily bad - as God encourages us to carry each other's burdens and build each other up.
There are many men out there who are not living their faith, but are running away from it. How can we get to men where they are? How can we reach out to them to help them speak their faith and live in the calling they have received? It it's through a venue like this -- then praise God from whom all blessings flow! Let's not get too critical or jump to conclusions.
And if it's a WELS member getting it going - we should take their words and actions in the kindest possible way and trust that they are Christ centered. I am encouraged as a pastor to teach my people to go out with their faith and share it, but I put a yoke around their necks and tell them what they can and cannot do, and sometimes we end up choking out the faith the Holy Spirit has put there. [GJ - Pietism can sound pretty nutty at times, with pastors fighting the Holy Spirit and winning.] Let's encourage.... let's dig into the word... and let's pray that God would open doors for us to reach out with the love of Christ! The video was just a template and idea for us to put into action in our midst, we can certainly do better by adding the word of God and how it strengthens faith.
Chris Hoppe
--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Matthew Krenke
From: Matthew Krenke
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 9:34 AM
I watched the video. I learned that real men wear pink. I learned that if you go to this "One Year to Live" program you might be moved to take part in some social gospel enterprise (that's what the ministries mentioned sounded like). I heard lots of talk about how they grew in their faith. I don't quite know how this video was to give me proof of this internal, spiritual growth, but what I did see had no mention of sin and grace, of which increasing your understanding is the only way to grow in faith. I heard an appeal to financially support a ministry I don't feel I could. I understand the intent, that as Christian men we need our brothers to rely on, and I commend its intent. I recommend getting into the Word and being strengthened, in the Bible studies and activities that are probably already going on in your own congregation. What do we do with this great wonderful truth? We share it. We don't need to huddle together with like-minded brothers to do that.
Pastor Matt Krenke - Zion Lutheran , Valentine, Nebraska
http://www.youtube.com/user/LutheranMenInMission#p/a/u/1/JCJzH5RbvJU
***
GJ - Lutheran Men in Mission is ELCA, but hey, WELS has worked with ELCA for decades.
ELCA likes Susan B. Komen because SBK has given millions of dollars to Planned Parenthood.
http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Ministry/Lutheran-Men-in-Mission.aspx
Komen and Planned Parenthood.
More here.
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