Church and Change, Members of the Bored

Portrait of the hero as lazy dog.

Pastor Ron Ash Chairman

Jeff Davis Vice Chairman

Sarah Owens Secretary

Barry Spencer

Caleb Cordes

Pastor Bruce Becker

Pastor John Huebner

James Skorzewski

***

GJ - These people are bored of Lutheran doctrine. They find Christ-centered worship, based on the Means of Grace, boring. They evangelize by making fun of liturgical worship as boring.

They have invited Babtist Ed Stetzer to harangue WELS on Becoming Missional.

When Ed Stetzer discussed the Book of Concord on his tedious blog, he made fun of it. He was patronizing in his comments. Birds of a feather do flock together.

What does this genius do all year, besides traveling and talking, and writing about his traveling and talking? Nothing.

A faithful Lutheran pastor in the tiniest Lutheran congregation is more productive than all the Stetzers put together. The faithful pastors sows the Seed of the Word with abandon. He does not bully God into giving him visible results to brag about in his next book. He is busy enough with studying the Word and the Confessions so that he has no time to tell every other denomination about the art--or is it the scam?--of Becoming Missional.

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By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them (Rock and Roll Member JK)

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Church and Change, Members of the Bored":

"A faithful Lutheran pastor in the tiniest Lutheran congregation is more productive than all the Stetzers put together. The faithful pastors sows the Seed of the Word with abandon. He does not bully God into giving him visible results to brag about in his next book. He is busy enough with studying the Word and the Confessions so that he has no time to tell every other denomination about the art--or is it the scam?--of Becoming Missional."........


...or he cruises the internet all day long and publishes a blog full of propaganda filled with the viciousness and venom of a Pharisee hissing like the vipers Jesus so aptly named them.

JK

***

GJ - I must have been too subtle. I suggested that the faithful pastor of the smallest WELS church would be far better speaking at Church and Change than that Babtist Ed Stetzer. What wisdom does a Babtist without a congregation have to offer Lutheran pastors with congregations?

From what I can see, Rock and Roll needs more training in how to PhotoShop another church's logo.

Heroes at Two Locations, Maybe More

Heroes at Wesleyan

Heroes at a church called Bridge.

Graphic from Del Sol Baptist, a series that begin in June, 2007.


This is the image at Doebler's Rock and Roll, a bad PhotoShop of the Wesleyan one above.

St. Mark, Depere. Bad PhotoShop erasing of Hebrews 11 from the Babtist Del Sol Church. Take another workshop from Adobe, please.

From St. Mark, Depere
Heroes! We're all drawn to them. Many of us like to watch them in surround sound and Hi-Def! We admire their decisiveness and their ability to think clearly in the face of adversity. In our own lives, we will experience defining moments when we're called upon to act heroically! How can we make sure that we're up to the task? Let's see what God has to say in this new sermon series entitled "Heroes."

2066 Lawrence Drive, De Pere, WI 54115 920-336-2485

Dorky Dad wrote this about Andy Stanley

Since attending North Point, I'd never heard a questionable sermon from Andy or one that made me wonder where he was coming from until August when he delivered the 4-part "Heroes" series. In a nutshell, Andy made the case that a hero is defined as someone who has 1) clarity -and- 2) an irresistable urge to act. My immediate thoughts in hearing this definition were, "where is this in scripture" and "whose clarity?" In my humble opinion, he gave weak answers to both questions, but I hoped that perhaps in a followup sermon he would comprehensively address both.

Here is the book described at Amazon:

Stanley, pastor of the North Point Community Church ("median age of 30") and author of Like A Rock, has made a ministry out of giving advice to people slightly younger than himself, and in this tepid leadership sermon he distills his wisdom into five core principles. Competence, Courage, Clarity, Coaching and Character, he says, are the keys to influencing future leaders. Stanley's advice-focus on what you do best and delegate the rest, seek out the counsel of coaches, don't let success blind you to what's right and wrong-is very sound, if not much of a departure from any other brand of leadership advice. His precepts are often illustrated with Bible stories about leaders like David (courage), Joshua (clarity) and King Rehoboam (paying heed to elders).

