ICHABOD, THE GLORY HAS DEPARTED - explores the Age of Apostasy, predicted in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, to attack Objective Faithless Justification, Church Growth Clowns, and their ringmasters. The antidote is trusting the efficacious Word in the Means of Grace. John 16:8. Isaiah 55:8ff. Romans 10. Most readers are WELS, LCMS, ELS, or ELCA. This blog also covers the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the National Council of Churches.
Sunday, November 14, 2010
Gerhard and Calov in the Book of Concord? - Rydecki Dishonesty - Typical for UOJ
Rydecki claimed:
"By raising Christ from the dead God absolved him for our sins which had been imputed to him, and consequently he also absolved us in him. In the resurrection of Christ we are absolved from our sins, so that they are not able to condemn us any more before God." (Excitando Christum a mortuis absolvit eum Deus a peccatis nostris ipsi imputatis, ac proinde etiam nos in ipso absolvit. - In Christi resurrectione a peccatis nostris sumus absoluti, ut non amplius coram Dei iudicio nos condemnare possint.) – Johann Gerhard
"Christ's resurrection took place as an actual absolution from sin (respectu actualis a peccato absolutionis). As God punished our sins in Christ, upon whom He laid them and to whom He imputed them, as our Bondsman, so He also, by the very act of raising Him from the dead, absolved Him from our sins imputed to Him, and so He absolved also us in Him." – Abraham Calov
***
GJ - Which quotation is in the Book of Concord?
Answer - Neither one.
What is the source of the quotations?
Answer - Rydecki. He did not give a citation for either one. That would never be allowed in an accredited school. Scholars need the source, even if the source is wrong. Otherwise, people will just invent or twist their quotations.
Did Robert Preus, an expert in Post-BOC Orthodoxy refute these claims?
Answer - Yes. He did - in his book Justification and Rome.
What did those authors say?
Answer -
From Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant (second edition), p. 108:
However, Preus clarified the true meaning of justification in his final book, Justification and Rome, p. 72, which was published posthumously. Preus wrote this definitive comment:
"But the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinner takes place when the Holy Spirit brings him to faith through Baptism and the Word of the Gospel. Our sins were imputed to Christ at His suffering and death, imputed objectively after He, by His active and passive obedience, fulfilled and procured all righteousness for us. But the imputation of His righteousness to us takes place when we are brought to faith."
Preus immediately followed the statement above with a quotation from Quenstedt, one of his favorite orthodox Lutheran authors:
It is not just the same thing to say, “Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us” and to say “Christ is our righteousness.” For the imputation did not take place when Christ became our righteousness. The righteousness of Christ is the effect of His office. The imputation is the application of the effect of His office. The one, however, does not do away with the other. Christ is our righteousness effectively when He justifies us. His righteousness is ours objectively because our faith rests in Him. His righteousness is ours formally in that His righteousness is imputed to us.
Preus also quoted Abraham Calov with approval:
"Although Christ has acquired for us the remission of sins, justification, and sonship, God just the same does not justify us prior to our faith. Nor do we become God's children in Christ in such a way that justification in the mind of God takes place before we believe."
However, Preus clarified the true meaning of justification in his final book, Justification and Rome, p. 72, which was published posthumously. Preus wrote this definitive comment:
"But the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinner takes place when the Holy Spirit brings him to faith through Baptism and the Word of the Gospel. Our sins were imputed to Christ at His suffering and death, imputed objectively after He, by His active and passive obedience, fulfilled and procured all righteousness for us. But the imputation of His righteousness to us takes place when we are brought to faith."
Preus immediately followed the statement above with a quotation from Quenstedt, one of his favorite orthodox Lutheran authors:
It is not just the same thing to say, “Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us” and to say “Christ is our righteousness.” For the imputation did not take place when Christ became our righteousness. The righteousness of Christ is the effect of His office. The imputation is the application of the effect of His office. The one, however, does not do away with the other. Christ is our righteousness effectively when He justifies us. His righteousness is ours objectively because our faith rests in Him. His righteousness is ours formally in that His righteousness is imputed to us.
Preus also quoted Abraham Calov with approval:
"Although Christ has acquired for us the remission of sins, justification, and sonship, God just the same does not justify us prior to our faith. Nor do we become God's children in Christ in such a way that justification in the mind of God takes place before we believe."
What does the Book of Concord say?
Answer -
"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which could not attain ourselves."
The Large Catechism, The Creed, Article III, #38, Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 689. Tappert, p. 415.
"But outside of this Christian Church, where the Gospel is not, there is no forgiveness, as also there can be no holiness [sanctification]. Therefore all who seek and wish to merit holiness [sanctification], not through the Gospel and forgiveness of sin, but by their works, have expelled and severed themselves [from this Church]."
The Large Catechism, The Creed, Article III, #56, Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 693. Tappert, p. 418.***
GJ -
Note the hand-me-down quotations noted: JP Meyer, Becker then Webber then Rydecki. Rydecki hasn't studied this doctrine at all.
By raising Christ from the dead God absolved him for our sins which had been imputed to him, and consequently he also absolved us in him. In the resurrection of Christ we are absolved from our sins, so that they are not able to condemn us any more before God. (Excitando Christum a mortuis absolvit eum Deus a peccatis nostris ipsi imputatis, ac proinde etiam nos in ipso absolvit. - In Christi resurrectione a peccatis nostris sumus absoluti, ut non amplius coram Dei iudicio nos condemnare possint.) – Johann Gerhard (quoted in John P. Meyer, “Objective Justification,” in Our Great Heritage [Milwaukee: Northwestern Publishing House, 1991], Vol. 3, p. 42)
By raising [Christ] from the dead, [God] absolved him from our sins which had been imputed to him, and therefore he also absolved us in him that Christ’s resurrection might thus be the cause and the proof and the completion of our justification. – Johann Gerhard (Annotationes in Epist. ad Rom. [Jena, 1666], p. 156; quoted in Siegbert W. Becker, “Universal Justification,” in Our Great Heritage, p. 56)
Christ’s resurrection took place as an actual absolution from sin (respectu actualis a peccato absolutionis). As God punished our sins in Christ, upon whom He laid them and to whom He imputed them, as our Bondsman, so He also, by the very act of raising Him from the dead, absolved Him from our sins imputed to Him, and so He absolved also us in Him. – Abraham Calov (Bibl. Illust., ad Rom. 4:25; quoted in Francis Pieper, Christian Dogmatics, Vol. III [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1951], p. 321).
