ICHABOD, THE GLORY HAS DEPARTED - explores the Age of Apostasy, predicted in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, to attack Objective Faithless Justification, Church Growth Clowns, and their ringmasters. The antidote to these poisons is trusting the efficacious Word in the Means of Grace. John 16:8. Isaiah 55:8ff. Romans 10. Most readers are WELS, LCMS, ELS, or ELCA. This blog also covers the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Left-wing, National Council of Churches denominations.
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Saturday, March 19, 2016
Sassy's Last Bank Withdrawal at Our Local Branch
Sassy made her last withdrawal from our local Iberia Bank branch.
Every time I made a deposit, she got a dog treat.
If they were slow, she barked her loudest into the speaker. Everyone in the bank jumped. Rather than being upset, they were tickled by her sass.
One lady made such a fuss over her that Sassy normally got three treats.
Rain-barrels for Jackson Rose Gardens ICU
The rain began to fall yesterday, so I felt a strong compulsion to gather some. My backyard barrels were full, but the logistics problem remained. Most roses are in the front, and hauling water is a little retro for me.
Rainwater is the ideal cure for plants, because it contains dissolved nitrogen compounds. Last summer I carried rainwater to struggling roses and they recovered fast.
The challenge in roses is keeping their roots happy. I had a lot of new ones last year, newly planted in the lawn and then mulched. Planting in the lawn, mulching around them - that is a fast way to turn lawn into compost. But there still remains a titanic struggle below, grass rotting, creatures backing away from the heated decomposition, then coming back to feast. They need to be surrounded by a fair amount of of neutral (mulched) territory.
Roses want space. They are soloists, not team players. When leftover roses went into the back garden and shared space with some other plants, they bloomed but did not do well. The care they got resulted in a healthy crop of weeds, which suppressed growth. Those four were moved around the maple tree, which now has two circles of roses, a total of 18 bushes.
So I bought two plastic garbage barrels at Walmart and placed them under the eaves to catch the rain. The wheelbarrow is left out to catch rain for soaking new plants.
Meanwhile, the praying mantis egg cases are on a sunny window sill, waiting for warm and buggy weather so they can hatch. The extra cases were shared with the grandchildren, who now have a place for them at home.
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Giant Allium - garlic family. |
Fall mulching means the cold, soggy weather of early Spring is quite productive. Fall planted bulbs rise first. We had daffodils on Wednesday. Tulips are emerging from the ground. The last round will be gigantic garlic flowers.
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The crepe myrtle bush also responds to pruning, the cuttings left as mulch to feed the soil creatures. |
A layer of leaves on the gardens, under trees and bushes, will rot into the ground in early spring. All winter, we had a pyramid of maple leaves under the pampered crepe myrtle bush (near the mailbox). The shape did not seem to change, though its insulation and dampness was promoting the bottom layer being digested by soil creatures. Now the pyramid of leaves is flattened out completely. Soon most of it will be gone, after feeding the soil and the roots of the bush all winter and spring. The biomass beneath will favor the crepe myrtle all summer.
Chemical gardeners say, "I need NPK on my plants to make them grow. And I have to water them with tapwater, because the chemicals make the plants even thirstier. And I don't want to burn them out with too much fertilizer."
The Creation gardeners respond, "I need to keep the organic material in my yard and on the soil and gardens. The rain and snow will help the soil creatures rot everything into the soil. That will create a biomass, a living collection of little water bottles and usable organic fertilizer to feed my plant roots all summer."
Are four rain-barrels two too many? Tis better to have and not need than to need and not have.
Thanks to all who write and say they like the gardening articles. You can thank ____ from ____, who encouraged me to post about gardening. He laughs about that every time we talk, now that 400 posts are published.
Labels:
Creation Gardening
Friday, March 18, 2016
Billy Graham's Lying Grandson Forced into a New Confession of Adultery.
Let's See If I Have This Right - Price and Tchividjian Overlap, Christ Hold Fast and Higher Things Overlap. HT Is LCMS and UOJ. Price and Tchividjian Love Tattoos.
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Tullian Tchividjian is Billy Graham's lying Prodigal Grandson. |
Willow Creek Church in Winter Springs, Florida, confirmed Thursday that they have fired Tullian Tchvidjian, 43, grandson of evangelical icon Billy Graham, after he revealed a previously unconfessed affair he had with another woman.
