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| UOJ is anti-confessional, so it leads its victims into Eastern Orthodoxy: clouds of incense and cloudy doctrine. |
Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Luther Drafted Again To Endorse UOJ":
Because, as ELS Pastor David Jay Webber falsely taught, God sees all people (believers and unbelievers) as unrighteous, outside of Christ, and all people (believers and unbelievers) as righteous, in Christ. SIMULTANEOUSLY!
This is where the false gospel of UOJ has taken the Lutheran Synods - to the point of teaching that God is double minded and being declared by God's divine verdict to be righteous by Christ's atonement doesn't save eternally.
Pastor David Jay Webber (W)ELS
"In Christ, as God looks at the world through Christ, all are under divine mercy and are forgiven, and are therefore invited to believe and be saved. But outside of Christ, as God looks at the world apart from Christ, all are under divine wrath and judgment, and are condemned. The same people - namely all people - are under consideration in each case." http://extranos.blogspot.com/2010/03/grinding-my-ax.html
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John has left a new comment on your post "Luther versus the UOJ Pietists":
I have been a member of both LCMS and ELS congregations and have NEVER been taught that I am saved without faith.
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GJ - The Olde Synodical Conference is not as consistent with UOJ as they like to pretend. The Pless (Concordia, Ft. Wayne) essay recently linked is not UOJ. One Missouri pastor said, "About 500 LCMS pastors write as if they reject UOJ."
UOJ is a convenient hatchet for WELS and the ELS, a tool for the lazy who do not want their seminary notes rewritten. That is the obnoxious stamp of Walther, who had to be top dog and appoint a new generation of top dogs.
How Luther's doctrine has survived the Lutherans is a puzzle to me.
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AC V has left a new comment on your post "Once Again, With Feeling":
"How Luther's doctrine has survived the Lutherans is a puzzle to me."
By God's grace...by God's grace! Or, to put it according to AC V (the Augsburg Confession, Article Five, not the stealth Ichabod poster): "...the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear the Gospel,..."
"Where and when it pleases God" profoundly humbles me and makes me want to sing a Te Deum for his grace to me.
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AC V has left a new comment on your post "Once Again, With Feeling":
"The Pless (Concordia, Ft. Wayne) essay recently linked is not UOJ."
I believe you are referring to John T. Pless' "Delivering Forgiveness of Sins" presented at the South Dakota District Lay/Clergy Conferences Rapid City, SD May 6, l995 Sioux Falls, SD May 7, l995. University Lutheran Chapel, Minneapolis, MN:
http://www.confessionalsbytes.com/2010/02/john-pless-delivering-forgiveness-of.html
In the WELS the best argument you will get in favor of using the Liturgy is that it best proclaims Christ. On the surface, that sounds like a valid argument. But there is a difference between saying "Use the Liturgy because it best proclaims Christ" and "Use the Liturgy because it delivers the forgiveness of sins." The former leaves the door open to emphasize UOJ. The latter does not. If you don't believe me. Read Prof. Forrest Bivens' essay prepared for the first WELS National Conference on Worship, Music and the Arts at Carthage College, Kenosha, Wisconsin, July 23, 1996, entitled "The Primary Doctrine in Its Primary Setting: Objective Justification in Lutheran Worship":
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/BivensPrimary.pdf
Here are some choice quotes (Part 1 in this post).
Right out of the gate, he says: "To phrase it somewhat differently, God has justified acquitted or declared righteous the whole world of sinners. He has forgiven them. They have been reconciled to God; their status in his eyes has been changed from that of sinner to forgiven sinner for the sake of Jesus Christ. Since all this applies to all people, the term universal or general justification is used. In our circles an alternate term, objective justification, is also used. If justification is universal, it must also be objective - sinners are forgiven whether they believe it or not. This is precisely what Scripture teaches in Romans 3:23-24, when it says, 'There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.' All have sinned and all are justified freely by God’s grace. Romans 4:5 also teaches the grand truth that our God is the 'God who justifies the wicked,' all of them. 'God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them' (2 Co 5:19). Literally, God was not counting 'their' sins against them,and the only antecedent of 'their' in the sentence is 'the world,' which includes all people."