***
GJ - This is called academic dishonesty, or footnote stealing. The quotation implies the author looked up this material when he did not. Rydecki is quoting Webber, who is quoting JP Meyer and Becker, OJ Stormtroopers, who are quoting from what source? The trail goes cold, Gibbs.
UOJ is a self-perpetuating racket.
WELS Church and Change - Swallowing the Holy Ghost, Feathers and All
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Star of Bethlehem Lutheran Church
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 5:57:59 PM
Subject: Re: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
All,
It sounds like some toes have been stepped on. We just started a men's Bible study that is meeting twice a month. It's going well. We have fellowship (think food), Bible study, we pray for each other and then call it a night. I know that the Spirit works through that. It's not flashy, but the men who attend are encouraged and want to keep doing it.
The idea of having a larger WELS Men's ministry arm isn't wrong, but it's difficult to organize. After being here in Winston eight years, I'm thrilled to have a Bible study. I'm plowing through Philippians under the theme of competition. I think men can relate to the thrill of victory better than just "joy". My mother-in-law puts the word "joy" all over her house - I don't mind that, but that's not something guys normally do - I know stereo type. There is a book - Why men hate going to church that talked about the differences between guys and gals (there are some). I watched the video - you would have to pay me to hug another man.
As for pointing out an ELCA ministry, yeah it may be benign as a concept, but just the fact that it has ELCA attached to it makes most WELS pastor's scream and run the other way. I'm saddened that I have more in common with many of my Baptist neighbors than I do with the ELCA churches. I know you can't throw all ELCA folks under the bus - I'm sure there are some Christians in ELCA.
The other thing is kind of little, maybe it's semantic. WELS Lutherans - at least me - get nervous when we hear - being obedient to the Spirit, being led by the Spirit. Brian said, "Goodness is one of the virtues imparted to us by the Holy Spirit. We could only function well as Christian if we are obedient to the Holy Spirit. We can become the good trees that produce good fruits as the Holy Spirit moves us." Ok - I think I get what you're saying, but it's rapidly approaching seeking God where he may not be found. I am not aware of the Holy Spirit's promptings. I know that he lives in me. I know that the good things I do come from him, but I don't feel his presence. I don't want to feel his presence. Why is it that the sanctification train needs to be hijacked by feelings? I know what Jesus did; out of thanks I want to let me light shine before men so that they might see my good deeds and praise him. I pray to God the Holy Spirit to help me and... he does. God's already prepared good things for me to do! It's like when my dad bought me a present for my mom on mother's day - all I had to do was wrap it and put my name on it. The fruit tree effortlessly produces fruit. The saints on the last day in Matt 25:37 are unaware of their good works.
May the Spirit fill your life even if you can't feel it ;)
--
Pastor Fred Guldberg
Star of Bethlehem Lutheran Church
1355 Jonestown Rd
Winston Salem, NC 27103
336-705-1523
On 11/14/2010 3:10 PM, brianandtracey tds.net wrote:
Hello List serves members,
As one of the Church and Change Board of Directors, I wanted to clarify that our new list serve member Dave is not of the ELCA. He and his family have been long time members of the WELS. God introduced us through Pastor Jeske. The Holy Spirit has personally inspired Dave to make an attempt at men’s ministry. His “One year to live” efforts have been ignored at almost every turn. Kindness in the WELS at is best? I think we can do better.
I have the same personal struggles when it comes to the topic of member ministry CEO ministries. A few years ago a WELS Pastor asked me “who gave you permission to start CEO Ministries?” I took a few moments to think about my answer and remembered reading this from the book titled “His Word, our delight” and answered, Simply the Mean’s (sic) of Grace. The Passion of Christ earned it. His resurrection sealed it. The Gospel message guarantees it! He walked away speechless. [GJ - Appalled by the ignorance, arrogance, or the spelling?]
Our member ministries our by-products from God’s Word and messages we hear from the pulpit. They are cultivated fruits of faithfulness produced by the Holy Spirit. Let’s look at few of them;
(GOODNESS)
According to Jesus, only one possess this virtue, and that is God as he counsel the rich young ruler. How does goodness differ from kindness? The word is synonymous to suitable or worthy. The term is also used for the servant who invested well his resources.
He is called good and faithful servant. It also indicates that something is functioning well. If we said that this watch is no good anymore, it won't keep track of the right time any longer. Jesus said that a good tree produces goof fruit, that is the tree functions properly.
Something is good when it works. Even if the methods are alien to traditional ministry efforts, Jesus constantly produced parables that didn’t match up to traditional teachings and He never failed. His teachings made a lasting and profound lasting impression.
Goodness is one of the virtues imparted to us by the Holy Spirit. We could only function well as Christian if we are obedient to the Holy Spirit. We can become the good trees that produce good fruits as the Holy Spirit moves us.
(GENTLENESS)
Gentleness is synonymous to meekness. Jesus claimed meekness for himself and significantly coupled it with being “lowly in heart.” His meekness is worthy of our imitation. Meekness of a Christian is displayed by accepting God’s dealings with us as good without any resistance. This is a display of lowliness before God and humility before men.
If our efforts of goodness are met with coldness, go unappreciated, are mis-understood, are repaid with cruelty, or arrogance, I pray to God that He help keep me company, and encourage me by helping me remember Jesus fruits of love were met with the same attitude. He went through more than I can ever imagine. He was captured, questioned, tried, convicted, beaten, bruised, nailed to the cross, and suffered death.
Praise God for Jesus resurrection!
Member ministries should beyond the shadow of doubt partner with our WELS Pastor’s (sic) and congregations. I constantly hear even today, “I don’t where CEO ministries is going to fit, or if it will at our church.” All my life of 42 years I’ve heard go out and preach to all nations, sang hymns like “Stand up for Jesus,” and “Here am I send me.” Now that God has dusted me off, cleaned me up through sanctification, my efforts have been met with scowl faces, and pastoral resistance for past seven years.
