Rolf Preus - The LCMS Should Be More Bloodthirsty on UOJ - Like WELS!

 Rolf Preus has stupidly repeated Romans 4:25 as if the verse and chapter are all about Justification without Faith.

Rolf is here to help you blokes with doctrinal problems.

Heiser and Rolf Preus have both been ambivalent about the Chief Article.
Here they are studying and worshiping together.
Every Ft. Wayne grad is a bishop or a pope.

Author Message   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9776 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 9:38 am:       The Book of Concord was published in 1580. Pastor Rolf David Preus   Joe Krohn (Jekster) Advanced Member Username: Jekster Post Number: 569 Registered: 4-2011 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 9:56 am:       "If they color their translation by what they confess about scripture, EHV will be the most accurate English translation ever published." Mr. Gorman; if a translation is colored by one's confession, it's hardly accurate. It's more like the tail wagging the dog.   Steve Ames (Sames) Senior Member Username: Sames Post Number: 1635 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 2:42 pm:       Daniel Gorman: “WELS translators have only one scriptural confession, the 1584 Book of Concord. If they color their translation by what they confess about scripture, EHV will be the most accurate English translation ever published.” Mr. Gorman, then the translation would be a failure. However, perhaps you are thinking the EHV is faithfully translating the content of Scripture which is what the Book of Concord confesses? As the translators in the below referenced article states: “The Formula of Concord is not sectarian. It is catholic and ecumenical because it promotes the unity of the church by faithfully confessing the content of Scripture.” A “Lutheran” Translation?? Pitfalls and Potential http://wartburgproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2015 /05/A_Lutheran_Translation-Pitfalls_and_Potentials .pdf It would be sectarian or would at the very least be perceived as sectarian. … If we can produce a product that would find some acceptance among other Lutherans and other denominations, rather than being sectarian, the project might instead establish some common ground. But the main reason that our translation is not sectarian is that our translators are not sectarians. They are confessional Lutherans. They understand that while it might be sectarian to translate the Bible, “Jesus said this is my true body,” it is not sectarian to confess, “This is the true body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The translators understand the difference between presenting a Lutheran understanding of Scripture in a confessional statement and importing that interpretation into the words of a translation. What determines whether or not a translation is sectarian is not how many people produced it or how many people use it but how faithful it is to the divinely intended meaning of Scripture. The Vulgate, which was used by millions of people for centuries and was the Bible which nourished Luther, was sectarian when it translated the first gospel promise, “She [Mary] will crush the serpent’s head.” When Luther revised the Vulgate and translated, “He [Christ] will crush the serpent’s head,” his one-man translation was not sectarian but truly catholic. The Formula of Concord is not sectarian. It is catholic and ecumenical because it promotes the unity of the church by faithfully confessing the content of Scripture. The same would be true of a translation made by confessional Lutherans. A translation made by confessional Lutherans would not be “a Lutheran translation” which introduced a Lutheran bias into the text. It would be a translation by Lutherans which honestly set forth the meaning of the text. …   Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 3698 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 4:11 pm:       Steve Ames: "However, perhaps you are thinking the EHV is faithfully translating the content of Scripture which is what the Book of Concord confesses?" No person is a blank slate. If the Book of Concord doesn't color the WELS translation, something else will. If the WELS translators were to discover a passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord, I believe they would humbly and prayerfully examine the text very closely to determine where they had erred. If they were unable to find their mistake, they would abandon their translation project (or their confession). Finishing the Wartburg Project is, therefore, prima facie evidence that the Book of Concord has colored the WELS translation.   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9778 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 5:23 pm:       Does anyone know where I can get copies of An American Translation at a reasonable price? Pastor Rolf David Preus   Steve Ames (Sames) Senior Member Username: Sames Post Number: 1636 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 6:04 pm:       Daniel Gorman: “If the Book of Concord doesn't color the WELS translation, something else will.” If you must have something in your words to “color” the EHV translation it would be the belief that the Bible is God’s inspired inerrant Word as taught by what WELS folks call the Wauwatosa Theology. The Wauwatosa Theology is the view that the Scriptures should be historically and grammatically interpreted on the basis of the original Hebrew and Greek texts, with no dogmatic or ecclesiastical presuppositions. Daniel, you appear to be making the Book of Concord a dogmatic presupposition. Daniel Gorman: “If the WELS translators were to discover a passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord,” What you are suggesting would have been very disturbing to the early WELS fathers known as the Northwestern Lutherans who lead the Wisconsin Synod's break with the Prussian Union mission societies who had been providing support. Nowhere does the use of the Bible by the Book of Concord misuse or contradict the true meaning of God’s Word. Just where can one image any Bible passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord or where the Book of Concord disagrees with any Bible passage? Just for clarity, translation project is complete.   