"When we heard the disclosures he made just a few days ago, the session acted within hours to end his employment at the church," Willow Creek's Senior Pastor Kevin Labby told The Christian Post in an interview Thursday morning.
"The disclosures that he made involved the fact that he had a previously unconfessed inappropriate relationship with another woman. He didn't share specifics with us. He said the person, that's worth saying … there were no specifics," Labby continued. "The session did not feel that specifics were necessary for our purposes right now in making a decision about whether to keep him on staff. So they've terminated his position but they have not distanced themselves from caring for Tullian and calling him to repentance."
Tchividjian landed a job at Willow Creek Church last September, some two months after he resigned from Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida due to an extramarital affair. During that period he filed for divorce from his now ex-wife, Kim, and was deposed of pastoral credentials by the South Florida Presbytery.
In a statement to The Washington Post last June, Tchividjian said he began his previously confessed affair after he discovered Kim was cheating on him.
"As many of you know, I returned from a trip a few months back and discovered that my wife was having an affair. Heartbroken and devastated, I informed our church leadership and requested a sabbatical to focus exclusively on my marriage and family. As her affair continued, we separated. Sadly and embarrassingly, I subsequently sought comfort in a friend and developed an inappropriate relationship myself," he wrote.
image: http://images.christianpost.com/full/86474/tullian-tchividjian-kim-tchividjian.jpg
image: http://images.christianpost.com/full/86474/tullian-tchividjian-kim-tchividjian.jpg

Tullian Tchividjian (r) and his estranged wife Kim Tchividjian (l) are getting a divorce.
His recent confession, according to Labby, contradicts that narrative. The Willow Creek senior pastor indicates that Tchividjian's newly confessed affair occurred prior to discovering Kim's infidelity.
When asked what prompted Tchividjian's confession, Labby said new rumors, which he is not at liberty to discuss, had come to light. Church elders, he said, were also blindsided by the breach of trust that they had placed in Tchividjian.
"I don't have details on them but it must be pretty strong rumors to prompt a disclosure like that," Labby said.
"The feeling of the elders was that Tullian had a long period of time to share that with the church and for one reason or another he elected not to. I can't really comment on what motivated him to not come out with that, but one thing that led him to come out with the confession was the knowledge that there were rumors swirling in Florida where he was previously ministering," Labby continued.
"The session felt that all that we were trying and attempting to do for Tullian had to be predicated on trust. And we understand confession comes over time, people build relationships, they gradually feel more comfortable. But the session was concerned that this was not shared with them and created a kind of faulty understanding in the situation and therefore compromised how we could minister to him," he added. "He is no longer an employee but our desire to care for him continues. How he avails himself to that is just really his choice but we would love to continue to walk with him."
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchvidjian-billy-graham-willow-creek-church-confesses-to-another-affair-159420/#fzkGDhUXbL2KBdwV.99
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchvidjian-billy-graham-willow-creek-church-confesses-to-another-affair-159420/#m27DtTZPiKerSgUb.99
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Price seems to have inherited the previous Tullian parachurch growth, with plenty of fat cat donors. |
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Tullian is on the far left, Chris Rosebrough next,Price after that.Tullian and Price share a love for tattoos. |
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Tullian Tchividjian fired from Florida church over ‘previously undisclosed failures’
http://www.religionnews.com/2016/03/17/tullian-tchividjian-out-at-church-as-his-ministry-board-members-quit/
Willow Creek Church in Winter Springs, Florida, confirmed Thursday that they have fired Tullian Tchvidjian, 43, grandson of evangelical icon Billy Graham, after he revealed a previously unconfessed affair he had with another woman.
"When we heard the disclosures he made just a few days ago, the session acted within hours to end his employment at the church," Willow Creek's Senior Pastor Kevin Labby told The Christian Post in an interview Thursday morning.
"The disclosures that he made involved the fact that he had a previously unconfessed inappropriate relationship with another woman. He didn't share specifics with us. He said the person, that's worth saying … there were no specifics," Labby continued. "The session did not feel that specifics were necessary for our purposes right now in making a decision about whether to keep him on staff. So they've terminated his position but they have not distanced themselves from caring for Tullian and calling him to repentance."
Tchividjian landed a job at Willow Creek Church last September, some two months after he resigned from Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida due to an extramarital affair. During that period he filed for divorce from his now ex-wife, Kim, and was deposed of pastoral credentials by the South Florida Presbytery.
In a statement to The Washington Post last June, Tchividjian said he began his previously confessed affair after he discovered Kim was cheating on him.