Praise God for showering me with the same underserved Grace He expects me to use by remaining faithfully patient.
Christ’s Love, our calling?
Isn’t everyone called?
God Bless
Brian Arthur Lampe
CEO-ministries.org
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Carl Graf
Greetings all,
I have been a WELS Lutheran through my entire half century of life. I have two uncles who were WELS ministers, a cousin-in-law who is a WLES minister and two cousins who teach Christian day school. My father served on the WELS Synod Finance committee for almost 25 years. I myself was a signature away from attending seminary myself, when my youngest son was born with Down Syndrome and the Lord told me that he had other plans for my discipleship and put me on a new path.
I'm relatively new to this group. If I may humbly comment on a word that was recently used. That word is "WELS-ify". Hearing that word and further discussions regarding being "too close to ELCA" and others who don't share our fellowship, made me feel a little unsettled, almost embarrassed, knowing that there very likely are members of the ELCA silently listening to our discussions just as I was until now.
While it is very important to be true to what the Word teaches, I also believe that we must ask God to help us guard against an arrogance which pushes others away, rather than living a Christlike life where others are drawn to us and want to have what we have. People who call themselves WELS lutherans are not the only people that will go to heaven, Heaven will be filled with Baptist, Catholics, Methodists, and others who have in their hearts accepted Jesus as their savior. In fact considering WELS short existence on this little planet, we will very likely be a very small minority once we get there. I always try to remind others in my own church when the discussion sways to talking about those "other" churches, that Jesus wasn't a WELS luthern, neither was Abraham, Noah, Moses... etc...
If Jesus were alive today he wouldn't be only in a listserve with WELS lutherans, but groups for pedophiles, homosexuals, and other groups whom appear to us as resisting God's love more than others.
Finally, I want to humbly remind us all that when we push others way, we judge them, and God was pretty clear about who is qualified to do the judging. With that said, I agree that there are probably individuals who are members of the ELCA in this group and I would invite them to share their thoughts, so we can find our similarities and grow towards the Truth from that point.
Think about it. A member of an ELCA church in this listserve. If that isn't a God given opportunity to share His Truth, then I don't know what is. :)
Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts.
Carl
On 11/12/2010 10:56 AM, Matthew Krenke wrote:
Thanks Chris, I too agree with everything you wrote.
My concern is that if this is being used to advertise or promote a gathering within our fellowship (and I know some of the history was explained in earlier postings), a person could easily do what I did, Google "Lutheran Men in Mission," and go striaght (sic) to an ELCA site. There are plenty of people not of our fellowship on this list serve, and I don't take it lightly when we are tied too closely to ELCA, unless they one day get their house in order. Even if it weren't tied to ELCA, I would much have preferred seeing a vignette of someone who explained how he was taken back to the Word of God, and encouraged to examine his relationship with the Lord, and lifted up by the message of forgiveness in Christ. This may very well be what happens at this event.. then say that. Then we're giving testimony to our value of and trust in God's word.
Please forgive me if my original posting seemed to harsh,no offense was intended.
- Matt
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
From: marksalzwedel@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:15:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
>we can certainly do better by adding the word of God and how it strengthens faith.
I think this is the crux of the issue - do we view sanctification as our work, with God's Word "added" in as an ingredient - or is it solely the work of God's Word? The problem with most of these Evangelical-style programs is not that they explicitly espouse false doctrines (those are easy to fix and "WELS-ify"), but that they are founded on assumptions that undermine the efficacy of Scripture/Means of Grace.
That said, I sometimes come down on either side of these kinds of debates, and I haven't had time to investigate the particulars of what is being discussed here - just making a general observation.
- Mark
From: Christopher Hoppe
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 12, 2010 9:58:00 AM
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
I agree with everything Matt said, but I also think we need to be careful we don't become too critical of other ministries, so as not to extinguish the fire that the Holy Spirit has started in the hearts of others. We know the ELCA has gotten too social at times and have put activity above the word and I don't agree with that either. Keep it Christ centered and let the word ignite your faith!
The video is usually a way to get people in the door, a teaser per se. It would certainly be better that they say that it's God's Word that is the source of all our strength, we as pastors know that, and I hope and pray that it's there! Getting together with like minded men is certainly something that can bolster faith as we share experiences in life and how we can tackle real life issues with God's help and the help of fellow brothers in the faith. A support system is not necessarily bad - as God encourages us to carry each other's burdens and build each other up.
There are many men out there who are not living their faith, but are running away from it. How can we get to men where they are? How can we reach out to them to help them speak their faith and live in the calling they have received? It it's through a venue like this -- then praise God from whom all blessings flow! Let's not get too critical or jump to conclusions.
And if it's a WELS member getting it going - we should take their words and actions in the kindest possible way and trust that they are Christ centered. I am encouraged as a pastor to teach my people to go out with their faith and share it, but I put a yoke around their necks and tell them what they can and cannot do, and sometimes we end up choking out the faith the Holy Spirit has put there. Let's encourage.... let's dig into the word... and let's pray that God would open doors for us to reach out with the love of Christ! The video was just a template and idea for us to put into action in our midst, we can certainly do better by adding the word of God and how it strengthens faith.
Chris Hoppe
--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Matthew Krenke
From: Matthew Krenke
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 9:34 AM
I watched the video. I learned that real men wear pink. I learned that if you go to this "One Year to Live" program you might be moved to take part in some social gospel enterprise (that's what the ministries mentioned sounded like). I heard lots of talk about how they grew in their faith. I don't quite know how this video was to give me proof of this internal, spiritual growth, but what I did see had no mention of sin and grace, of which increasing your understanding is the only way to grow in faith. I heard an appeal to financially support a ministry I don't feel I could. I understand the intent, that as Christian men we need our brothers to rely on, and I commend its intent. I recommend getting into the Word and being strengthened, in the Bible studies and activities that are probably already going on in your own congregation. What do we do with this great wonderful truth? We share it. We don't need to huddle together with like-minded brothers to do that.
