----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Star of Bethlehem Lutheran Church
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 5:57:59 PM
Subject: Re: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
All,
It sounds like some toes have been stepped on. We just started a men's Bible study that is meeting twice a month. It's going well. We have fellowship (think food), Bible study, we pray for each other and then call it a night. I know that the Spirit works through that. It's not flashy, but the men who attend are encouraged and want to keep doing it.
The idea of having a larger WELS Men's ministry arm isn't wrong, but it's difficult to organize. After being here in Winston eight years, I'm thrilled to have a Bible study. I'm plowing through Philippians under the theme of competition. I think men can relate to the thrill of victory better than just "joy". My mother-in-law puts the word "joy" all over her house - I don't mind that, but that's not something guys normally do - I know stereo type. There is a book - Why men hate going to church that talked about the differences between guys and gals (there are some). I watched the video - you would have to pay me to hug another man.
As for pointing out an ELCA ministry, yeah it may be benign as a concept, but just the fact that it has ELCA attached to it makes most WELS pastor's scream and run the other way. I'm saddened that I have more in common with many of my Baptist neighbors than I do with the ELCA churches. I know you can't throw all ELCA folks under the bus - I'm sure there are some Christians in ELCA.
The other thing is kind of little, maybe it's semantic. WELS Lutherans - at least me - get nervous when we hear - being obedient to the Spirit, being led by the Spirit. Brian said, "Goodness is one of the virtues imparted to us by the Holy Spirit. We could only function well as Christian if we are obedient to the Holy Spirit. We can become the good trees that produce good fruits as the Holy Spirit moves us." Ok - I think I get what you're saying, but it's rapidly approaching seeking God where he may not be found. I am not aware of the Holy Spirit's promptings. I know that he lives in me. I know that the good things I do come from him, but I don't feel his presence. I don't want to feel his presence. Why is it that the sanctification train needs to be hijacked by feelings? I know what Jesus did; out of thanks I want to let me light shine before men so that they might see my good deeds and praise him. I pray to God the Holy Spirit to help me and... he does. God's already prepared good things for me to do! It's like when my dad bought me a present for my mom on mother's day - all I had to do was wrap it and put my name on it. The fruit tree effortlessly produces fruit. The saints on the last day in Matt 25:37 are unaware of their good works.
May the Spirit fill your life even if you can't feel it ;)
--
Pastor Fred Guldberg
Star of Bethlehem Lutheran Church
1355 Jonestown Rd
Winston Salem, NC 27103
336-705-1523
On 11/14/2010 3:10 PM, brianandtracey tds.net wrote:
Hello List serves members,
As one of the Church and Change Board of Directors, I wanted to clarify that our new list serve member Dave is not of the ELCA. He and his family have been long time members of the WELS. God introduced us through Pastor Jeske. The Holy Spirit has personally inspired Dave to make an attempt at men’s ministry. His “One year to live” efforts have been ignored at almost every turn. Kindness in the WELS at is best? I think we can do better.
I have the same personal struggles when it comes to the topic of member ministry CEO ministries. A few years ago a WELS Pastor asked me “who gave you permission to start CEO Ministries?” I took a few moments to think about my answer and remembered reading this from the book titled “His Word, our delight” and answered, Simply the Mean’s (sic) of Grace. The Passion of Christ earned it. His resurrection sealed it. The Gospel message guarantees it! He walked away speechless. [GJ - Appalled by the ignorance, arrogance, or the spelling?]
Our member ministries our by-products from God’s Word and messages we hear from the pulpit. They are cultivated fruits of faithfulness produced by the Holy Spirit. Let’s look at few of them;
(GOODNESS)
According to Jesus, only one possess this virtue, and that is God as he counsel the rich young ruler. How does goodness differ from kindness? The word is synonymous to suitable or worthy. The term is also used for the servant who invested well his resources.
He is called good and faithful servant. It also indicates that something is functioning well. If we said that this watch is no good anymore, it won't keep track of the right time any longer. Jesus said that a good tree produces goof fruit, that is the tree functions properly.
