Karl Pierson (Karl_pierson) Senior Member Username: Karl_pierson Post Number: 1587 Registered: 1-2009 |
I just heard that the WELS has suspended a pastor by the name of Rydecki for denying objective justification. Does anyone have the facts? |
Kirk Meyer (Kirk) Member Username: Kirk Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2002 |
The following papers and letters, produced by Rev. Rydecki, would shed some light on the matter from his perspective: Emmanuel Lutheran Church Resources |
| Louis Benoit (Louis) Intermediate Member Username: Louis Post Number: 278 Registered: 12-2010 |
Karl, a group calling itself Intrepid Lutherans reports on Rev. Paul Rydecki's suspension from the WELS this past week. |
| Kirk Meyer (Kirk) Member Username: Kirk Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2002 |
The following papers and letters, produced by Rev. Rydecki, would shed some light on the matter from his perspective: Emmanuel Lutheran Church Resources |
| Karl Pierson (Karl_pierson) Senior Member Username: Karl_pierson Post Number: 1588 Registered: 1-2009 |
Well, that pretty much says it. Paul Rydecki denies objective justification. What does he make of 2 Cor. 5:19: "... in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them..."? How can God count their trespasses against them if according to the Scriptures he does not count their trespasses against them? What does he make of John 1:29: "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"? How can the Lamb of God not away the sin of the world if according to Scripture he does take away the sin of the world? Good choice, WELS! Good choice! |
GJ - Polish the thumb screws and dust off the rack.
| Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 1613 Registered: 11-2004 |
Karl Pierson: "Paul Rydecki denies objective justification." You are entitled to your opinion based on Rev. Rydecki's public writings. I have not evaluated them as yet. According to the Intrepid article, Rev. Rydecki was suspended "on the charge of teaching the “false doctrine” of Justification by Faith Alone not for denying "objective justification." I went to the WELS Az-Ca District website and could not find any information regarding the cause of Rev. Rydecki's suspension. If WELS Az-Ca District suspended Pr. Rydecki, the district should promptly disclose the reason for Pr. Rydecki's suspension and publicly refute his errors so that others are not misled. |
| Joe Krohn (Jekster) Member Username: Jekster Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2011 |
This is an unfortunate and sad story that can be attributed, at least in this writers opinion that the Jacksonian sect has had an affect on Pr. Rydecki and serves as a warning to mark and avoid Jackson and his followers. (The Ichabodians are claiming victory this evening...) These guys scoff at the universal reconciliation and redemption of the world and refuse to address the 'intuitu fidei' issue as espoused by Lenski. I don't believe that Pr. Rydecki denies objective justification, but rather the sloppy teaching of OJ in parts of the WELS as this ex-WELsian can prove by his suspension scars... |
| Daniel Baker (Livinthehylife) New member Username: Livinthehylife Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2011 |
Ah, yes, someone thinks it's unbiblical to say that the reprobate have been forgiven and declared righteous - must be brainwashed by Greg Jackson. Please. |
Karl Pierson (Karl_pierson) Senior Member Username: Karl_pierson Post Number: 1589 Registered: 1-2009 |
From "The Biblical Doctrine of Justification on One Page:" God credits the righteousness of Christ only to those who believe in Jesus, and thus justifies only those who believe in Jesus. (John 3:16-18, 36; Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:26; 4:5; 10:10; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:8-9) These are Paul Rydecki's words, Daniel Gorman. Check out his sermon entitled: "Faith is the difference between those who are justified and those who are not." The sermon is mostly good, except that he confuses law and gospel by rendering the gospel as a description of persons having faith rather than God justifying sinners. Joe, I think I know what you are talking about when you speak of "the sloppy teaching of OJ in parts of WELS." It goes something like this: "God has forgiven all the sins you have ever committed, all the sins you are committing right now, and all the sins you are about to commit in the future." That may be an exaggeration, but sometimes you walk away with that impression. And, while the statement is technically true, it's not good penitential preaching. Well, the opposite must be avoided too. To describe faith as the conditio sine qua non for receiving Christ's righteousness is not false, but in the proclamation of the universal gospel, this conditio is often used as a preacher's crutch, a third leg between law and gospel, in order to avoid the cultivation of hypocrisy--as if such were the preacher's task to begin with. And, in the case of Paul Rydecki, the opposite has resulted in a categorical denial of objective justification. | ||
     Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1338 Registered: 12-2004 |
Karl Pieron writes: To describe faith as the conditio sine qua non for receiving Christ's righteousness is not false, but in the proclamation of the universal gospel, this conditio is often used as a preacher's crutch, a third leg between law and gospel, in order to avoid the cultivation of hypocrisy--as if such were the preacher's task to begin with. This is a very good point. Just as it is not the responsibility of the preacher of the Gospel to make the people correct their behavior, it is also not the responsibility of the preacher of the Gospel to keep people from being hypocrites. They are two sides of the same coin. Franz | ||
| Dick Rockenbach (Drock) Senior Member Username: Drock Post Number: 1789 Registered: 11-2004 |