Pastor Matt Krenke - Zion Lutheran , Valentine, Nebraska
http://www.youtube.com/user/LutheranMenInMission#p/a/u/1/JCJzH5RbvJU
--
Pastor Fred Guldberg
Star of Bethlehem Lutheran Church
1355 Jonestown Rd
Winston Salem, NC 27103
336-705-1523
Philippians 3:18-19
Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
KJV Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
The Twenty-Third Sunday after Trinity
The Twenty-Third Sunday after Trinity
Pastor Gregory L. Jackson
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bethany-lutheran-worship
Bethany Lutheran Church, 10 AM Central Time
The Hymn # 29 Praise to the Lord 3:1
The Confession of Sins
The Absolution
The Introit p. 16
The Gloria Patri
The Kyrie p. 17
The Gloria in Excelsis
The Salutation and Collect p. 19
The Epistle and Gradual
The Gospel
Glory be to Thee, O Lord!
Praise be to Thee, O Christ!
The Nicene Creed p. 22
The Sermon Hymn #246 Holy, Holy, Holy 3:35
Citizenship in Heaven
The Communion Hymn #316 O Living Bread 3:45
The Preface p. 24
The Sanctus p. 26
The Lord's Prayer p. 27
The Words of Institution
The Agnus Dei p. 28
The Nunc Dimittis p. 29
The Benediction p. 31
The Hymn # 309 O Jesus Blessed Lord 3:70
KJV Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
KJV Matthew 22:15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. 16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. 17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? 18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? 19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. 20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. 22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.
Twenty-Third Sunday After Trinity
Lord God, heavenly Father: we thank Thee that Thou hast hitherto granted us peace and graciously spared us from war and foreign dominion: We pray Thee, graciously let us continue to live in Thy fear according to Thy will, giving no cause for wars or other punishment; govern and direct our magistrates, that they may not hinder the obedience due to Thee, but maintain righteousness, that we may enjoy happiness and blessing under their government, through our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, one true God, world without end. Amen.
Citizenship in Heaven – Not in the Chow Line
This passage is one of the clearest Law and Gospel passages.
The first part condemns the wrong path in life and describes the results.
I have no doubts that the people described in the first part are within the visible church, or once were and fell away. Many times that is not an obvious change, but one which takes place over many years and decades.
Many heard the Gospel and joined with great joy, but following Mark 4 (Matthew 13) they had the implanted faith snatched away from them or became consumed by the cares of the world.
The same reaction can be seen today, taking place over a period of time. What might have been indicated at first is now blossoming in its glory. As I once observed in gardening, “Is that a weed?” became rank growth when left alone.
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
This urging by Paul does not mean that he alone is the example, but that sincere believers should imitate one another. In that way we serve to admonish each other before someone wanders off in the wrong direction.
“Mark” means to examine closely, so we get “remarkable” from that verb.
KJV Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
These passages have been changed in intent, to protect the false teachers. Now the organizations use Mennonite shunning to silence and ostracize anyone who dares to mention that false doctrine is being taught.
KJV Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
The verb “walk” is used to include a whole range of behavior. If there is a gulf between behavior and supposed belief, then that person ought to re-examine what is believed. As Luther said, more than once, our outward behavior says a lot about our repentance or lack of repentance.
I told one young husband, “When you hang out with potheads after work, you are telling your wife that they are more important than she is. And you expect her to welcome you when you finally come home, smelling like marijuana?” I added that they were sure losers, and they felt better if he added to their numbers.
That is one of the dynamics about error, whether it means engaging in obvious carnal behavior or falling for false doctrine. Error loves company and hates correction of any kind.
Paul in his travels had a lot of experience in seeing people fall away and become trapped in their own carnal nature. Then, as now, the world culture encouraged the worst.
KJV Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
This four-fold description shows how all-inclusive this behavior is.
1. It can only end in destruction. For example, one Assemblies of God TV show featured “ministers” carrying on off-stage just before getting on camera and weeping about how they loved Jesus.
2. Literally “God belly”,
3. “glory in shame”. The expressions in the text show how emphatic Paul is. Making the belly God includes all the aspects of our carnal nature, from greed to lust to gluttony. False teachers love to glory in how they are getting away with it. I know of several cases where they published or announced their gloating. One religion lecturer used to denounce all the articles of faith and say, “There God did not strike me down.” Those religion teachers are greatly valued in academic life because they reinforce the atheistic nature of our culture.
4. who mind earthly things. They obsess about their rewards on earth and forget about the Kingdom of God. Step by step they become atheists. One pastor promoted Church Growth and found himself promoted as a “conservative Lutheran.” Then he was finally caught in adultery and kicked out. Now he is an atheist. Who is that? I am thinking of three different men, and I knew all three. And there is a fourth…the list goes on.
The Ten Commandments are natural law – God commands what is good for us. If we defy those commandments, about pure doctrine and behavior, we will pay a price. My radio announcer friend said he used to work out in the hot sun in construction, drinking chocolate milk and eating doughnuts. He said he gave it up when he got dizzy and could not work.
These matters are too obvious. Anyone embarking on false doctrine will find himself damaged and blinded by the misuse of the Word. Likewise, engaging in sinful behavior will lead more obviously to destruction. That is why false doctrine is more dangerous, because the effects are less obvious and often take a long time to show up. I have pointed out how the notable TV frauds of today once looked and sounded normal, somewhat conservative. Now they act and look demonic.
20 For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
I do not know where “conversation” came from – in King James English. The word Paul used means “citizenship.” Believers are spiritual citizens of the Kingdom of God, whether they belong to one country or another.
Luther took the long view. If we trust in pure doctrine, we will have the cross as our companion, a short period of turmoil in which everything is challenged – one way or another. We will have a short period of affliction, eternal peace with Christ the life hereafter.
If we trust in the ways of man, if our bellies come first, we will have great peace and rewards in this life. Apostates are adored and rewarded in dozens of ways. Almost every academic teacher of religion is an atheist, and many of them started out to be ministers. The ministers loved by politicians are the bad ones. So earthly peace and rewards are great but short-lived. “Their end is destruction” means eternal suffering.
in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ
At some time in the future, Christ will return and claim everything promised. The vast majority will say, “It really was true.” The minority will rejoice and say, “We believed it. We knew it.”