***

GJ - The Church and Change mob is falling down in love with Andy Stanley. One of their bored members (bored with Lutheran doctrine) Ski went to the Drive08 conference to hear Babtist Andy Stanley. There are many sermon series named Heroes to borrow, and we know Parkow/Kelm love to borrow sermons verbatim from non-Lutherans and publish them as their own. A PhotoShopped graphic does not prove anything by itself, but smoke from their burning desire to be non-Lutheran has been spotted before.

Here is the primary problem with the sermon series I have spotted so far. Stanley turns examples from the Bible into his heroic efforts to build a mega-church, so it is really a business lecture. The typical Reformed series on people from the Bible focus on figures of the Bible rather than Christ. The Bible is not a book of moral tales about heroes. The Word of God is exclusively about Christ as The Hero, as Luther wrote more than once.

My suggestion - steal brazenly from Luther. "The closer to Luther, the better the theologian."

PS - Want an exercise in total boredom? Find a video of an Andy Stanley service. I saw a scruffy looking guy in a long-sleeved t-shirt (Superman emblem) talking about something, some young adults acting out something, etc. Andy is channeling Willow Crick. They know their market, "This book. It's all about us."

Austin to Rock and Roll - "We Need Some Damage Control on Your Website!"

Rock and Roll Firewall Engaged. Evidence Gone. Next Question?

I was checking my links when suddenly, Rock and Roll's URL did not work. I noticed that Austin was reading the blog today, at about the same time.

I have no idea if Patterson told Doebler to cover up again, but for now the link to Rock and Roll does not work.

When I reported on Church From Scratch drooling over all the big churches of the Enthusiasts - and non-Christians like Xenos - the CFS website became an autoforwarding link to Rock and Roll.

That is why I copy verbatim from websites and give the links.

Church and Change Summary

Church from Scratch, aka Doebler's Rock and Roll

I needed something to help me fall asleep last night, so I went over the material published on Church and Change.

Church and Change began at WELS' Wisconsin Lutheran College, a school where the homosexual Roman Catholic Archbishop R. Weakland gave a highly publicized speech. The school also invited Martin Marty to speak and kept the engagement, even though the lagomorphs of the Michigan District objected.

Who's Who in Church and Change?

I noticed these concentrations from looking over all the names:

1. Bruce Becker, Perish Services of WELS. This is perhaps the only parachruch organization which overlaps the synod office at the same time.
   
2. Mark Jeske: Many are directly connected with Mark Jeske, Time of Grace, and St. Markus. Some are currently with Jeske's stealth operation. Ski (who adored at Babtist Andy Stanley but shunned Dan Deutschlander) is one of the recent graduates.
   
3. John Parlow: Another frequent flier is Parlow at St. Mark's, Green Bay and Depere. Kelm and Parlow go together like Islam and jihad.
   
4. District VP Patterson. His circle is a combination of family reunion and parish associates: Babtist Ed Stetzer diciples - Matt Doebler, John Stelljes; former vicars Mark Tiefel, Caleb Schoeneck, Andy Mueller et al. Holy Word gets synod money for free vicars - Field Reports: Mission Enhancement. Holy Word – Austin, Texas. Pastor Don Patterson. Holy Word’s Hispanic Ministry Coordinator (Staff Minister) is an example of Mission Enhancement. The idea is to enhance a congregation’s current mission work by adding staff or resources. Holy Word will be resubmitting their request to the DMB on January 16, 2009.
   
5. Grant-writing. Church and Change teaches their diciples how to write grant proposals, to grab offering money from the synod. And who gets to vote on these proposals? Church and Change board members from The Love Shack (Bruce Becker) and the interlocking buddies via District VP Patterson (synod council, Board of Home Missions, Kingdom Workers).