Steven Thomas Karp (Steven_karp) New member Username: Steven_karp Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2015 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 7:44 pm:       I checked on Amazon, and "Good" used copies of "An American Translation"can be had in the $10 range. Is That reasonable? By the way, you might have to poke around a bit since Amazon has different editions in different places.   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9779 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 12:38 am:       Thanks for the information. I'll check it out. Pastor Rolf David Preus   Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 3699 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 6:05 am:       Steve Ames: "Daniel, you appear to be making the Book of Concord a dogmatic presupposition." My only presupposition is that scripture "is the only true standard by which all teachers and doctrines are to be judged." FC;SD;OF THE COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY, FOUNDATION, RULE, AND STANDARD Steve Ames: "Just where can one image any Bible passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord or where the Book of Concord disagrees with any Bible passage?" A few years ago, I thought I had at long last found an inconsistency between scripture and the BOC. But there was no inconsistency! I had erred by relying an incorrect English translation of the BOC. I am not aware of any doctrinal conflict between the bible and the Book of Concord in their original languages. Steve Ames: "Just for clarity, translation project is complete." If the WELS translators did find an apparent inconsistency between the bible and the BOC in the course of their work, I am confident they recognized and corrected their error. The WELS translators would not publish a bible that contradicts their confession. "Since now, in the sight of God and of all Christendom [the entire Church of Christ], we wish to testify to those now living and those who shall come after us that this declaration herewith presented concerning all the controverted articles aforementioned and explained, and no other, is our faith, doctrine, and confession, in which we are also willing, by God’s grace, to appear with intrepid hearts before the judgment-seat of Jesus Christ, and give an account of it; and that we will neither privately nor publicly speak or write anything contrary to it. . ." FC,SD,XII   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9780 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 10:47 am:       The Scripture alone principle does not disallow adopting a scripturally based norm of doctrine such as the Creeds and the Lutheran Confessions. The doctrinally binding authority of these confessions derives from the Scriptures alone. Inasmuch as they are already normed by the norming norm (the Holy Scriptures), they, as the normed norm serve as a sound guide in the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Does this make the Lutheran Confessions "a dogmatic presupposition"? No, it makes the Lutheran Confessions a dogmatic conclusion, which then becomes a guide for us Lutherans as we interpret the Bible. Mr. Gorman correctly notes, "No person is a blank slate. If the Book of Concord doesn't color the WELS translation, something else will." The problem with the Wauwatosa theologians is that with their arrogant dismissal of the theological method of centuries of Lutherans as "father's theology," it bequeathed to the Wisconsin Synod a father's theology of its own, saddling them with a sectarian view of church and ministry that has caused them no end of trouble. Rejecting the "fathers' theology" of the seventeenth century and adopting its own "fathers' theology" of the early twentieth century, the WELS finds itself in an untenable position on matters (such as the plain meaning of AC V and AC XIV) that were settled among us Lutherans for hundreds of years before anybody had heard of Wauwatosa, Wisconsin. Pastor Rolf David Preus   Steve Schmidt (Sschmidt) Intermediate Member Username: Sschmidt Post Number: 285 Registered: 3-2017 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 11:40 am:       I thought the WELS rejected Wauwatosa theology in 1929? I'm missing something.   Steve Schmidt (Sschmidt) Intermediate Member Username: Sschmidt Post Number: 286 Registered: 3-2017 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 11:53 am:       https://pastorjameskellerman.blogspot.com/2011/08/ wauwawhat-part-three.html Also, does anybody know why August Pieper was, according to the above blog, "the Darth Vader of the Wisconsin Synod?"   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9782 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 12:03 pm:       No, the WELS celebrates the Wauwatosa Theology. It did take some time before it was incorporated into their official statements. While the Wauwatosans taught their new teaching on church and ministry one hundred years ago, the WELS didn't formally adopt it until 1969. For years, the WELS and the LCMS had pretty much the same practice. In fact, some said that Missouri's practice followed Wisconsin's doctrine and Wisconsin's practice followed Missouri's doctrine. The Wauwatosa take on sola Scriptura has definitely affected Wisconsin's use of the Lutheran Confessions as a norm. While formally subscribing unconditionally, in practice they do not always follow the Confessional paradigm. This becomes very apparent on church and ministry. On the other hand, Wisconsin's opposition to unionism is stronger than Missouri's, and the WELS seems to be more willing to stand up against cultural norms than is Missouri. On hermeneutical issues, the WELS stays with the historic Lutheran position on such things as rectilinear messianic prophecy, whereas Missouri has caved into the Reformed influence on this. I don't want my criticism of the Wauwatosans misunderstood. They were excellent theologians. The WELS has a high regard for the Holy Scriptures and does a good job of training their pastors. Pastor Rolf David Preus   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9783 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 12:06 pm:       Also, the WELS affirmation of objective justification and its willingness to stand firm on this is commendable. While Missouri appears incapable of disciplining those who deny it, the WELS has done so to their credit. I speak specifically of a former WELS pastor who is now a member of ELDoNA, an erring sect that broke away from Missouri, rejecting Missouri's teaching on the ministry and justification. Pastor Rolf David Preus