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Final judgment will mean an end to history, and a complete resurrection of all who have died.
KJV John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Just as the Gospel Word calls us to faith and declares us forgiven, so will the Word of Christ call us from the grave and glorify our bodies, making them like His. Those who died unbelieving will have the opposite fate.
God’s promises are always kept, unlike man’s. His promise of grace is accompanied by the Instruments of His grace, the Word and Sacraments. Justification is always His declaration – it belongs to the work of His Word.
Behold a Host Arrayed in White
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tu4GePxRs8&feature=related
"Behold a Host, Arrayed in White"
by Hans A. Brorson, 1694-1764
1. Behold a host, arrayed in white,
Like thousand snow-clad mountains bright,
With palms they stand. Who is this band
Before the throne of light?
Lo, these are they of glorious fame
Who from the great affliction came
And in the flood of Jesus' blood
Are cleansed from guilt and blame.
Now gathered in the holy place,
Their voices they in worship raise,
Their anthems swell where God doth dwell,
Mid angels' songs of praise.
2. Despised and scorned, they sojourned here;
But now, how glorious they must appear!
Those martyrs stand a priestly band,
God's throne forever near.
So oft, in troubled days gone by,
In anguish they would weep and sigh,
At home above the God of Love
For aye their tears shall dry.
They now enjoy their Sabbath rest,
The paschal banquet of the blest;
The Lamb, their Lord, at festal board
Himself is Host and Guest.
3. Then hail, ye mighty legions, yea,
All hail! Now safe and blest for aye,
And praise the Lord, who with His Word
Sustained you on the way.
Ye did the joys of earth disdain,
Ye toiled and sowed in tears and pain.
Farewell, now bring your sheaves and sing
Salvation's glad refrain.
Swing high your palms, lift up your song,
Yea, make it myriad voices strong,
Eternally shall praise to Thee,
God, and the Lamb belong.
Hymn #656
The Lutheran Hymnal
Text: Revelation 7:13-17
Author: Hans Adolf Brorson, c. 1760
Translated by: composite
Titled: "Den store hvide Flok vi se"
Norwegian folk-tune, c. 1600
Tune: "Great White Host"
Arranged by: Edvard H. Grieg, 1907, ad.
Religion briefing - JSOnline
Religion briefing - JSOnline
Faith community figures discuss books
Two well-known figures in Milwaukee's faith community will discuss their latest books in separate events over the next week.
Theologian and Marquette University associate professor Father Bryan Massingale will talk about "Racial Justice and the Catholic Church" from 8:30 a.m. to noon Nov. 20 as part of a Black Catholic History Month program at All Saints Catholic Church, 4051 N. 25th St. Pre-registration is required at (414) 444-5610.
Christian television host and New Age Pastor Mark Jeske will talk about "Time of Grace," a compilation of Bible studies for busy people, at 9 a.m. Nov. 21 at his church, St. Mark and Avoid Lutheran, 2215 N. Palmer St.
Saturday, November 13, 2010
LPC from Extra Nos - Asking Intrepid Questions
LPC has left a new comment on your post "Book of Concord Study":
What I wrote to Rev. Rydecki just recently...
----
Pr. Paul,
Can we be confident that you are the official and proper expositor of UOJ/OJ?
If so, why do you think you have the proper handle on this?
Would Becker, Beckman, Walther, Pieper agree with you?
I am not trying to be disrespectful, I am just questioning you on this because these posts remind me a lot of things when I was in Calvinism.
When I was in Calvinism, there was a question of who was the "real Calvinist". So much so there was a joke asking for the "real Calvinist" to stand up.
Also this reminds me of damage control in Calvinism. Some tried to do a sales job on the bluntness for example of Limited Atonement and Sovereignty of God. They wanted to retain the label and redefine what it means so that the rugged edges are smoothened.
Also in history, Calvin tried to be the via-media between Zwingli and Luther on the Supper. Did he succeed? Nope, he failed.
I think you are trying to be the via-media also, but my best wishes for your efforts. Lessons from history has not been encouraging on via-media folk.
Lastly on the concept of Jesus winning justification for all sinner. Jesus did win the victory for all sinners by his death and resurrection. Atonement has gifts and benefits attached to that wonderful sacrifice. That is a fact.
However, your insisting to call this "objective justification" (if I am correct) IMHO is at best misguided if not problematic. Why? Because justification in the Bible is always connected with faith. This labeling allows one to stretch like a rubber band the semantic meaning of justification which the Scripture does not allow for. Let me illustrate. If one calls the fact that Jesus won justification for all as objective justification, one can easily also make the slide to saying that everyone has been forgiven automatically by what Jesus has won. This is exactly what has been happening. Why? Because the word objective and justification has that usual meaning and you are redefining its usual meaning and putting the label in the wrong spot.
WELS TWB IV 1, 1. We believe that God has justified all sinners, that is, he has declared them righteous for the sake of Christ. This is the central message of Scripture upon which the very existence of the church depends. It is a message relevant to people of all times and places, of all races and social levels, for "the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men" (Romans 5:18). All need forgiveness of sins before God, and Scripture proclaims that all have been justified, for "the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men" (Romans 5:18).
Do you believe this is an accurate reflection of what the Bible teaches?
My answer: NO, what is yours?
LS-MS Brief Statement...17 Scripture teaches that God has already declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18-21; Rom. 4:25; that therefore not for the sake of their good works,
Do you believe this is an accurate reflection of what the Bible teaches?
My answer: NO, what is yours?
Mt 5:37
LPC
CEO Promotion via Church and Change
Article XIV: Of Ecclesiastical Order.
Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called.
Or is on the Board of Jeske's Church and Change organization.
Led by Kudu Don and Jeff Gunn???
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: brianandtracey tds.net
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, October 21, 2010 6:05:00 PM
Subject: [church_and_change] CEO Ministries
Dear Church and Changers,
The only way to achieve change is to let go of fear!
But what if this constant battle makes one tired?
What are the options?
A) Give In?
B) Give up?
C) Give it away and let someone else fight?
D) Give it to God and His will be done?