"As many of you know, I returned from a trip a few months back and discovered that my wife was having an affair. Heartbroken and devastated, I informed our church leadership and requested a sabbatical to focus exclusively on my marriage and family. As her affair continued, we separated. Sadly and embarrassingly, I subsequently sought comfort in a friend and developed an inappropriate relationship myself," he wrote.
image: http://images.christianpost.com/full/86474/tullian-tchividjian-kim-tchividjian.jpg
image: http://images.christianpost.com/full/86474/tullian-tchividjian-kim-tchividjian.jpg

Tullian Tchividjian (r) and his estranged wife Kim Tchividjian (l) are getting a divorce.
His recent confession, according to Labby, contradicts that narrative. The Willow Creek senior pastor indicates that Tchividjian's newly confessed affair occurred prior to discovering Kim's infidelity.
When asked what prompted Tchividjian's confession, Labby said new rumors, which he is not at liberty to discuss, had come to light. Church elders, he said, were also blindsided by the breach of trust that they had placed in Tchividjian.
"I don't have details on them but it must be pretty strong rumors to prompt a disclosure like that," Labby said.
"The feeling of the elders was that Tullian had a long period of time to share that with the church and for one reason or another he elected not to. I can't really comment on what motivated him to not come out with that, but one thing that led him to come out with the confession was the knowledge that there were rumors swirling in Florida where he was previously ministering," Labby continued.
"The session felt that all that we were trying and attempting to do for Tullian had to be predicated on trust. And we understand confession comes over time, people build relationships, they gradually feel more comfortable. But the session was concerned that this was not shared with them and created a kind of faulty understanding in the situation and therefore compromised how we could minister to him," he added. "He is no longer an employee but our desire to care for him continues. How he avails himself to that is just really his choice but we would love to continue to walk with him."
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchvidjian-billy-graham-willow-creek-church-confesses-to-another-affair-159420/#fzkGDhUXbL2KBdwV.99
Willow Creek Church in Winter Springs, Florida, confirmed Thursday that they have fired Tullian Tchvidjian, 43, grandson of evangelical icon Billy Graham, after he revealed a previously unconfessed affair he had with another woman.
"When we heard the disclosures he made just a few days ago, the session acted within hours to end his employment at the church," Willow Creek's Senior Pastor Kevin Labby told The Christian Post in an interview Thursday morning.
"The disclosures that he made involved the fact that he had a previously unconfessed inappropriate relationship with another woman. He didn't share specifics with us. He said the person, that's worth saying … there were no specifics," Labby continued. "The session did not feel that specifics were necessary for our purposes right now in making a decision about whether to keep him on staff. So they've terminated his position but they have not distanced themselves from caring for Tullian and calling him to repentance."
Tchividjian landed a job at Willow Creek Church last September, some two months after he resigned from Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida due to an extramarital affair. During that period he filed for divorce from his now ex-wife, Kim, and was deposed of pastoral credentials by the South Florida Presbytery.
In a statement to The Washington Post last June, Tchividjian said he began his previously confessed affair after he discovered Kim was cheating on him.
"As many of you know, I returned from a trip a few months back and discovered that my wife was having an affair. Heartbroken and devastated, I informed our church leadership and requested a sabbatical to focus exclusively on my marriage and family. As her affair continued, we separated. Sadly and embarrassingly, I subsequently sought comfort in a friend and developed an inappropriate relationship myself," he wrote.
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchvidjian-billy-graham-willow-creek-church-confesses-to-another-affair-159420/#fzkGDhUXbL2KBdwV.99
Tchividjian, grandson of evangelist Billy Graham, came forward to church elders Monday with “some previously undisclosed failures in his life,” said Willow Creek Pastor Kevin Labby. Labby later confirmed those “failures” were “an inappropriate relationship” and declined to comment on specifics.
More than half the board of Tchividjian’s ministry, the LIBERATE Network, also resigned this week after they were made aware of the relationship.
“What we were trying to do was all predicated on trust, and the elders felt as though that trust had been compromised,” Labby said Thursday (March 17).
Tchividjian resigned as senior pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., last year after an affair. He since has filed for divorce from his wife.
He joined Willow Creek in September and originally had been given the title of director of ministry development at Willow Creek, which Labby said was “poorly chosen” and a “mistake” on his part. Really, the pastor said, it was a sabbatical “set up to care for him and his family so he could pursue healing and counseling and rest.” Tchividjian had no ministerial role and worked completely behind the scenes at the church, Labby said.