***

GJ - I feel compelled to spell disciple as diciple when discussing the ignorant pulpit-sniffers who pursue Ed Stetzer. Since Stetzer cannot spell discipleship, they would feel more comfortable as diciples.

Babtist Northpoint (Drive08 Conference) looks just like Rock and Roll Church. All the Rock and Roll churches look the same - the stage of a rock concert. How tacky and meretricious can pastors be?

Enthusiasm at Work at Rock and Roll

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Doctrinal Roadblocks to UOJ from the Formula of Co...":

Christ died so that all men could be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. By Grace, through faith we are saved. If that Grace or Righteousness or whatever you want to call it does not exist before our conversion takes place, then where does it come from? It has to be there in the first place so that it is there to believe. We can't believe in something that is not there. It has nothing to do with piety. This kind of thinking skews into such heresy as predestination and once saved always saved and this is not the case.

Look at the thief on the cross with Jesus. He never partook of the means of grace and yet he went to heaven that day. It was Grace by faith alone that saved the thief that day which was given to him by God through Christ's death. Christ died for ALL!!!

JK
[probably Joe Krohn, member of Doebler's Rock and Roll Church, former member of Gunn's stealth church, CrossWalk Laveen, two beehives for Enthusiasts who "hate going to church."]

***

GJ - JK would teach everyone on the Internet about the Bible, climb into heaven and convert the angels, if he could. However, I understand angels love going to church. Read Hebrews.

The thief was saved without the Means of Grace? There you have it, Ichabodians, a man who knows nothing and volunteers to join the teaching office of the Church.

The Word, visible and invisible, is the instrument (means) of God's grace. The visible Word consists of Holy Baptism and Holy Communion. The invisible Word consists of preaching and teaching the Word. Christ comes to us through the Word. His grace comes to us through the Word. The separation of the Holy Spirit from the Word is called Enthusiasm in the Book of Concord. Enthusiasm is repeatedly condemned in the Confessions as the foundation of all error.

Jesus spoke the Word to the thief, who displayed godly sorrow for his sins and faith in the Savior. Faith is necessary for salvation. Baptism is not absolutely necessary, but we should not despise it, as the Enthusiasts do. For example, Rock and Roll hides Holy Communion by having it celebrated before the service: stealth communion at a stealth congregation of the increasingly stealthy Wisconsin sect.

KJV Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh
better things than that of Abel.

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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Enthusiasm at Work at Rock and Roll":

Please stop with the melodramatics. I'm not trying to convert the internet or angels. I'm having enough trouble with you as it is. :)

We were in agreement until you started talking about some kind of separation of the Holy Spirit from the Word, if that were possible. You got that from what I said? Where? How?

You should answer my questions before twisting my words and assuming to know something with your condescension on which you are grossly mis-informed. (CTR) How convenient it is for you on your blog to sidestep the issue and questions put to you by expounding on trivial points that have no bearing on the big picture of the discussion. Shame on you.

Now, please answer the question.

DOES (sic) GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION EXIST BEFORE A PERSON BELIEVES?

A simple yes or no will suffice if that is possible.

JK

***

GJ - Please study your Book of Concord, Joe Krohn, Rock and Roll theologian. Afterwards, read the blog sections on UOJ. No one is justified apart from faith. Atonement, reconciliation, propitiation, redemption (two different Greek words) - all express the truth that Christ died for the sins of the world.

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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Enthusiasm at Work at Rock and Roll":

Hold the phone, Joan!!!!

Baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation? Did I read that correctly? (buzz, buzz...wrong answer)

I surmise that even the thief had a Baptism of the Spirit. Does this not preclude all faith? Is this not necessary?????

Be careful now....God is watching...

***

GJ - I am not sure if this is Joe Krohn or not. If it is, he is really mixed up. If not, this is where the Church and Change diciples are going. Many of them are already there.

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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Enthusiasm at Work at Rock and Roll":

I should have known. I don't think there is a yes or no in your vocabulary. They are dangerous words, no?