"Just as it is not the responsibility of the preacher of the Gospel to make the people correct their behavior, it is also not the responsibility of the preacher of the Gospel to keep people from being hypocrites. They are two sides of the same coin." But it is the Preachers responsibilty to use the Law to drive them to repentance and restore them with the Gospel (Luther- Pless "what Luther says". It is also his responsibility to make clear who is under the Grace of God and who is not Walther- Proper Distinction of Law & Gospel 12th, 13th 23rd & (29th?). It would seem to me that those who deny OJ are attempting to do that but in the error of rejecing OJ in the effort to teach the Truth of SJ. Walther > But to preach properly is difficult. For this reason a student of theology ought to make proper preaching his highest aim. For if he is unable to preach, he does not belong in the ministry. In our orthodox Church a servant of God is a minister of Jesus Christ, and his worth does not lie in a certain undefined quality that has been imparted to him at his ordination or consecration, in something that other people have not and which, for that reason, makes him such a sacrosanct and precious person. By no means; the worth of a true minister of the Church lies exclusively in his ability to preach properly. If he has not this ability, the pulpit is not the place for him; for the pulpit is for preaching. Preaching is the central element of every divine service. What is to be effected by preaching? Bear in mind that the preacher is to arouse secure souls from their sleep in sin; next, to lead those who have been aroused to faith; next, to give believers assurance of their state of grace and salvation; next, to lead those who have become assured of this to sanctification of their lives; and lastly, to confirm the sanctified and to keep them in their holy and blessed state unto the end. What a task! A preeminent point that we must not forget is this: To achieve this task, it is especially necessary rightly to divide the truth, as the apostle says, or properly to divide the Law and the Gospel from each other. When a person does not understand how to do this and always mingles either doctrine into the other, his preaching is utterly futile, in vain. More than this, a preacher of this kind does harm and leads the souls of men astray; he leads them to a false faith, a false hope, a false contrition, makes them mere hypocrites, and frequently hurls them into despair. To divide Law and Gospel properly is a very, very difficult task. As Luther says, all preachers cannot but remain mere apprentices in this art until death. Nevertheless, a young theologian must be able to recite at least the first lesson in this curriculum. He must know the goal that he is to reach, and he must have made a start in reaching the goal. Walther, C. F. W., Dau, W. H. T., & Eckhardt, E. (2000). The proper distinction between law and gospel: 39 evening lectures (electronic ed.) (248–249). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House. | ||
| Louis Benoit (Louis) Intermediate Member Username: Louis Post Number: 279 Registered: 12-2010 |
The idea that objective justification militates against justification through faith alone is based on pure confusion. Precisely the opposite is the case. Anyone who rejects objective justification rejects justification through faith alone. He may believe in justification because of faith, but he doesn't believe in justification through faith. If justification is through faith it must precede faith. Duh! This isn't rocket science. But Rydecki denies that justification precedes faith. Therefore it is he, not the WELS, that denies justification through faith alone. Intrepid Lutherans, my eye! [GJ - Get out the rack. Now! Celebrate the Reformation the old-fashioned way: burning Lutherans at the stake.] | ||
| Karl Pierson (Karl_pierson) Senior Member Username: Karl_pierson Post Number: 1590 Registered: 1-2009 |
Well said, Louis. What a strange monster the Jacksonites have made of faith! Faith, and not *justification* by faith, has become their chief doctrine. And that will lead to Schleiermachian self-delusion, if not in them, then in their hearers. I pray that Rydecki recants and repents, for his own sake and for his sheep's sake. [GJ - Read the Cliff Notes on Schleiermacher? He was OJ, too, Mr. Anonymous Fake Name.] | ||
| Christian Schulz (Schulzcj) New member Username: Schulzcj Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2012 |
Justification is the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinner. How on earth is that objective, Louis? How was I imputed with Christ's righteousness prior to my God-given faith? Justification by faith alone is not rocket science. We are accounted righteous and holy when we receive faith from the Holy Spirit. Not hard. However, saying that the whole world has been justified (imputed with Christ's righteousness) prior to faith is ludicrous -- that is, if we're running with how Scripture and the Confessions define justification. This is simple, simple stuff -- sola fide, sola fide, sola fide. There is no other justification except the one and only justification and imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith alone. | ||
| Daniel Baker (Livinthehylife) New member Username: Livinthehylife Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2011 |