The 43-year-old pastor had attended Willow Creek while in seminary, Labby said. Wednesday was Tchividjian’s last day at the church.
“He’d been going to counseling,” Labby said. “He’d been doing everything we asked of him. It’s really unfortunate.
“The way he responded to the elders’ decision was so good. He showed such contrition and humility. He didn’t push back. I really think it was something that probably sat there for a long time. It’s just hard to bring everything out.”
Those elders also asked the pastor to step down from the board of LIBERATE, which Tchividijan created in 2011, because “they didn’t want to blur the line there,” Labby said. Five board members have resigned, too, including two other board members who are part of Willow Creek, he said.
LIBERATE recently announced it was relaunching as what Labby called a “message”-based ministry, rather than a “messenger”-based ministry, focused around Tchividjian. It is a resource ministry whose mission is “to connect God’s inexhaustible grace to an exhausted world” through multimedia, according to its website.
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George the Lite is president of Higher Things. |
Thursday, March 17, 2016
Reader Asks - How Goes the Publishing at Martin Chemnitz Press?
The last few weeks have been busy and fun. Someone wanted a study, which became Making Disciples: The Error of Modern Pietism. Most orders are for 5 and 10 copies.
The Faith of Jesus: Against the Faithless Lutherans has been sent out in multiples all over the US. This book received a lot of attention in Christian News, but not a word since.
Most of the books have been donated by various people and sent out at the author's price.
This also generated new interest in the books published at Lulu.com, so gifts given have sent these titles to various people -
- Thy Strong Word.
- Liberalism: Its Cause and Cure.
- Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant.
- The Story of Jesus in Pictures - now at Create Space-Amazon-Kindle.
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This is the new cover of Creation Gardening, which is being written now and illustrated by Norma Boeckler. |
Most books at Lulu will be moved to Create Space - Amazon - Kindle.
Labels:
Martin Chemnitz Press
Ripped from the HTML Code of SpenerQuest.
Higher Things, Christ Hold Fast, Fake Pastor Price Connections
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Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 8813 Registered: 5-2001 |
I went to their website and within a minute I ran across theological instruction from a woman and a defrocked former pastor. Pastor Rolf David Preus |
Rev. Robert Fischer (Fischer) Intermediate Member Username: Fischer Post Number: 480 Registered: 12-2004 |
http://www.christholdfast.org/contributors/ There are actually quite a few women represented, and the defrocked former pastor is Chad Bird (his background is no secret). |
Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 3103 Registered: 11-2004 |
"Donavon Riley is a Lutheran pastor, conference speaker, author, Online Content Director for Higher Things, serves on the Board of Directors for Christ Hold Fast, and is co-host of the podcasts 'All The Dirt on Church History,' and 'The Higher Things Simul Cast'. He is pastor of Saint John Lutheran Church in Webster, MN. He is the author of the blogs “The First Premise” and "Gnesio Lutheran." A graduate of Concordia Universities in St. Paul, Minnesota and Portland, Oregon, Pastor Riley received his seminary and post-graduate education at ELCA's Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. He colloquized into the LC-MS from the ELCA in 2008." http://www.christholdfast.org/donavon/ |
Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 3104 Registered: 11-2004 |
"Christ Hold Fast" is part of "1517 the Legacy Project" network. http://info.1517legacy.com/projects/ Are LCMS ministers/churches in fellowship with religious organizations under the "1517 the Legacy Project" umbrella? If yes, what is the nature of that fellowship? | ||
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Bryan Prell (Bryn_conwy) New member Username: Bryn_conwy Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2014 |
Somewhat accidentally ran across this article; the very end has some direct connection to Pastor Riley: http://www.pseudepigraph.us/2016/03/10/daniel-emer y-price-a-wolf-in-christs-pasture/ |
Bryan Prell (Bryn_conwy) New member Username: Bryn_conwy Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2014 |
Somewhat accidentally ran across this article; the very end has some direct connection to Pastor Riley: http://www.pseudepigraph.us/2016/03/10/daniel-emer y-price-a-wolf-in-christs-pasture/ | ||
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 3105 Registered: 11-2004 |