I don't trust a book written by men(errant) to tell me what the Bible(inerrant) says or a blog section for that matter.

Jesus many times talks about the 'Water of Life' (His Word) as a washing agent. See Eph. 5:25-27.

Unless we are washed by water (Word) and Spirit we can not enter into eternal life.

Happy Reformation Day!

So where am I going?

JK

The Late B. Obama

Doctrinal Roadblocks to UOJ from the Formula of Concord

So how can anyone say the whole world is declared righteous? (UOJ dogma)
3] 2. Likewise we believe, teach, and confess that the unregenerate will of man is not only turned away from God, but also has become an enemy of God, so that it only has an inclination and desire for that which is evil and contrary to God, as it is written Gen. 8:21: The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Also Rom. 8:7: The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither, indeed, can be. Yea, as little as a dead body can quicken itself to bodily, earthly life, so little can man, who by sin is spiritually dead, raise himself to spiritual life, as it is written Eph. 2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, He hath quickened us together with Christ; 2 Cor. 3:5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything good as of ourselves, but that we are sufficient is of God.

How does one become righteous?
4] 3. God the Holy Ghost, however, does not effect conversion without means, but uses for this purpose the preaching and hearing of God's Word, as it is written Rom. 1:16: The Gospel is the power of God 5] unto salvation to every one that believeth. Also Rom. 10:17: Faith cometh by hearing of the Word of God. And it is God's will that His Word should be heard, and that man's ears should not be closed. Ps. 95:8. With this Word the Holy Ghost is present, and opens hearts, so that they, as Lydia in Acts 16:14, are attentive to it, and are thus converted alone through the grace and power of the Holy Ghost, whose 6] work alone the conversion of man is. For without His grace, and if He do not grant the increase, our willing and running, our planting, sowing, and watering, all are nothing, as Christ says John 15:5: Without Me ye can do nothing. With these brief words He denies to the free will its powers, and ascribes everything to God's grace, in order that no one may boast before God. 1 Cor. 1:29; 2 Cor. 12:5; Jer. 9:23.

UOJ is pure Enthusiasm
13] 6. Also, we reject and condemn the error of the Enthusiasts, who imagine that God without means, without the hearing of God's Word, also without the use of the holy Sacraments, draws men to Himself, and enlightens, justifies, and saves them. (Enthusiasts we call those who expect the heavenly illumination of the Spirit [celestial revelations] without the preaching of God's Word.)

Does this sound like UOJ? Few pastors read or study this, so how can they confess it?
18] 9. Also what Dr. Luther has written, namely, that man's will in his conversion is pure passive, that is, that it does nothing whatever, is to be understood respectu divinae gratiae in accendendis novis motibus, that is, when God's Spirit, through the Word heard or the use of the holy Sacraments, lays hold upon man's will, and works [in man] the new birth and conversion. For when [after] the Holy Ghost has wrought and accomplished this, and man's will has been changed and renewed by His divine power and working alone, then the new will of man is an instrument and organ of God the Holy Ghost, so that he not only accepts grace, but also cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the works which follow.

19] Therefore, before the conversion of man there are only two efficient causes, namely, the Holy Ghost and the Word of God, as the instrument of the Holy Ghost, by which He works conversion. This Word man is [indeed] to hear; however, it is not by his own powers, but only through the grace and working of the Holy Ghost that he can yield faith to it and accept it.

The Word of God is the instrument of conversion.
6] 5. This [predestination of God] is not to be investigated in the secret counsel of God, but to be sought in the Word of God, where it is also revealed.

7] 6. But the Word of God leads us to Christ, who is the Book of Life, in whom all are written and elected that are to be saved in eternity, as it is written Eph. 1:4: He hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world.

8] 7. This Christ calls to Himself all sinners and promises them rest, and He is in earnest [seriously wills] that all men should come to Him and suffer themselves to be helped, to whom He offers Himself in His Word, and wishes them to hear it and not to stop their ears or [neglect and] despise the Word. Moreover, He promises the power and working of the Holy Ghost, and divine assistance for perseverance and eternal salvation [that we may remain steadfast in the faith and attain eternal salvation].