"If we want to be Dresden Lutherans, then we will teach justification by faith alone as the chief article of the Christian faith. The justification of the poor sinner before God is presented explicitly and quite exhaustively in the Lutheran Confessions (and by other 16th Century Lutheran theologians) as including four key components, without any of which the poor sinner is not, in any sense, justified before God: 1) the grace of God, 2) the merit of Christ, 3) the means of grace, and 4) faith in Christ. The Confessions do not speak of a sense in which all sinners have already been justified before God whether they believe in Christ or not, nor do I believe the Scriptures to teach such a thing, yet such is commonly heralded among Lutherans today as the “central teaching of the Bible.” I contend that our Dresden forefathers did not miss anything or take anything for granted in this chief article of the Christian faith. Forgiveness of sins, life and salvation were, indeed, won for all people by Christ on the cross, through His merit alone. But no one is forgiven, justified, made alive or saved apart from the means of grace and apart from faith in Christ, which is graciously worked by the Holy Spirit. Dresden Lutherans would never think of qualifying Luther’s battle cry, “Faith alone justifies!”, with “Yes, but, only in a subjective sense, since we know that all people are already justified without faith!" (Rev. Paul Rydecki, "Do We Want To Be Dresden Lutherans?", P.10). |
6-20-2011 - email from Joe Krohn:
Most laity are not
aware of this doctrine. They have been lulled to sleep by it for some time
now. I went round and round with my dear mom last evening. She is WELS
Letter off to DP
Glaeske and the Patterson cult tonite…hard certified copies in the mail
tomorrow…
Keep up the
fight!
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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Warming Up the Tar and Feathers on LutherQuest. No...":
Following Joe Krohn's reconversion to Universal Justification Without Faith (UJWF) he has been twice the son of his father below in his name calling, rage and baseless accusations.
Dr. Cruz and I just completed another round with him on Extra Nos where Joe was trumpeting his singularly sourced universal reconciliation UOJ doctrine - which was firmly trounced by the Christian Book of Concord. Joe used a BOC sentence which bestowed both reconciliation and eternal salvation in the same sentence. He wants to apply the reconciliation to the whole world but not take responsibility for the eternal salvation (Universalism) caused by his taking the sentence out of context.
Discussion can be read here:
http://extranos.blogspot.com/2012/09/uojers-are-huberites-their-denials-are.html
With a chief doctrine like UOJ, who needs enemies. The doctrine is so entirely contradictory it practically defeats itself as long as the UOJists just keep talking.
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David Becker has left a new comment on your post "Warming Up the Tar and Feathers on LutherQuest. No...":
I notice that on Lutherquest "Karl Pierson" (which I guess is a pseudonym) writes:
"From 'The Biblical Doctrine of Justification on One Page:'
"God credits the righteousness of Christ only to those who believe in Jesus, and thus justifies only those who believe in Jesus. (John 3:16-18, 36; Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:26; 4:5; 10:10; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:8-9)
"These are Paul Rydecki's words..."
What is wrong with Paul Rydecki's words there? Nothing.
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Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1339 Registered: 12-2004 |
Uh ohh! Here we go again. Actually, I am being a bit facitious. I think it important that we have this out every opportunity we get. So... Christian Schulz writes: There is no other justification except the one and only justification and imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith alone. By that statement, Mr. Schulz, you have just made your faith the object of your faith because, according to your statement, faith must precede justification. If faith precedes justification, it has nothing in which to believe except itself. It's not only unScriptural, which is most important, but it is also non-sensical. Faith is the passive reception of God's Gospel declaration that your sins are forgiven because the sins of the world were taken away when Christ bore them on the cross. To be forgiven is to be declared righteous. Your assertion turns faith upon itself by making it some legal thing that you must obtain before you can possess righteousness. So you must conclude, to be consistent, that your faith is the cause of your salvation and that salvation is not entirely by grace. We who cling to the doctrine of objective justification do not deny justification by grace through faith. Objective justification establishes it because it keeps the proper definition of faith, which, again, is the passive reception of God's declaration. If God didn't declare it, faith has nothing to receive. Franz [GJ - Very David Scaer-like.] |
| Daniel Baker (Livinthehylife) New member Username: Livinthehylife Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2011 |
Hogwash. Faith clings to Christ and His merits. His all-sufficient obedience has obtained forgiveness, life, and salvation for all people. These certainly precede faith and are what faith receives. But in no blessed sense does this equate to the heresy of universal justification. |
| Karl Pierson (Karl_pierson) Senior Member Username: Karl_pierson Post Number: 1591 Registered: 1-2009 |
"His all-sufficient obedience has obtained forgiveness, life, and salvation for all people." - Daniel Baker That is the definition of objective justification. [GJ - KP needs to study his own dogma better.] | ||
| Daniel Baker (Livinthehylife) New member Username: Livinthehylife Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2011 |
False. The definition of objective justification is that God "has declared [all sinners] righteous for the sake of Christ." There is a difference between Christ possessing forgiveness, life, and salvation for all men, and God making an ineffective declaration of righteousness for the reprobate. The former is biblical Christianity. The latter is a damnable heresy of the grossest sort. |