PSEUDEPIGRAPHUS blog: “Alternatively, we could all follow the lead of Higher Things’s online content director, the Rev’d Donavon Riley, and take selfies with as many fake Lutheran pastors as possible. Riley is a contributor at “Christ Hold Fast”, and appeared as a speaker at the February conference. The fact that LCMS pastors have been partnering with Price is distressing, to say the least. These pastors avoid the charge of unionism because events like the “Christ Hold Fast” conference don’t match the LCMS definition of ministry. Yet they certainly match the “radical grace” definition of ministry. This allows these pastors to follow the letter of the LCMS law while still giving every appearance to the non-Lutherans in attendance that they support and condone CHF, its conference, and the unionistic mission of Liberate which it carries on. How curiously legalistic. The mendacity of Donavon Riley and the rest of Price’s enablers in the LCMS and elsewhere needs to be addressed. It will have to wait, though, for some other time.” Daniel Price is a real pastor. He has been called by a congregation of Christians (Of the Power and Primacy of Bishops). Is Daniel Price a real “Lutheran” pastor? No. His church does not confess the Athanasian Creed. His church confesses only the AC of the BOC. LCMS pastors are not bound by the letter of LCMS law. They are bound by the BOC which says, “…we will not make or receive a separate or new confession of our faith…” FC,SD, Comprehensive Summary. [GJ - How rich an irony, with the LQ invented UOJ creed.] Christ Hold Fast makes a separate or new confession: http://www.christholdfast.org/about/. The Christ Hold Fast confession is not the BOC. Pastor Price’s public confession is not the BOC. Rev. Donavon Riley of Higher Things/LCMS is guilty of unionism (FC,SD, X). |
From 2014 - WELS Discussion about Abusing the Call.
I Do Not Participate at All.
As Beckie pointed out, this CRM related issue isn't necessarily the cause of the new call reporting mechanism. Here's a well-documented summary if you haven't heard: https://vdma.wordpress.com/2014/06/11/two-wels-pastors-and-four-meritless-lawsuits/
Thoughts?
- Beckie Grunewald Sherrie what I mean is that if people just sit here and go "that's horrible" and then continue to talk about the details but that's it, it just becomes gossip. When I told my husband about it, he made a note to talk to his circuit about it, because it seems wrong and unsavory. But even as we have public details of the suit filed we dont have public knowledge of what happened between Ski and anyone else as far as counseling. It is conjecture and speculation.
- Bryan Spiff Grefsheim Disgusting, but sadly not surprising. We all fall short, but the district leadership really let their members down. I'll also add that these two "pastors" clearly were absent when they covered 1 Corinthians 6 at the Sem!
- Steve Spencer There's really no need for any conjecture or speculation. The necessary facts, straight from those involved -
FACT: In almost every case of such a suspension for a sexual cause, regardless of the circumstances, the man is out for good.
FACT: In a VERY few cases of this nature, the man at the very least must wait 2 years to even apply for CRM status.
FACT: Then the application must go through the District Presidium AND the ALL the Pastors of that district. They, then have the opportunity to oppose the granting of CRM status.
FACT: ONLY after the two-years wait, and the approval by the District is the man even eligible to be placed on Call Lists for consideration.
FACT: In Ski's case, the district 2nd VP strongly objected, as well as a number of other Pastors, including some CPs.
FACT: In no other case has the two-year rule been waved.
FACT: In no other case has an objection by a VP and other District Pastors been dismissed. These are the facts.
- Now, in this case, it has strenuously been denied by various leaders that there was any "deal" involved, or any "quid pro quo" on anyone's part. I'm certainly willing to accept that. However, as I have pointed out to them, the "appearance of evil" is still quite clear and evident, and enough just cause to re-visit the situation and make public the emails and conversations surrounding the circumstances of the case, especially how it ended with Ski as a Pastor again so soon. If this were the government, or a large business, such communications would be demanded by the press and all those who are concerned for propriety. We're not talking about the sanctity of the "confessional" here, but of how the very public Call process was used in this specific case. Again, there is no speculation about the actual facts. They are what they are. That some leaders are being judged as being less than honest in this case is their own fault, and they hold the remedy - making everything open and above board.
- Christian Schulz ^ Thanks.