The Laity and Universal Objective Justification

This photo has no connection to the post, but it is funny.

I had a long, enjoyable talk with a layman tonight. He phoned and asked about getting copies of Thy Strong Word. He confirmed what I thought - the pastors are not going to get rid of this false doctrine. He has made many attempts to discuss the topic with Lutheran ministers.

I am hopeful because I see pockets of laity here and there, eager to know the Lutheran Confessions and the Scriptures. They are addressing the cancer of UOJ. The clergy duck and run. The Word will defeat this if the Word is studied and applied.

I stunned him by reading verbatim a statement supporting the Two Jays - objective justification and subjective justification - from a non-Lutheran, Pietistic dogma book. Date: 1866.

Has anyone noticed that all the UOJ catechisms stop at Walther? They may claim others (Lutherans like Calov and Gerhard) taught it before, but they have no sources. The real sources are non-Lutheran, from the 19th century Pietists.

As I mentioned on the phone, the non-Lutheran Protestants of today left this nonsense behind them. The Pietistic Lutherans absorbed it and made it their own, in the name of the Chief Article of the Christian Faith. Apart from the Synodical Conference clergy, few in Christendom believe or teach UOJ today. That by itself is not an argument, but it should make people wonder how a few Midwestern hicks discovered something no one else had ever taught before.

To summarize the Bible, Luther, the Book of Concord, Chemnitz, and others:

1. Christ died for the sins of the world. That is the treasure of the Gospel.
2. The Holy Spirit distributes this treasure through the Word and Sacraments. Otherwise it lies in one heap and is useless, as Luther said.
3. Justification means justification by faith. When people hear the Gospel, they trust the Word and receive this treasure.
4. No one taught otherwise in the Lutheran Church. Walther and the other Pietists adopted UOJ from the Pietists and made it their own distinctive false doctrine. The Wisconsin Synod, ELS, CLCs, and LCR aped Walther. ELDONA is awaiting word from the Archbishop of Constantinople.
5. The Muhlenberg tradition and the Augustana Synod did not teach UOJ. Augustana was Pietistic but rejected the extreme Norwegian views on justification. One Norwegian statement became part of the WELSian Kokomo Statements (if memory serves).
6. All the Lutheran groups have to be seen through the filter of Pietism, because that was the dominating theme of the era they were in, whether it was Muhlenberg's or Walther's or Hoenecke from Halle U.

Finklestein on WELS Church and Change

No joke. The Church and Changers always get even, and then some. One little Word shall fell them.

From Bailing Water:

Freddy said...
Mr. “Seeking Truth, not Hysteria”

Perhaps I am being naive, but I will assume that your post is genuine, and try to honestly answer some of your questions from my perspective.

First, understand that C&C is only the latest version of nearly two decades of Church Growth innovation, that has, over the years, been cynically foisted on WELS Lutherans as the only right way, because it is somehow the only relevant way. Yes, the only relevant way, in spite of the condescending nods they seem to offer in the direction “dying traditionalists” who “irrationally cling” to Confessional and catholic (that's small “c” catholic) practices. As CG methods are overtly non-Lutheran, making a joke out of our claim of catholicity, C&C church growth zealots unapologetically express their intent to carry our church practice away from anything (a) recognizably Lutheran, that (b), being recognizably Lutheran, also functions in a way that uniquely supports our doctrine.

