Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Advanced Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 509 Registered: 1-2002 |
Joe, it is there, but Brett gets confused when we speak of Christ being guilty by imputation. We are guilty by nature; Christ is innocent by nature; Christ is guilty by imputation; we are innocent by imputation. I guess the poor man has a spinning head. | ||
     Dave Schumacher (Lex) Advanced Member Username: Lex Post Number: 800 Registered: 6-2003 |
I think that a lot of folks get a "spinning head" when they do not take the Scriptures as they are. Until Brett understands that Christ was found to be guilty of our sins he will not understand Scripture. There really is no reason to go beyond that with Brett. - When the breaker is tripped, replacing the bulb will not help. | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 172 Registered: 1-2008 |
Dave, please step back to my post today at 10:15am and prove the point you are promoting - that Christ was guilty of the whole world's sins and that Christ was forgiven. Please use Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions to anchor your contention. Pastor Holzer asks, "I’m puzzled Mr. Meyer, but what part of, “the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the WORLD,” is not consistent with objective justification?" It doesn't mean what the doctrine of OJ states - that God has absolved the entire world of unbelievers of their sin, declared them justified and righteous. What it means is that the iniquity of the world was placed on Christ and He paid the all sufficient penalty for them. Did the unbelieving world's sins really get taken away such that God has absolved them of all sin? Scripture teaches that contrary to UOJ the unbelieving world will die in their sins because they do not believe in Christ. John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Clearly the unbelieving world's sins were not taken away since they will die in them through unbelief. And here too, Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. No God did not take away the unbelieving world's sins. The Christian Book of Concord: 86] But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ’s sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy. Accordingly, Scripture testifies that by faith we are accounted righteous, Rom. 3:26.We, therefore, will add testimonies which clearly declare that faith is that very righteousness by which we are accounted righteous before God, namely, not because it is a work that is in itself worthy, but because it receives the promise by which God has promised that for Christ’s sake He wishes to be propitious to those believing in Him… http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php Contrary to UOJ which teaches Christ has Mediated on the cross the wrath of God over the unbelieving world’s sins and that God is now propitious to the whole unbelieving world. God is propitious to those believing in Christ. Not those who reject Christ and remain in unbelief. Thanks for your question. In Christ, Brett Meyer | ||
| Dave Schumacher (Lex) Advanced Member Username: Lex Post Number: 801 Registered: 6-2003 |
Brett, To avoid wrangling with you about me saying that Christ committed sin, please reference Pr. Boisclair's statement: "Of course, Christ wasn't a sinner intrinsically or as a perpetrator of sin, and those who accuse us of saying so are liars. Christ was MADE SIN by the imputation of all sins to Him (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21 and Isaiah 53:6)." I know it seems a subtle distinction, but Scripture makes this very distinction. It's an important one. I said: "Christ was found to be guilty of all our sins.: and "Christ was forgiven of all our sins". If I can prove that the first statement is true, then it should be self-evident that the second is true (although the Scriptures attest to both also). To prove the first; if Pr. Boisclair's scripture ref. is not good enough (which it most certainly is), just listen to Jesus Himself: "My God, my God, why hath Thou forsaken me?" If God had forsaken Christ, what does that mean other than Christ had been condemned? If Christ was not found to be guilty of sin, how could God have condemned Him? God does not condemn a righteous person. Now before you accuse me of being novel in my doctrine, read what Luther said on the subject. "And this is our highest comfort, to clothe and wrap Christ this way in my sins, your sins, and the sins of the entire world, and in this way to behold Him bearing all our sins. When He is beheld this way, He easily removes all the fanatical opinions of our opponents about justification by works. For the papists dream about a kind of faith “formed by love.” Through this they want to remove sins and be justified. This is clearly to unwrap Christ and to unclothe Him from our sins, to make Him innocent, to burden and overwhelm ourselves with our own sins, and to behold them, not in Christ but in ourselves. This is to abolish Christ and make Him useless." "If the sins of the entire world are on that one man, Jesus Christ, then they are not on the world. But if they are not on Him, then they are still on the world. Again, if Christ Himself is made guilty of all the sins that we have all committed, then we are absolved from all sins, not through ourselves or through our own works or merits but through Him. But if He is innocent and does not carry our sins, then we carry them and shall die and be damned in them. “But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.” (1 Cor. 15:57.)". Sorry for the unusually long post. I thank God that you have not abandoned this discussion. | ||