I'll add a short question. Are you willing to accept that there wasn't a "deal" because there's no proof or because you personally don't believe there was one? Personally, the only way such a thing could happen like that, after all you correctly mentioned, is if a "deal" took place. And let's talk about the elephant in the room. Ski is majorly into CoWo/CGM. The DP that is now taking care of him is also majorly into CGM. The connections are too obvious. Obviously a couple phone calls were placed after the smoked cleared a little bit and wallah he's all of a sudden above reproach and is magically in a congregation that happens to be into CGM-type worship as well. I digress as I know the accusations of conjecture are coming. But, seriously, the good ol' boy system was at work here and it's too obvious to deny. - Sherrie Rardin I don't think this falls under gossip; at least it does not for me. My husband (a retired WELS pastor) and I have already made an appointment with our pastor to discuss this and two other synod issues that we find disturbing. We fully intend, pending the results of that discussion, to then speak to our DP about our thoughts and concerns. Right now, to me as an adult confirmand, this seems to me to be a case of "good ole boys protecting their own" instead of leading God's sheep. If I am wrong, I want to know it. If not, I want to know that too. I am in the position of deciding to send my youngest child away to residential WELS school. I have to be able to trust that the men (and women) in leadership positions are not looking out for one of their own before my child.
- Bryan Lidtke One thing I find interesting is that Pastor Ski is allowed to be a pastor in any district... except for the one where he formerly served. So he's blameless and above reproach in all but one district?
- Cathy Probst Quite frankly, if the WELS develops the habit of shuttling problem pastors around, then we are no better than the Catholic Church and their priests. And we know what problems they are experiencing now, especially in MN.
- Christian Schulz The WELS is too small and interconnected to ever shake it's "good ole boy" disease. This is the only way the WELS knows how to operate. It all starts at the prep schools. The popular kids at prep will be the future DPs and presidents of the schools, etc. If they like you you'll be accodomated. If you keep your head down you'll be tolerated. And if you speak out you'll be swiftly blacklisted.
- Steve Spencer Clarification: It may be that Ski "resigned" rather that was formally suspended by the DP, I frankly don't remember which. It really doesn't matter, however. Why not? Because this is quite common; i.e. for the leaders to "offer" the man to resign rather than having to be suspended.) The real underlying "cause" remains exactly the same. But sometimes we will see the reason listed officially as "for the good of the ministry," or "for personal reasons." Why these wordings are used has never been made quite clear to me in cases where I have inquired, except that there is sometimes concern for the feelings of the wife and children of the man in question. Again, that is understandable and charitable. As to Christian's question: I am willing to accept that no "deal" was involved because that is exactly and directly what a DP told me following a CoP meeting around that time. He would have no reason to tell me this if it were not true, as he knows full well I could find out from other sources. Of course, it could be that he himself was not told the full story either. Again, that is all beside the point. The appearance of impropriety remains, indeed, it has grown since then. It is incumbent upon those entrusted with leadership in the synod to confront this appearance and make public and proper reassurance to both Pastors and laypeople that there is no substance to it - AND to provide the necessary evidence to support their contention. I think a former President put it this way, "Trust, but verify." No, our leaders are not our enemies. However, in this world, with all the nonsense going on in churches, it is essential that we go far above and beyond what may have been done in the past. That's just the way it is.
- Steve Spencer Final comment before I sign off for the evening. It is good to hear that at least a couple of Pastors are planning to confront their spiritual leaders about this situation. We all need to remember, however, that the point under consideration here; i.e. the Call process in the WELS, and the recent observed change in dealing with CRM status - all of this has been the very private and secret purview of the DPs, and they alone, for many, many decades. Like the "black files" that get passed from DP to DP over the years, this authority is jealously guarded and protected from all prying eyes, and all inquiries. "Why some and not others" with regard to salvation may indeed be "the mother of all heresy," but that same question with regard to Call Lists is "the mother of all power" in the WELS today, and has been for generations. It will not be given up lightly or easily, questions about it will be deflected many times, and answers will be less than satisfying to many. We really cannot and should not expect it to be otherwise. Power over others is the world's greatest, most intoxicating, and most dangerous drug; and it is this same in the Church Militant as it is in the rest of the world. We must be sure of our own motives, and be clear that we are not in this for our own power, or because of jealousy over the authority of the DPs, or even just to stir the pot. Otherwise, we are nothing but "mud-rakes." While none of us are holy and perfect, and even our best motives have the touch of our Old Adam, our purpose must be to uphold honesty, openness, and integrity as much as possible in the visible church, and indeed to protect our church body - and our leaders themselves - from falling into corruption, and so harm the proclamation of the precious Gospel. THAT must be our first and foremost motive. And that's why we need to hold those in power accountable. Sin fin.