Christian Schulz (Schulzcj) New member Username: Schulzcj Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2012 |
Faith relies on Christ as Mediator, the propitiation, the Mercy Seat, His merits -- all as Daniel said. I said faith is God-given. Faith is that thing which God declares to be righteous. (Ap IV, 89) How is it at all a work of man when FAITH IS GIVEN BY GOD? If anything "objective justification" makes an individual look inward to his faith. If my justification is no different than the heathen, damned, unbeliever next to me, then all I have is to look at myself, my good works, and my faith because we're all justified anyway -- there's no difference between me and the unbeliever...God forgave them too, even though the holy spirit never brought them to repentance and faith. "The very voice of the Gospel is this, that by faith (C.S. - in Christ as the Mediator and Mercy Seat) we obtain the remission of sins." (Ap XII, 2) The voice of the Gospel is not, "you're already forgiven, just believe it! And then go tell your unrepentant neighbor that he's righteous too!" |
| Louis Benoit (Louis) Intermediate Member Username: Louis Post Number: 280 Registered: 12-2010 |
Here is what we Lutherans confess in the Augsburg Confession: Our churches also teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works but are freely justified for Christ’s sake through faith when they believe that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight (Rom. 3-4). Pay attention, Christian Schulz and Daniel Baker. Pay attention to the verb believe and the noun faith in order to learn what is the object of faith. According to AC IV men are freely justified through faith when they believe what? When they believe “that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins.” This is what faith believes. It believes that we are received into favor and that our sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins. When we speak of faith we are speaking of subjective justification. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight. What faith? The faith that believes that his sins are forgiven. “Are forgiven” is a reference to objective justification. There can be no subjective justification without a prior objective justification, for faith must have something to believe in. Anyone who denies objective justification denies justification by faith alone. | ||
| Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1340 Registered: 12-2004 |
Mr. Schulz, How did God give faith? Through the Word, right? Right! What word? The Gospel. Faith is created by and believes the Gospel. If God only justifies the believer, then justification must be something apart from the Gospel because the Gospel most certainly precedes faith. But it's not. Justication (sic) is the Gospel, and the Gospel is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, and this faith comes by hearing the Gospel it believes. If it comes by hearing the Gospel it believes then the Gospel must precede faith which means that justification must precede faith because it is the Gospel which saves. Franz | ||
| Louis Benoit (Louis) Intermediate Member Username: Louis Post Number: 281 Registered: 12-2010 |
What I am asking you two men to do is to take AC IV literally. It was crafted carefully and presents the biblical doctrine accurately. What does justifying faith believe? That's what you must consider. If you do so honestly, you will see that subjective justification requires objective justification. | ||
| Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1341 Registered: 12-2004 |
Christian Schulz writes: The voice of the Gospel is not, "you're already forgiven, just believe it! And then go tell your unrepentant neighbor that he's righteous too!" On the contrary, Mr. Schulz, that's exactly the voice of the Gospel. Yes, even Hitler, and Stalin, and Saul of Tarsus, the chief of sinners, were **declared** righteous **(justified)**. The problem you are having is that you are fixated on the difference between you and your unrepentant neighbor. Faith doesn't look for a distinction, it looks for a promise - the very promise which brought it into existence: Your sins are forgiven! I'll tell you here what I said on the "Karl Pierson for President" thread: Stop telling me what Jesus did for me if I believe, and just tell me what Jesus did. Franz |
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Relevant Links
LutherQuest (sic) Discussion -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/10/warming-up-tar-and-feathers-on.html
Martin Luther on the efficacy of the Word -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/05/blog-post.html
Robert Preus on Justification by Faith -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2011/05/robert-preus-justification-by-faith_7573.html
The Biblical View of Faith -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-biblical-view-of-faith-contradicts.html
Review of Rydecki Translation of Hunnius -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/09/book-review-of-theses-opposed-to.html
The Dresden Catechism -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/07/dresden-why-does-everything-happen-in.html
LutherQuest (sic) Discussion -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/10/warming-up-tar-and-feathers-on.html
Martin Luther on the efficacy of the Word -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/05/blog-post.html
Robert Preus on Justification by Faith -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2011/05/robert-preus-justification-by-faith_7573.html
The Biblical View of Faith -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-biblical-view-of-faith-contradicts.html
Review of Rydecki Translation of Hunnius -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/09/book-review-of-theses-opposed-to.html
The Dresden Catechism -
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/07/dresden-why-does-everything-happen-in.html