Greek Lesson - Romans 4:12 - 5:2. UOJ? Whefefore Art Thou, UOJ?

 Norma A. Boeckler

Lenski, Romans p 302 -

"The great fact stands: Abraham was justified by God long before he was circumcised. His faith alone justified him. This towers above all else. And this is vital for us Gentile believers today. We are true children of the father of believers although we are not of his physical blood and are without the rite which he and those of his blood received during the time of the old covenant."

Parsing Link

Romans Lenski - Download and save public domain PDF.

Father Abraham - Example of Righteousness of Faith among Uncircumcise. Lazarus story - Father Abraham. Details matter.

11 και σημειον ελαβεν περιτομης σφραγιδα της δικαιοσυνης της πιστεως - της εν τη ακροβυστια, εις το ειναι αυτον πατερα παντων των πιστευοντων δι ακροβυστιας -εις το λογισθηναι και αυτοις την δικαιοσυνην

Like adult baptism for the believer - a seal of the righteousness of faith. Anarthrous, lack of a, an, the - emphasis. Two articular infinitives, to be, to be counted.

12 και πατερα περιτομης τοις ουκ εκ περιτομης μονον αλλα και τοις στοιχουσιν (march in step, military) τοις ιχνεσιν (footsteps) της εν τη ακροβυστια πιστεως του πατρος ημων αβρααμ

Very strong emphasis - righteousnes via circumcision or via faith, so faith is repeated again. Righteousness of faith before circumcision - a seal, a sign of his prior righteousness.

13 ου γαρ δια νομου η επαγγελια τω αβρααμ η τω σπερματι αυτου το κληρονομον αυτον ειναι του κοσμου αλλα δια δικαιοσυνης πιστεως

Anarthrous. Greek can separate what we put together, look at matching connections, not through, but through.

14 ει γαρ οι εκ νομου κληρονομοι, κεκενωται η πιστις - και κατηργηται η επαγγελια

Kenosis - Christ emptied Himself.

15 ο γαρ νομος οργην κατεργαζεται - ου γαρ ουκ εστιν νομος ουδε παραβασις

I see an word-play in the greens, empty versus works. Parser helps. The Law reveals sin.