Bivens then goes on to conclude: "Among the fruits of justification is worship." There is no mention of the sacraments in the entire essay, let alone how they convey the forgiveness of sins. Bivens quotes Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary Dean of the Chapel James Tiefel to make his point: "Worship is simply the best opportunity to encourage each other with the Word."
Rather than forgiveness delivered through the means of grace, the emphasis is on clear communication in order to get people to understand UOJ. Bivens: "Our gracious God has justified every individual person. God’s will and our desire is that each person be brought to understand and embrace this truth. So the primary doctrine does point us to care for and strive to deal with people individually. On this point at least, the Christian church and the modern American see an agreement of sorts."
To conclude his essay, Bivens talks about music style: "A final 'worship problem' mentioned here is that of agreeing on what music is most appropriate and most to be appreciated in worship." The key, according to Bivens, is UOJ: "Justification leads to inner renewal and a reordering of values and priorities, likes and dislikes in Christian thinking and living. Our new status in Christ issues into a new likeness to Christ. What pleases him pleases us, more and more. Still, since even
the most ancient and approved components in our historical liturgy cannot be equated with heaven’s songs or established as divinely mandated songs for us on earth, their use or nonuse remain a matter of choice. And choices, even among saints, differ widely."
So, there you go. Not a word about about how preaching and the sacraments deliver the forgiveness of sins won by Christ on the cross. Rather, "We've got to be effective communicators of UOJ. Gosh, I suppose liturgical worship does that OK, but don't insist on it because someone might legitimately disagree with you because after all it's all adiaphora."
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AC V has left a new comment on your post "Once Again, With Feeling":
When's the last time you heard something like this from a WELS pastor? Probably not in a long, long time. Today, in fact, it might just get you disciplined, not only for using the word "Mass" but for also suggesting an every Sunday service offering of the Sacrament:
If we get the forgiveness of sins right, we will get the liturgy right. Luther writes in the Large Catechism, "We believe that in this Christian church we have the forgiveness of sins, which is granted through the holy sacraments and, in short, the entire Gospel and all the duties of Christianity....Therefore everything in the Christian church is so ordered that we may daily obtain full forgiveness of sins through the Word and through signs appointed to comfort and revive our consciences as long as we live" (LC II:55). For Luther and the Confessions, the church is constituted in the liturgy, that is, she receives her life from Christ in His words and gifts which deliver the forgiveness of sins. No wonder, then, that our Confessions place sermon and sacrament at the center, insisting that our churches have not abolished the Mass but celebrate it every Sunday and on other festivals (Ap XXIV).
John Pless: "Delivering Forgiveness of Sins"
http://www.confessionalsbytes.com/2010/02/john-pless-delivering-forgiveness-of.html
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AC V has left a new comment on your post "Once Again, With Feeling":
It's been brought to my attention that those in the LC-MS (who are watching) are seeing more gown-less, pulpit-less pastors in the WELS. A trend in keeping with UOJ principles as summarized by WELS pastor Kevin Schultz who was recently interviewed by the San Diego Reader?:
SDR: What is your main concern as a member of the clergy?
PS: The most important concern I have is getting people interested in God's Word....
(http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2011/feb/23/sheep-reformation-lutheran-church; reprinted in the September 2011 Forward in Christ).
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GJ - Decades ago, Robert Preus sent Herman Otten a promotional piece on Church Growth. He wrote on it, "WELS is deeper into this than Missouri." Likewise, WELS has made UOJ its only doctrine while Missouri has been publishing justification by faith materials (like its KJV catechism) along with the nutty UOJ stuff.
However, the existence of UOJ in any synod shows a complete breakdown in Lutheran doctrine, especially since no Lutheran leader will address the problem and correct it. Hopeless, Helpless, and Hapless (Moldstad, Schroeder, Harrison) are alike in that regard.