Our CEO ministries group chooses letter (D) because it's Biblically
correct! We continue to fight the good fight in the name of Jesus
Christ! If your interested in joining us on the volunteer battle lines
or behind the scenes your help would be appreciated and welcomed.
The call to get involved, and engaged in ministry is its own journey
of adventure, risk, and discovery—is likewise a calling unsuited to
the faint of heart.
Building relationships, and helping people become all they can be for
Christ, not just programs or organizations. Our vision integrates all
Christians into the whole life of the church to share ministry ideas,
and provide encouragement that acts as a bridge to close the gap
between lost and saved.
Its only the Gospel motivation and empowerment that spurs our team to
become involved; to offer a creative, emotional and physical growth
that develops critical spiritual skills for family, school and
community service.
Our is vision is based on serving, not sitting like a pew potato.
Member ministry is not just parties and socials; it is equipping
Christians to be world changers for Christ.
Everyone is welcome and we are satisfied with how God created you.
Trained our untrained, no college degree , or experience necessary!
Ministry without executive style politics, just simply spreading the
Gospel message to as many as God allows. Not everyone gets this
privilege.
What a concept? We got that idea from God's Word as well.
Below our idea's (sic)
CEO Ministries Strategy & Focus:
1. To provide Christ Empowered Opportunities for fellowship, spiritual
growth through traditional time tested ministry tools, and
connect creative expression to innovative ministries that will
build - up and strengthen others in one true faith in Jesus Christ.
2. To foster and promote God enabled ideas and potentials of service
in the church and community.
3. Through our monthly Grill Kings encourage and promote through
prayer and Bible study a greater awareness of our Triune
God’s Kingdom values in living exemplary lives as demonstrated
by Jesus Christ.
4. To foster and encourage growth in love and unity within the body of Christ.
5. To develop and encourage integration of the cultural, social and
spiritual gifts within the body of Christ through our annual
interactive youth, youth leadership, marriage, and men's rally.
6. To provide a forum for discussion on issues inherent in the social,
moral, spiritual development of adults through our (bridge-
site) and annual innovative workshop.
7 Create a bridge - site presents opportunities to develop
friendships, dialogue, and that introduction to Christ that may never
existed. Common interests, hobbies, life situations, work
experiences, health conditions, causes, etc. can be used as the
“BRIDGE” to establish contact, and communicate resources.
Upcoming Presentations:
Fearless Faith Men's Workshop
Feb 4th - 6th 2011 Camp Shiloh TX
Men of His Word Conference Feb 26th 2011
Appleton WI
Battle Filled Life April 9th 2011
Frontanec MN
Youth Rally July 23-24 2011
Wisconsin Dells WI
Battle Filled Life November 5th 2011
Milwaukee, WI
Check out what God is doing through regular lay people;
Whole Health Healing
www.tompotisk.com
Mike Hallman
"Navigating Life's Lost and Found"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIW4pcukUc
Sincerely Christ
Brian Arthur Lampe
An Ambassador for Christ
414-915-3211
CEObalampe@gmail.com
Extreme Statements About Justification
KJV Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
KJV Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be
damned.
KJV John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJV John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shallnot see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
KJV John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of
judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, andye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
KJV Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven givenamong men, whereby we must be saved.
KJV Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
KJV Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confessionis made unto salvation.
KJV 1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not
God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
---
Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Extreme Statements About Justification":
UOJ's treatment of faith is foundational and results from UOJ's teaching that everything (Christ's righteousness distributed to the whole unbelieving world, that world declared guiltless, sinless and justified by God's divine verdict) was already accomplished and declared at Calvary. Here is a comparison between UOJ's teaching and the Luther and the Confessions.
WELS AZ/CA DP Pastor Jon Buchholz
"Faith doesn’t bring anything into existence that doesn’t already exist. Faith doesn’t cause something to happen. Faith simply grasps— trusts—something that already is in place." Page 14
http://archive.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=1161&contentID=76707&shortcutID=26388
WELS Siegbert W. Becker
"Faith does nothing more than accept the forgiveness proclaimed in the Gospel. It is not a condition we must fulfill before we can be forgiven. It is not a cause of forgiveness on account of which God forgives us. The forgiveness comes first. Faith is merely the response to the message. God says to us, "Your sins are forgiven." This is objective justification, and God’s message to us is true whether we believe it or not. Faith makes God’s message its own and says, "My sins are forgiven." This is subjective justification. The whole doctrine is just as simple as that." Page 12, The Place of Faith
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/BeckerJustification.PDF
WELS Our Great Heritage
"And yet many Lutherans still labor under the delusion that God does not forgive us unless we believe. Instead of seeing faith as nothing more than the spiritual hand with which we make the forgiveness of God our own, they see it as a reason why God forgives us. They believe that Christ has indeed provided forgiveness for all men, that God is willing to forgive them, but before he really forgives he first of all demands that we should be sorry for our sins and that we should have faith. Just have faith they say, and then God will forgive you. All the right words are there. The only thing wrong is that the words are in the wrong order. God does not forgive us IF we have faith. He has forgiven us long ago when he raised his Son from the dead." (p. 59)"
WELS MLC President Mark Zarling
"Faith does nothing more than receive the forgiveness which is offered in the Gospel. It is not a condition we fulfill nor is it a cause of forgiveness. We are already forgiven. God's message of justification in Christ is there whether we believe it or not. Faith then receives the blessings." And, "Faith that accepts the good news of universal justification is the work of God the Holy Ghost." And, "The other extreme is to stress subjective justification without understanding the objective reality. This error leads to synergism in one form or the other. Stressing faith as the cause of justification makes it a meritorious work. We have then destroyed the sola gratia of the Gospel, and cause men to look within themselves for the assurance of salvation." Page 7
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/ZarlingJustification.pdf
Compare and Contrast:
LUTHER
12. As before said, they regard faith of slight importance; for they do not understand that it is our sole justifier. To accept as true the record of Christ--this they call faith. The devils have the same sort of faith, but it does not make them godly. Such belief is not Christian faith; no, it is rather deception.