| David Breitenfeld (Dbreitenfeld) Advanced Member Username: Dbreitenfeld Post Number: 850 Registered: 10-2004 |
The reason why the unbelieving world is not justified and sins not forgiven, is because they still remain in their sin, a slave to their master: Satan and sin/flesh, and under God's wrath of condemnation, ie Hell. Whether people believe this or not. (Please note: this is just like UOJ, in the sense, God has already declared people wicked, evil, sinful, full of hate, a slave to Satan, can condemned. Does this apply to those who do not believe (faith)? All people are conceived with Adams's transgression of sin with it's full effect: guilty before God, an enemy towards God and haters of God, and to hell is where we all belong. God's work is to give them faith so that God's work of reconciliation can be implemented. This is where those who reject UOJ are confused. The trespasses of sin is not like the gift of forgiveness of sins. UOJ is God demonstrating his love for his enemies. ".Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.:" Reconciliation 1. To reestablish a close relationship between. 2. To settle or resolve. 3. To bring (oneself) to accept: He finally reconciled himself to the change in management. 4. To make compatible or consistent: Reconciliation is ALL of God's work done through Christ planed before the world. This work is the steps and process to make satisfactory and appease the wrath of God upon all humanity to bring righteousness/justification to all people. God did this on the cross, it is complete: forgiveness of sins for all. Christ was sin for the whole world, all the peoples guilty and punishment for sin was taken by Christ. Christ went to the throne of God to pay for our sins. God accepted it as payment in full. Jesus is found righteous. The righteousness Jesus attained for the whole world is for all of humanity= UOJ. God must now implement His work into all people by giving the people the gift of faith. The gift of faith is a person being born of God. God's work is complete: it is the vicarious atonement. God now gives this to everyone. It is not automatically applied. God has to apply it(vicarious atonement: ie redemption to people to take affect. This is the difference between the gift of God and the trespass of sin. This gift of UOJ is not like the trespass of original sin. Nor can the gift of God's reconciliation: UOJ be compared with the result of one man's sin: original sin. Faith has to believe this to be true. This faith is not found in man, so he still condemned and under the wrath of God. Those who reject UOJ will say, "See everyone is not declared Justified and you can only be justified by faith." These people willfully compare the affects of the trespass: original sin, too the gift of God as the same when Scripture warns us not to do this comparison. By failing to heed this warning leads you into false teachings. Those who reject UOJ will avoid this warning at all cost and not apply it. Where does this lead a person? Roman Catholic: Jesus's work on the cross was not complete for you, you must do works to atone for your sins. This denies UOJ. Mormons: Jesus was a good role model. His atonement was for his own sin, you must shed your own blood. This denies UOJ. Jehovahs Witnesses: Jesus's death did not atone for your sins. He died and is in the ground. You have to do works to gain entry into heaven. Reformed: Jesus died for those who have faith (elected). His blood covers only those who have faith. Universalism: all are just and righteous whether they believe it or not, so when they die they will go to heaven. Without knowing the proper distinction between the gift of God and the result of one man's sin, is like mixing up the proper distinction between: justification and sanctification; works and faith, Law and Gospel, God's work and man's work, God's character and man's character, the Spirit of God and the work of the flesh. etc. | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 173 Registered: 1-2008 |