Something is good when it works. Even if the methods are alien to traditional ministry efforts, Jesus constantly produced parables that didn’t match up to traditional teachings and He never failed. His teachings made a lasting and profound lasting impression.
Goodness is one of the virtues imparted to us by the Holy Spirit. We could only function well as Christian if we are obedient to the Holy Spirit. We can become the good trees that produce good fruits as the Holy Spirit moves us.
(GENTLENESS)
Gentleness is synonymous to meekness. Jesus claimed meekness for himself and significantly coupled it with being “lowly in heart.” His meekness is worthy of our imitation. Meekness of a Christian is displayed by accepting God’s dealings with us as good without any resistance. This is a display of lowliness before God and humility before men.
If our efforts of goodness are met with coldness, go unappreciated, are mis-understood, are repaid with cruelty, or arrogance, I pray to God that He help keep me company, and encourage me by helping me remember Jesus fruits of love were met with the same attitude. He went through more than I can ever imagine. He was captured, questioned, tried, convicted, beaten, bruised, nailed to the cross, and suffered death.
Praise God for Jesus resurrection!
Member ministries should beyond the shadow of doubt partner with our WELS Pastor’s (sic) and congregations. I constantly hear even today, “I don’t where CEO ministries is going to fit, or if it will at our church.” All my life of 42 years I’ve heard go out and preach to all nations, sang hymns like “Stand up for Jesus,” and “Here am I send me.” Now that God has dusted me off, cleaned me up through sanctification, my efforts have been met with scowl faces, and pastoral resistance for past seven years.
Praise God for showering me with the same underserved Grace He expects me to use by remaining faithfully patient.
Christ’s Love, our calling?
Isn’t everyone called?
God Bless
Brian Arthur Lampe
CEO-ministries.org
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Carl Graf
Greetings all,
I have been a WELS Lutheran through my entire half century of life. I have two uncles who were WELS ministers, a cousin-in-law who is a WLES minister and two cousins who teach Christian day school. My father served on the WELS Synod Finance committee for almost 25 years. I myself was a signature away from attending seminary myself, when my youngest son was born with Down Syndrome and the Lord told me that he had other plans for my discipleship and put me on a new path.
I'm relatively new to this group. If I may humbly comment on a word that was recently used. That word is "WELS-ify". Hearing that word and further discussions regarding being "too close to ELCA" and others who don't share our fellowship, made me feel a little unsettled, almost embarrassed, knowing that there very likely are members of the ELCA silently listening to our discussions just as I was until now.
While it is very important to be true to what the Word teaches, I also believe that we must ask God to help us guard against an arrogance which pushes others away, rather than living a Christlike life where others are drawn to us and want to have what we have. People who call themselves WELS lutherans are not the only people that will go to heaven, Heaven will be filled with Baptist, Catholics, Methodists, and others who have in their hearts accepted Jesus as their savior. In fact considering WELS short existence on this little planet, we will very likely be a very small minority once we get there. I always try to remind others in my own church when the discussion sways to talking about those "other" churches, that Jesus wasn't a WELS luthern, neither was Abraham, Noah, Moses... etc...
If Jesus were alive today he wouldn't be only in a listserve with WELS lutherans, but groups for pedophiles, homosexuals, and other groups whom appear to us as resisting God's love more than others.
Finally, I want to humbly remind us all that when we push others way, we judge them, and God was pretty clear about who is qualified to do the judging. With that said, I agree that there are probably individuals who are members of the ELCA in this group and I would invite them to share their thoughts, so we can find our similarities and grow towards the Truth from that point.
Think about it. A member of an ELCA church in this listserve. If that isn't a God given opportunity to share His Truth, then I don't know what is. :)
Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts.
Carl
On 11/12/2010 10:56 AM, Matthew Krenke wrote:
Thanks Chris, I too agree with everything you wrote.