15. ...You see how they make faith of no value to themselves, and so must regard as heresy all doctrine based upon it. Thus they do away with the whole Gospel. These are they who deny the Christian faith and exterminate it from the world. Paul prophesied concerning them when he said (1 Tim 4, 1): "In later times some shall fall away from the faith." The voice of faith is now silenced all over the world. Indeed, faith is condemned and banished as the worst heresy, and all who teach and endorse it are condemned with it. The Pope, the bishops, charitable institutions, cloisters, high schools, unanimously opposed it for nearly four hundred years, and simply drove the world violently into hell. Their conduct is the real persecution by Antichrist, in the last times.
22. Now, the Cain-like saints have not, as they themselves confess, the Christian faith which would assure them of being the children of God. [Refer to 2 Cor. 13:5 for Scriptural declaration of this condemnation of UOJ's faith (read Zarlings quotes above) - Brett Meyer]
29. You cannot extricate yourself from unbelief, nor can the Law do it for you. All your works in intended fulfilment of the Law must remain works of the Law and powerless to justify in the sight of God, who regards as just only believing children.
37. Note, Paul everywhere teaches justification, not by works, but solely by faith; and not as a process, but instantaneous. The testament includes in itself everything--justification, salvation, the inheritance and great blessing. Through faith it is instantaneously enjoyed, not in part, but all. Truly is it plain, then, that faith alone affords such blessings of God, justification and salvation--immediately and not in process as must be the case with works
74. But what is the process whereby Christ gives us such a spirit and redeems us from under the Law? The work is effected solely by faith. He who believes that Christ came to redeem us, and that he has accomplished it, is really redeemed. As he believes, so is it with him. Faith carries with it the child-making spirit. The apostle here explains by saying that Christ has redeemed us from under the Law that we might receive the adoption of sons. As before stated, all must be effected through faith. Now we have discussed the five points of the verse.
http://www.trinitylutheranms.org/MartinLuther/MLSermons/Galatians4_1_7.html
LUTHERAN CONFESSIONS
Defense of the Augsburg Confession, Article IV Of Justification
67] "Faith cometh by hearing. And proof can be derived even from this that faith justifies, because, if justification occurs only through the Word, and the Word is apprehended only by faith, it follows that faith justifies."
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php
71] "but we maintain this, that properly and truly, by faith itself, we are for Christ's sake accounted righteous, or are acceptable to God. And because "to be justified" means that out of unjust men just men are made, or born again, it means also that they are pronounced or accounted just. For Scripture speaks in both ways. [The term "to be justified" is used in two ways: to denote, being converted or regenerated; again, being accounted righteous. Accordingly we wish first to show this, that faith alone makes of an unjust, a just man, i.e., receives remission of sins".
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php
Church and Change Listserve
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: SARAH OWENS
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 12, 2010 9:47:27 PM
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
As a Christian WELS woman, I've seen women recognize the desire and need to worship, study, fellowship with and encourage each other (ie. retreats, LWMS, women's bible studies). It is awesome to see Christian WELS men recognizing that men need encouragement too! We, women benefit as our men are lifted up by one another to use their gifts, talents and love for the Lord in their families, their churches, their "world." While starting new things may need to be preceeded (sic) by some discussion of mission and goals, always keeping Christ central, I hope we don't get overwhelmed by the challenges but pray alot (sic) and take steps as God allows and leads. Thanks for bringing up the idea.
Sarah
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
From: markbergemann@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:47:52 -0600
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
Hi all,
I have always assumed that this list serve was for WELS/ELS/Ichabod members only. I’ve been on ChurchAndChange since Dec 2004 and do not remember any posts indicating otherwise.
Even if there are some of our ELCA brothers and sisters in Christ on ChurchAndChange, then I still stand behind my previous post on this thread (there are at least 2 Marks who posted to this thread, I am Mark Bergemann). So many of the ELCA laity do not know that their church body, and possibly their own pastor, teaches things that directly attack the Gospel itself, such as all religions lead to the true God, and that Jesus did not physically rise from the dead. I personally know people in such a situation.
So many ELCA pastors preach and teach in ways that are acceptable to the two types of members in their congregations, those that believe they are sinners who are saved through the life and death of Jesus in their place, and those who believe that we should help others in this life and not worry about what happens after death.
I cannot in good conscience sit idly by and watch those I know who attend ELCA churches be lead (sic) away from Jesus. I am generally more careful and less blunt when reaching out to those in heterodox churches such as ELCA. If ChurchAndhange (sic) is open to anyone regardless of their religious affiliation, then I’ll have to change my future posts accordingly, as some of what I say may be misunderstood.
In Christian love for all people,
Mark Bergemann
From: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com [mailto:church_and_change@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Graf
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 7:39 PM
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
Greetings all,
I have been a WELS Lutheran through my entire half century of life. I have two uncles who were WELS ministers, a cousin-in-law who is a WLES (?) minister and two cousins who teach Christian day school. My father served on the WELS Synod Finance committee for almost 25 years. I myself was a signature away from attending seminary myself, when my youngest son was born with Down Syndrome and the Lord told me that he had other plans for my discipleship and put me on a new path.
I'm relatively new to this group. If I may humbly comment on a word that was recently used. That word is "WELS-ify". Hearing that word and further discussions regarding being "too close to ELCA" and others who don't share our fellowship, made me feel a little unsettled, almost embarrassed, knowing that there very likely are members of the ELCA silently listening to our discussions just as I was until now.
While it is very important to be true to what the Word teaches, I also believe that we must ask God to help us guard against an arrogance which pushes others away, rather than living a Christlike life where others are drawn to us and want to have what we have. People who call themselves WELS lutherans (sic) are not the only people that will go to heaven, Heaven will be filled with Baptist, Catholics, Methodists, and others who have in their hearts accepted Jesus as their savior. In fact considering WELS short existence on this little planet, we will very likely be a very small minority once we get there. I always try to remind others in my own church when the discussion sways to talking about those "other" churches, that Jesus wasn't a WELS luthern (double sic), neither was Abraham, Noah, Moses... etc...
If Jesus were alive today [GJ - note the doctrinal ignorance of the participants!] he wouldn't be only in a listserve with WELS lutherans (sic), but groups for pedophiles, homosexuals, and other groups whom appear to us as resisting God's love more than others.