Although the names involved seem to be the same, they are almost irrelevant at this point (apart from their continued appointment to positions of centralized leadership). What many of us have observed, especially those of us in a position to observe trends as we travel across the U.S. for business purposes, is the broad impact of CG on Lutheran Practice today, after decades of toleration. Such impact includes crass rejection of the Western Rite (the “Mass” which the Confessions tell us is not to be abolished), the adoption of openly and unavoidably anthropocentric “contemporary” forms in the Divine Service (in an effort to titillate the weak and the unregenerate, over against “traditional” Lutheran and Christocentric practices that may “bore” them), and practices which overtly despise the Sacraments, hiding the Marks of the Church rather than heralding them, for fear that the unregenerate may take offense! Yes, for fear that they may stumble at the Stumbling Stone! CG ideas have been propagated and absorbed by the weak among us, as they jealously look toward pop-church Evangelicals with a longing for their “relevant” "contemporary" practice. Never mind that today, Evangelicalism is virtually in a state of collapse, and that former standard bearers of CG, like Barna Research, are largely pointing at CG as the cause.

Second, understand that if C&C posted anything provocative or directly suggestive of a challenge to Confessional Lutheranism, the principals of this organization would be officially chastised and/or drummed out of the Synod with little ceremony. They know this. Further, the principals of this organization are not young ideologues. They are well-healed and mostly aged CG advocates who have managed to survive decades of fierce polemic from the likes of Dr. Greg Jackson. They are calloused from experience, and have learned from their mistakes -- they know the magic phrases, and can easily thread the needle of doctrinal rhetoric to avoid direct criticism. Looking to the material they post for evidence of manifest unorthodoxy is a waste of time. The proof in is the field, not so much in the naked words themselves; it is in the manifest and growing results of their influence.

To insist that C&C church-growthers mean well and ought to be interminably tolerated is like saying Phillip Jakob Spener meant well (which he did), and ought to have been tolerated (which he was for awhile, at first). Granting that he insisted he wanted to be orthodox, even granting that he tried to remain so, the impact of his teaching grew far beyond his ability to effectively influence it, and even though his ideas were eventually rejected, and he was separated from the Orthodox Lutherans, he had been tolerated by them for too long. The innovations of practice introduced by Spener, in the end, eviscerated orthodox Confessional Lutheranism and left the world and the Church vulnerable to the attacks of the Enlightenment.

WELS has long been infected with CG. This is acknowledged practically everywhere. But it is not just the small list of congregations which have been completely given-over to the methods of failing Evangelicalism, rather, it's a little here and a little there, practically everywhere. Those of us who travel, see it – it sticks out like a sore thumb. To the extent that these unnecessary and unhealthy CG innovations leach into our practice, these non-Lutheran practices are given unfettered access to preach the non-Lutheran doctrines from which they spring. Yes, that's lex orandi, lex credendi, and yes, these uninformed and ill-advised practices are active spreading false doctrine among us, especially regarding Church and Ministry and the Means of Grace, and are obliterating our Confessionalism, particularly among the laity.

Much has been written on this blog, especially in recent months, on these specific topics. Some of it is good, some, perhaps, not so good. Rather than repeat it all in one place, take a read for yourself, if you haven't already.

Freddy Finkelstein

October 29, 2008 12:14 PM

***

GJ - I do not know who Freddy is. He is right about how calloused these Church and Changers are. They got one of their own (Valleskey)into the Sausage Factory, and promoted him up to president of the school. Wayne Mueller was exposed and eased out off the seminary faculty, but his next stop was the newly-invented head of Perish Services (a big, fat raise after leaving the Factory). Mueller became First VP, got voted out of office, and came back as First VP during the next set of ballots.

Now they have the seminary president Wendland, Frosty Bivens, and Al Sorum as moles. In fact, now it is so bad that a Lutheran would be a mole on that faculty.

Richard Krause was the pastor in Marietta, Ohio when I was in Columbus. He was the conference chairman and the circuit pastor. He was getting his DMin from a union seminary with Larry Olson (DMin, Fuller) as his supervisor. He never mentioned that when we discussed the false doctrine of CG. Krause's defense of Olson's false doctrine was, "He's no false teacher. I drank a lot of beer with him when we were in school." The beer defense in WELS is tough to refute.

Pietism War on LutherQuest (sic)

Find the Gospel on LQ (sic)

The UOJ Stormtroopers having formed a circle and opened fire.