- Rachel Giller Forgive me - I have not read all the comments on this thread. I will repeat what I said a couple of months ago when this was brought up (and why I chose to leave the group for awhile because it was like beating a dead horse over and over and over again!!!). To me - this is not an appropriate post. It is gossip and should not even be on here. The DP is aware of the situation. The President of the Synod is aware of the situation. If you have a problem with it, it is not appropriate to be hashing it out on here. No one that is involved is a member of this group to give their side of the story. You may personally know SOME of the facts, but do you know all of them? Were you in the room when things were being discussed???
This article was written way back in June. It was discussed then, and I believe that the thread was deleted because it was not a discussion that was uplifting and it was not helping further His kingdom.
Sorry not very eloquently written, but I don't understand why this topic was brought back up. - Joel Dusek You who don't think this subject should be brought up demonstrate the reason why the WELS bureaucracy is corrupt. If you don't hold your leaders accountable and come up with a perpetual train of excuses, the abuses of authority continue. In this case, you are not sheep of the Good Shepherd or His appointed Pastors, but are simply sheep. Man up!
- Joe Jewell Rachel Giller: We believe this is an appropriate topic for discussion, based on the facts (not gossip--facts) as publicly known. Most of the extensive set of facts that are in the public domain have been put there by the protagonist's own choice (when ...See More
One Response
- on June 16, 2014 at 5:11 pm
Steve Calder
It would be refreshing to see the NWD take a lesson from The Word and demonstrate what He taught us; Repent, ask for forgiveness, and make a change in the behavior so as not to repeat it. As leaders, they should start acting like the one who came to serve us! - Beckie Grunewald Joel, your comments are why I now find this thread distasteful. Not one of us is saying what you imply. We're not holding leaders accountable here. What I see is repeated posts about the "good ole boys" and how that will never change. THAT is gossip. Blogs are nice but they still only represent one side. The facts that we have involve only certain aspects. Making judgments on half the story is not God-pleasing. I find it disheartening that people resort to insulting those among us who are trying to keep this on the right side.
- Rachel Giller Joe - using the excuse that they are facts and public record does not make it ok to continue to hash it out - GOSSIP. We have an established "chain of command". Obviously because this is public knowledge like I said, the DP knows about this, the President of the Synod knows about this. Who are we to judge??? Yes, we know what the court records say, but we DO NOT know what was said in closed doors between these two Pastors and their leaders.
And Joel - I take offense to you saying "In this case, you are not sheep of the Good Shepherd or His appointed Pastors, but are simply sheep." Did not Jesus forgive the tax collectors and prostitutes when they were repentant? If I remember correctly he did. No sin is greater than another, whether it is outward sexual immorality or whether it is an itty bitty sinful thought in the back of your mind that you have never taken action on. It is sinful to slander someone's name - which is happening, because even though we have some of the facts, like Beckie said, "blogs are nice but they still only represent one side". Am I "brushing it under the rug" by not discussing? No, I am leaving it up to MY leaders to handle it. Because I trust them and I have faith in them that they are in their appointed positions, where God wants them doing exactly what they need to do.
Yes, we are all sinful and yes we fail EVERY SINGLE DAY - but ya know what??? WE ARE FORGIVEN!!!!! That is the beauty of it. Christ died on the cross for this specific reason. God knows that we are going to stumble and fall. Thankfully HE is there to pick us back up and set us on our feet again. And we will fall again - and He will continue to pick us back up. Are we suppose to forgive and continue to gossip about it? No. We are suppose to move on. Just as we should be doing now! Have a blessed day. I now get to take my girls to school and go to work! - Sherrie Rardin Steve, the call point might have been a main concern for some. Honestly, it is not for me. The main point for me is that it appears, at least to me right now, to be a case of "do what I say for some and not for others" and not within the letter or the spirit of our own doctrine. That is ONE of the things we intend to speak to our pastor to discuss and get more info. What happened to a pastor should be above reproach in his own actions? That is what my husband was told in school with regard to the office of pastor. I am not saying that they would ever be able to meet it, but as a goal it sure seems a pretty good target at which to aim. Beckie, I understand your point on gossip. Truly I do. However, it does seem to me that, at least on the surface, we have more than half the story here. Whether things are taken out of context in this summary, I intend to give the parties (through my pastor) the chance to share. We know that would not be the first in either the media or a blog. However, I will say on the surface that even in a case with merit ONE person filing charges would be sufficient. FOUR seems pretty ridiculous and excessive and, to me personally, meant to intimidate or bully. Our meeting is tomorrow. I will be happy to report PRIVATELY to anyone who is interested on the results of that meeting. If you want me to let you know, please message me privately.