Finally, I want to humbly remind us all that when we push others way, we judge them, and God was pretty clear about who is qualified to do the judging. With that said, I agree that there are probably individuals who are members of the ELCA in this group and I would invite them to share their thoughts, so we can find our similarities and grow towards the Truth from that point.
Think about it. A member of an ELCA church in this listserve. If that isn't a God given opportunity to share His Truth, then I don't know what is. :)
Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts.
Carl
On 11/12/2010 10:56 AM, Matthew Krenke wrote:
Thanks Chris, I too agree with everything you wrote.
My concern is that if this is being used to advertise or promote a gathering within our fellowship (and I know some of the history was explained in earlier postings), a person could easily do what I did, Google "Lutheran Men in Mission," and go striaght (sic) to an ELCA site. There are plenty of people not of our fellowship on this list serve, and I don't take it lightly when we are tied too closely to ELCA, unless they one day get their house in order. Even if it weren't tied to ELCA, I would much have preferred seeing a vignette of someone who explained how he was taken back to the Word of God, and encouraged to examine his relationship with the Lord, and lifted up by the message of forgiveness in Christ. This may very well be what happens at this event.. then say that. Then we're giving testimony to our value of and trust in God's word.
Please forgive me if my original posting seemed to harsh,no offense was intended.
- Matt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
From: marksalzwedel@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:15:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
>we can certainly do better by adding the word of God and how it strengthens faith.
I think this is the crux of the issue - do we view sanctification as our work, with God's Word "added" in as an ingredient - or is it solely the work of God's Word? The problem with most of these Evangelical-style programs is not that they explicitly espouse false doctrines (those are easy to fix and "WELS-ify"), but that they are founded on assumptions that undermine the efficacy of Scripture/Means of Grace.
That said, I sometimes come down on either side of these kinds of debates, and I haven't had time to investigate the particulars of what is being discussed here - just making a general observation.
- Mark
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Christopher Hoppe
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 12, 2010 9:58:00 AM
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
I agree with everything Matt said, but I also think we need to be careful we don't become too critical of other ministries, so as not to extinguish the fire that the Holy Spirit has started in the hearts of others. We know the ELCA has gotten too social at times and have put activity above the word and I don't agree with that either. Keep it Christ centered and let the word ignite your faith!
The video is usually a way to get people in the door, a teaser per se. It would certainly be better that they say that it's God's Word that is the source of all our strength, we as pastors know that, and I hope and pray that it's there! Getting together with like minded men is certainly something that can bolster faith as we share experiences in life and how we can tackle real life issues with God's help and the help of fellow brothers in the faith. A support system is not necessarily bad - as God encourages us to carry each other's burdens and build each other up.
There are many men out there who are not living their faith, but are running away from it. How can we get to men where they are? How can we reach out to them to help them speak their faith and live in the calling they have received? It it's through a venue like this -- then praise God from whom all blessings flow! Let's not get too critical or jump to conclusions.
And if it's a WELS member getting it going - we should take their words and actions in the kindest possible way and trust that they are Christ centered. I am encouraged as a pastor to teach my people to go out with their faith and share it, but I put a yoke around their necks and tell them what they can and cannot do, and sometimes we end up choking out the faith the Holy Spirit has put there. [GJ - Pietism can sound pretty nutty at times, with pastors fighting the Holy Spirit and winning.] Let's encourage.... let's dig into the word... and let's pray that God would open doors for us to reach out with the love of Christ! The video was just a template and idea for us to put into action in our midst, we can certainly do better by adding the word of God and how it strengthens faith.
Chris Hoppe
--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Matthew Krenke
From: Matthew Krenke
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 9:34 AM
I watched the video. I learned that real men wear pink. I learned that if you go to this "One Year to Live" program you might be moved to take part in some social gospel enterprise (that's what the ministries mentioned sounded like). I heard lots of talk about how they grew in their faith. I don't quite know how this video was to give me proof of this internal, spiritual growth, but what I did see had no mention of sin and grace, of which increasing your understanding is the only way to grow in faith. I heard an appeal to financially support a ministry I don't feel I could. I understand the intent, that as Christian men we need our brothers to rely on, and I commend its intent. I recommend getting into the Word and being strengthened, in the Bible studies and activities that are probably already going on in your own congregation. What do we do with this great wonderful truth? We share it. We don't need to huddle together with like-minded brothers to do that.
Pastor Matt Krenke - Zion Lutheran , Valentine, Nebraska
http://www.youtube.com/user/LutheranMenInMission#p/a/u/1/JCJzH5RbvJU
***
GJ - Lutheran Men in Mission is ELCA, but hey, WELS has worked with ELCA for decades.
ELCA likes Susan B. Komen because SBK has given millions of dollars to Planned Parenthood.
http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Ministry/Lutheran-Men-in-Mission.aspx
Komen and Planned Parenthood.
More here.
__,_._,___
Schuller Not So Positive Now
Crystal Cathedral had its day
When religion is reduced to a collection of gimmicks, there is little to stop it falling victim to changing fashions
Friday, November 12, 2010
If the Bride Marries the Spirit of This Age,
She May Be Left at the Altar
just in time for his suitor to be chased out of town.
LutherRocks has left a new comment on your post "Book of Concord Study":
I just posted this...not sure if it will see the light of day over there...
Pastor Rydecki and the Intrepid Lutherans...I see five names in the mast head of this blog. Seems Pastor Rydecki has been left hung out to dry and by his post of 8:32pm, 11-12-10 and all previous posts concerning justification. He looks like a leaf twisting in the wind. He is trying to make a gallant effort and yet I am having trouble discerning just where he stands as well as the rest of you.
"Things won't be solved in the synod by us at IL. If we can bring some of these issues to light to be further discussed at conferences and in congregations, we will have done all we're able to do."
I was actually hoping and praying for the opposite. This seems like a cop out. I am disappointed.
I have a couple of sayings that are quite apropos that most Lutherans can relate to that pertain here: Fish or cut bait.
But the Bible always has the last Word...
Revelation 3:14-16
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
JK
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