As Luther said, when the Means of Grace are abandoned, all kinds of foul errors rush in to take their place.

Church and Change - Fess Up about Stetzer - And Dicipleship

Church and Change leaders never noticed the spelling error! They are funetic spellers.

We know that Stetzer sealed his contract with Church and Change in late July this year, to be the keynote speaker in November of 2009. See the posted information below.

Church and Change has not told the truth about this. Nothing is posted at this moment.

Bruce Becker, Church and Change board member, has not told the truth about the Kelm call. He kept that a secret from his own synodical leader. In fact, he pointedly disobeyed the advice given by the Synodical President. Now his Church Shrinkage unit (called Perish Services) will load up on costs as the country enters a major recession.

Not all is lost. St Mark's was running in the red. The move will help them a lot.

Parlow, a Church and Change Obi-Wan, says, "Thanks, Bruce, for taking Kelm off my hands."

Halloween - When Babtists Put On Masks And Pretend They Are Lutherans

Daniel Fuller studied in Europe and came back a liberal. Lindsell published this fact 30 years ago.

Daniel Fuller, a key figure in turning Fuller Seminary into a marketing machine, published an essay about how wrong Luther was. His insights are based on wisdom from a professor at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana. I never heard of Taylor either.

Here is the link:

Luther wuz wrong.

That is why the WELS, LCMS, and ELCA leaders love Fuller Seminary. They also imagine they know more than Luther about theology.

Here Is a Good Statement That Applies to the Church Growth, Church and Change Crowd - WELS, LCMS, ELS

Todd Bentley and his estranged wife, their daughter in the background. Perhaps he could become a WELS nursing home administrator. Or mission consultant.

In a statement about Lakeland, these thoughts from a charistmatic/Pentecostal:

1) We, the leaders of the charismatic community, have operated in an extremely low level of discernment. Frankly, we often don’t even try to discern. We assume a person’s credibility based on gifts, charisma,the size of their ministry or church, whether they can prophesy orwork a miracle, etc. (Miracles and signs are intended to validate Godand His message, not the messenger; sometimes they validate the assignment of an individual, but never the person’s character, lifestyle or spiritual maturity.) We leaders in the Church have become no different than the world around us in our standards for measuring success and greatness. This has contributed to the body of Christ giving millions of dollars to undeserving individuals; it has allowed people living in sin to become influential leaders—even to lead movement, allowing them influence all the way to the White House. Through our lack of discernment we built their stages and gave them their platforms. We have been gullible beyond words—gullible leaders producing gullible sheep.

The latest scandal (above), concerning Todd Bently, is described here, at Fresh Fire:

We wish to acknowledge, however, that since our last statement from the Fresh Fire Board of Directors, we have discovered new information revealing that Todd Bentley has entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff. In light of this new information and in consultation with his leaders and advisors, Todd Bentley has agreed to step down from his position on the Board of Directors and to refrain from all public ministry for a season to receive counsel in his personal life.

On behalf of the Fresh Fire leadership and the Board of Directors we wish to apologize to our friends and partners and to the larger body of Christ and to ask for your forgiveness. We are truly sorry for the pain many of you must feel and so regret that in the midst of great revival, the enemy has found a way into our camp. To those who have stood by us, we wish to thank you for what in many cases has been years of support. Thank you for your financial giving towards the vision of this ministry, and thank you especially for your prayers. For those of our partners, friends and supporters who may be struggling with the recent disclosures and finding continued support of this ministry in conflict with either conscience or conviction, we release and bless you with all our hearts and trust that God will redeem in your hearts the good that He has accomplished in your lives through this ministry. It is our sincerest hope and prayer that the Lord bless you and bring you into your fullest destiny in Him.

When this ministry was initially birthed in May of 1998, Todd had but one simple desire in his heart – to see the world come to know Jesus. Now, only 10 years later, Fresh Fire Ministries has grown to become a Resource Center that is literally reaching out to all the corners of the Earth. There have been dozens of associate ministries, scores of interns and hundreds of graduates from the Supernatural Training Center. Over 60 nations have received a combined total of more than five million dollars in humanitarian aid and we have seen well over one million conversions for Jesus Christ.