Rev. Boisclair, you made the following statements in this discussion. I questioned whether you intended to make these statements but didn’t get a response. Tuesday, March 25 6:54pm “However, to deny that God on His own for the sake of Christ has reconciled Himself to the world for the sake of Christ is to deny what the Bible clearly states in 2 Cor. 5:18-21.” Wenesday, March 26 11:07am “One of the worst errors that we have seen in this latest exchange is Mr. Meyer's denial of Christ's redemption by itself reconciling God to the world.” Why exactly do you believe God needed to reconcile Himself to the world in your version of UOJ? God is perfectly righteous and just. The world is by nature completely sinful, lost and condemned. Why was God reconciling himself to the world in your doctrine – where in Scripture is the direction of reconciliation that of God being reconciling Himself to the world as though there is some change in God that was required? Scripture teaches that men require reconciliation with God – a gracious change in men. It may be tied to UOJ’s perversion of Scripture and it’s demand that God can declare something to be true, bestow something, but it doesn’t affect that which He declares or bestow upon that which was His object of bestowal. Scripture teaches the world requires reconciliation with God and not God to be reconciled to the world. UOJ is a whirlwind of contradictions. Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Joe states, “From Brett Meyer's post #168: "The Holy Spirit graciously works faith in those God has called." I'd like a clarification of this. From what I know God has called all men. This sounds at least to me that God chooses who will have faith and who won't. George, Rev. Boisclair, Franz – do you also believe God has called all men? Or is Joe Krohn teaching another version of UOJ? Dave, you provide these quotes that are supposed to prove Christ was guilty of our sins. "And this is our highest comfort, to clothe and wrap Christ this way in my sins, your sins, and the sins of the entire world, and in this way to behold Him bearing all our sins. When He is beheld this way, He easily removes all the fanatical opinions of our opponents about justification by works. For the papists dream about a kind of faith “formed by love.” Through this they want to remove sins and be justified. This is clearly to unwrap Christ and to unclothe Him from our sins, to make Him innocent, to burden and overwhelm ourselves with our own sins, and to behold them, not in Christ but in ourselves. This is to abolish Christ and make Him useless." No guilt here Dave. Christ was wrapped in the sin of the whole world – does not state that Christ, the Righteous One, was guilty of our sins. Still not Scripture proving your contention that Christ was guilty of our sins. "If the sins of the entire world are on that one man, Jesus Christ, then they are not on the world. But if they are not on Him, then they are still on the world. Again, if Christ Himself is made guilty of all the sins that we have all committed, then we are absolved from all sins, not through ourselves or through our own works or merits but through Him. But if He is innocent and does not carry our sins, then we carry them and shall die and be damned in them. “But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.” (1 Cor. 15:57.)". I commit this to poorly chosen words by Luther when he states ‘made guilty of all sins that we have all committed”. In this regard I would liken it to Rev. Boisclair’s contention that it is a reference to the imputation of the whole world’s sins upon Him. Even then Christ is not guilty of any sins, wasn’t justified of any sins He was supposedly guilty of and therefore another tenet of UOJ is destroyed – Christ’s supposed ‘Justification’ is not the ‘Justification’ of those whose sins He bore since Christ as Propitiator is only through faith as Scripture teaches and the BOC confirms. In Christ, Brett Meyer | ||
| Dave Schumacher (Lex) Advanced Member Username: Lex Post Number: 802 Registered: 6-2003 |
Brett, Was Christ condemned for our sins? Christ Himself said He was. "My God, my God, why hath Thou forsaken me?" What say you? Do you "commit" this to poorly chosen words too? | ||
| Dave Schumacher (Lex) Advanced Member Username: Lex Post Number: 803 Registered: 6-2003 |
Brett, If you can't answer that question - if you can't explain what being forsaken by God means - if you can't explain what what Paul meant when he said "Christ, who knew no sin, was made to be sin for us.",then you should not judge Luther's choice of words. | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 174 Registered: 1-2008 |
Dave, yes, Christ was condemned for our sins. This is the definition of paying the penalty for the whole world's sins. Does this quote of Christ teach that Christ was guilty of our sins? No. The iniquity of the whole world was laid upon Christ - that doesn't mean Christ was guilty of the whole world's sins. When you realize that you can't prove your contention simply by asking questions - please provide the Scriptural and Confessional proof that Christ was guilty of the world's sins. | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 175 Registered: 1-2008 |
Dave, do you agree with Joe Krohn's confession of Objective Justification that God has called the whole world? Joe states, “From Brett Meyer's post #168: "The Holy Spirit graciously works faith in those God has called." I'd like a clarification of this. From what I know God has called all men. This sounds at least to me that God chooses who will have faith and who won't. |