16 δια τουτο εκ πιστεως ινα κατα χαριν εις το ειναι βεβαιαν την επαγγελιαν παντι τω σπερματι ου τω εκ του νομου μονον αλλα και τω εκ πιστεως αβρααμ ος εστιν πατηρ παντων ημων

Paul tries to make it clear that these blessings come through faith, not through Law. Still looking for UOJ in Romans 4.

17 καθως γεγραπται οτι πατερα πολλων εθνων τεθεικα σε κατεναντι ου επιστευσεν θεου του ζωοποιουντος τους νεκρους και καλουντος τα μη οντα ως οντα

Making alive - verb. This is faith in God who is powerful to do such things.

18 ος παρ ελπιδα επ ελπιδι επιστευσεν εις το γενεσθαι αυτον πατερα πολλων εθνων κατα το ειρημενον. ουτως εσται το σπερμα σου

By hope, beyond all hope...

19 και μη ασθενησας τη πιστει ου κατενοησεν το εαυτου σωμα ηδη νενεκρωμενον εκατονταετης που υπαρχων - και την νεκρωσιν της μητρας σαρρας

Noetics - thinking.

20 εις δε την επαγγελιαν του θεου ου διεκριθη τη απιστια αλλ ενεδυναμωθη τη πιστει δους δοξαν τω θεω

Dynamo, dynomite - power, strength. Used with efficacy.

21 και πληροφορηθεις οτι ο επηγγελται, δυνατος εστιν και ποιησαι

Not just persuaded, but fully persuaded.

22 διο και ελογισθη αυτω εις δικαιοσυνην

The same verb again, with faith, and with faith, the result of faith.

23 ουκ εγραφη δε δι αυτον μονον οτι ελογισθη αυτω

This entire argument is not intended to be about Abraham only, that he was counted righteous.

24 αλλα και δι ημας οις μελλει λογιζεσθαι τοις πιστευουσιν επι τον εγειραντα ιησουν τον κυριον ημων εκ νεκρων

This righteousness would apply also to all those who believe...

25 ος παρεδοθη δια τα παραπτωματα ημων και ηγερθη δια την δικαιωσιν ημων

Atonement and justification by faith.

Paul's Lesson Continues with a Transiton, Summing Up Romans 4 To Continue in Romans 5

5 δικαιωθεντες ουν εκ πιστεως, ειρηνην εχομεν προς τον θεον δια του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου

ουν - the transitional word. Peace comes through faith and forgiveness.

2 δι ου και την προσαγωγην εσχηκαμεν τη πιστει εις την χαριν ταυτην εν η εστηκαμεν και καυχωμεθα επ ελπιδι της δοξης του θεου

Nothing is left out - access, in faith, into this grace - standing and boasting on the hope and glory of God.

1550 Stephanus New Testament (TR1550)

by Public Domain

When I Was a Young Lad in Journalism School

My junior high school was this tough. If someone had a library fine, they had no qualms about collecting, bigly. Brawny Bert Ringquist, on the far left, became the principal. I survived by my family connections and my wits.

When I was much younger, in journalism school, a prediction was made as the big media companies begain failing - "News will be gathered by citizen journalists, who will also take pictures and video what is happening."

That phenomenon is mushrooming under Q, but it started years ago. Websites solicit news, photos, and video for their reports. That has also yielded counted fail videos, also known as What Could Possibly Go Wrong.

Q's advantage is having experts and OCD researchers pursuing individual details about current events.

That is how a lot of details come my way, by people who write about their experiences and respond to posts. If someone writes often, I apply a pseudonym, like Gideon.

As many have observed, denominational news is scant. Explanations are missing entirely. Blog discussion sites are packed with bland, boring, and ill-informed nonsense. "Steadfast" was started as a political booster for McCain-Harrison.

Just the opposite happens with the ELDONUTs. When they join, they stop writing anything for the public, and the sect is notoriously shy about all communication.

Moline High School Confidential - suppressed for obvious reasons.