- Beckie Grunewald On a side note to Rachel, I also believe in forgiveness, but there are still worldly consequences. In the other thread, I believe, it was mentioned that in some cases CRM status should not be given again ever, and I do agree with that.
Sherrie, thanks for that post. Yes, we seem to have more than half the story, but we don't have the whole story. We probably never will have the whole story.
I too trust my leaders, because God has placed them there for a reason. Do I believe they are perfect? Of course not. But I have the ultimate faith in my Lord. - Bryan Spiff Grefsheim Thank God all of our sins are forgiven, especially mine, but also including those of the pastors in question. That, however is a separate issue. Many called workers have been removed from their office for cause and have still been assured of their forgiveness, but also told that they are no longer qualified to serve in the public ministry. Too often the water gets muddied when we talk about forgiveness and the privilege (not the right) to serve as a minster of the Gospel.
I do know what it's like to be forced to stand with a loved one who has been wronged in the church while leadership circles the wagons. It's not fun, it's a lonely place to be, and it's led to many of our people seeking their spiritual leadership elsewhere. Our called workers are held to a higher standard and accountability or more openness in this area would really add to the credibility of our synod for many people.
The words that the Holy Spirit led Paul to write to the church in Corinth come to mind. We are not to settle our disputes in the public courts. These workers decided to do that for whatever reason and in the end, they seemed to land on their feet. I hope the victim and her family were able to do the same. - Joel Dusek Forgiveness requires repentance, and from the public statements and actions of these pastors, they exhibit no repentance. Perhaps, privately, they have, but they should do so publicly as well. Other pastors should be publicly reproving them as well, which is why the blog/Facebook are useful, to call other pastors to action. If that happens and these pastors repent they are forgiven, but are still unqualified for the Ministry.
Otherwise, WELS ends not with a bang but with a whisper. - ---
- Joe Jewell "And maybe that's why I wish the public discussion of Ski would tone down - because in some ways it feeds the beast that wants to dig up dirt on all pastors who resign."
I disagree with that. It's not the DISCUSSION that feeds the beast. It's the simple fact that he got back into ministry at all--and so quickly. People instinctively know that this should not have happened, especially over the objections of so many. Any increase in doubt or eroding of trust in the process is squarely on the shoulders of the two DPs who engineered the "solution" (as well as, of course, on Ski and Glende themselves). - Dan Babinec I can see your point, Joe Jewell. I was more just throwing out my personal thoughts than trying to sway anyone to stop discussing it. Again, there's another thread for that, so maybe I shouldn't have even said anything in that context.
- Joe Jewell To be perfectly honest it's the emphasis on how it "should all be quiet and not discussed" that has made me lose the MOST trust in the process. It can't help but make one thing "wow, if they're hushing this up, what else are they hushing up?"... "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them."
GJ - These innocents should realized that all the members are paying for the abusers, through higher insurance premiums. They not only pay the costs of the settlements, but also the court costs, which were quite high just for the Scott Zerbe case in the Michigan District.
Michigan DP was resentful that he had to check out the abusive history of the pastors as an insurance requirement. He and others like him were the reason why the insurance companies insisted - because the settlements were so expensive.
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Rejection of justification by faith, replacing it with universal absolution without faith, has consequences. |
DP Engelbrecht made it clear that SP Schroeder did make a deal when the SP traveled to the Green Bay area to meet with the congregation and DP.
"As a result, and after consultation with WELS President Mark Schroeder and President Engelbrecht, the pastor made his suspension from ministry more clear by tending a letter of resignation. That was then reported via the weekly call report. Although President Schroeder expressed his approval of the plan that was developed for the pastor by the District Presidium that could lead to possible return to pastoral ministry, he felt that the term “suspension” caused both confusion and questions that could be avoided by a standard “resignation”. The pastor, who thereupon willfully submitted his resignation, has continued to follow the original plan of discipline/restoration developed for him by the Presidium, recognizing it as a beneficial program for his physical, spiritual, and emotional well-being. Since all too often when a called worker in our synod resigns there is no program put in place that helps him or her to be restored spiritually, emotionally, and physically, it is hoped that the program developed by the Presidium in this case might serve as a model for dealing with such situations that arise in our synod in the future." DP Engelbrecth, who was supported by VP Zank, who replaced Deputy Doug.
Here is some information about what was going on - yet supported by Engelbrecht..
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