My concern is that if this is being used to advertise or promote a gathering within our fellowship (and I know some of the history was explained in earlier postings), a person could easily do what I did, Google "Lutheran Men in Mission," and go striaght (sic) to an ELCA site. There are plenty of people not of our fellowship on this list serve, and I don't take it lightly when we are tied too closely to ELCA, unless they one day get their house in order. Even if it weren't tied to ELCA, I would much have preferred seeing a vignette of someone who explained how he was taken back to the Word of God, and encouraged to examine his relationship with the Lord, and lifted up by the message of forgiveness in Christ. This may very well be what happens at this event.. then say that. Then we're giving testimony to our value of and trust in God's word.
Please forgive me if my original posting seemed to harsh,no offense was intended.
- Matt
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
From: marksalzwedel@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:15:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
>we can certainly do better by adding the word of God and how it strengthens faith.
I think this is the crux of the issue - do we view sanctification as our work, with God's Word "added" in as an ingredient - or is it solely the work of God's Word? The problem with most of these Evangelical-style programs is not that they explicitly espouse false doctrines (those are easy to fix and "WELS-ify"), but that they are founded on assumptions that undermine the efficacy of Scripture/Means of Grace.
That said, I sometimes come down on either side of these kinds of debates, and I haven't had time to investigate the particulars of what is being discussed here - just making a general observation.
- Mark
From: Christopher Hoppe
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 12, 2010 9:58:00 AM
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
I agree with everything Matt said, but I also think we need to be careful we don't become too critical of other ministries, so as not to extinguish the fire that the Holy Spirit has started in the hearts of others. We know the ELCA has gotten too social at times and have put activity above the word and I don't agree with that either. Keep it Christ centered and let the word ignite your faith!
The video is usually a way to get people in the door, a teaser per se. It would certainly be better that they say that it's God's Word that is the source of all our strength, we as pastors know that, and I hope and pray that it's there! Getting together with like minded men is certainly something that can bolster faith as we share experiences in life and how we can tackle real life issues with God's help and the help of fellow brothers in the faith. A support system is not necessarily bad - as God encourages us to carry each other's burdens and build each other up.
There are many men out there who are not living their faith, but are running away from it. How can we get to men where they are? How can we reach out to them to help them speak their faith and live in the calling they have received? It it's through a venue like this -- then praise God from whom all blessings flow! Let's not get too critical or jump to conclusions.
And if it's a WELS member getting it going - we should take their words and actions in the kindest possible way and trust that they are Christ centered. I am encouraged as a pastor to teach my people to go out with their faith and share it, but I put a yoke around their necks and tell them what they can and cannot do, and sometimes we end up choking out the faith the Holy Spirit has put there. Let's encourage.... let's dig into the word... and let's pray that God would open doors for us to reach out with the love of Christ! The video was just a template and idea for us to put into action in our midst, we can certainly do better by adding the word of God and how it strengthens faith.
Chris Hoppe
--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Matthew Krenke
From: Matthew Krenke
Subject: RE: [church_and_change] Men's Ministry
To: church_and_change@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 9:34 AM
I watched the video. I learned that real men wear pink. I learned that if you go to this "One Year to Live" program you might be moved to take part in some social gospel enterprise (that's what the ministries mentioned sounded like). I heard lots of talk about how they grew in their faith. I don't quite know how this video was to give me proof of this internal, spiritual growth, but what I did see had no mention of sin and grace, of which increasing your understanding is the only way to grow in faith. I heard an appeal to financially support a ministry I don't feel I could. I understand the intent, that as Christian men we need our brothers to rely on, and I commend its intent. I recommend getting into the Word and being strengthened, in the Bible studies and activities that are probably already going on in your own congregation. What do we do with this great wonderful truth? We share it. We don't need to huddle together with like-minded brothers to do that.
Pastor Matt Krenke - Zion Lutheran , Valentine, Nebraska
http://www.youtube.com/user/LutheranMenInMission#p/a/u/1/JCJzH5RbvJU
--
Pastor Fred Guldberg
Star of Bethlehem Lutheran Church
1355 Jonestown Rd
Winston Salem, NC 27103
336-705-1523