And so, the question can well be asked... where do we go from here? It is true that we are deeply saddened by these recent events, but it hasn’t shaken our faith in either God or His goodness towards us and with the help of wise and compassionate leaders within the body, we will do everything within our power to see our brother and sister healed and restored.

As a ministry, we can not forsake the vision and heartbeat upon which Todd Bentley founded Fresh Fire Ministries which is simply this:

Matthew 10:7-8
And as you go, Preach, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand” Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. While Todd and Shonnah each go through the necessary steps towards restoration and wholeness, we are compelled, with the resources with which God has entrusted us, to continue to spread God’s love and power all over the world.

There are many noble activities and endeavors in which Fresh Fire Ministries is involved, initiated by Todd, and to which we are still committed. We have the Supernatural Training Centre, our school of ministry, already in it’s fourth full year and with more than 50 students already enrolled we’re believing for an amazing year of biblical instruction, practical application and encounters with the presence of God. Many mature and gifted speakers and associates, graduated interns and teachers filled brim-full with the DNA and fire of this ministry are ready to pour revelation and passion into the hungry hearts of this coming year’s student body.



Bentley could start a Church Growth agency, with his sordid past.

Bentley's board of directors lied about his adultery for him, and he isn't even from the Michigan District of WELS. "The statement released by Fresh Fire Ministries on Tuesday emphasized the separation was not due to infidelity by either spouse."

One man sat up in his coffin and began praising the Bentley ministry. It's true, because I saw it on YouTube. Well, OK, I saw Bently screaming out the story. Ri-cheer, you skeptics:



A little self-promotion from a lady Pentecostal minister is posted here.

This is about Bentley's Emma the Angel. Seriously.

Is Ed Stetzer Lying About the Church and Change Conference?

Stetzer used this painting of Luther on his blog.

A Little Love for the Lutherans?
Monday August 4, 2008 ~ 8 Comments
I like Lutherans.

In one of my first blog posts (about one year ago now), I wrote about my time speaking with their leadership at Concordia University. I talked about what I learned from one of their bishops and how they rebuked me.

I am excited about speaking to the Missouri Synod Lutherans North American Mission Executives in St. Louis in April 2009.

Also, I will be with another tribe of Lutherans in 2009. In this case, I will be with some Wisconsin Synod leaders at a meeting hosted in Milwaukee by a group called WELS Church and Change in November 2009.

(I am sure that someone will tell me the differences along the way, and it may include a famous episode of the T.V. show Cheers, where Woody and his fiancé discover they are from different Lutheran denomination.)

My favorite Cheers / Lutheran exchange:

Woody - "Ask her why she thinks the Book of Concord is not in line with the Scriptures!"
Kelly - "Because it's not."

Woody - "HERETIC !!!"


Good people, those Lutherans.

And, they (the Missouri Synod) have a plan for planting 2000 churches by 2017, the anniversary of something in Europe.

So, I received the email below and answered with some ideas from Planting Missional Churches. However, I think it would be helpful to hear from you on some of the job descriptions you would want for a core team. I will probably use them for an article as well, so be sure to put your name a church if you have any insights.

Here is the email. Please take a look and let's give a little blog help to some Lutherans who love Jesus and want to plant churches.



My name is Dick Evers, and I am part of The 72-Partners on the Road (formerly Harvesters for Christ) a ministry of LCMS World Mission.

It is our understanding that you have considerable expertise in church planting.
The 72 teams provide training to existing congregations to begin, enhance or revitalize their outreach activities. You can check out our website: www.lcms.org/The72. There are about 70 of us, located in various areas of the country.

Our ministry was recently asked by the LCMS to get involved with our congregations who want to sponsor a church plant. We are trying to establish a training program for The 72 teams who will work with the congregation and the church planters. As you will note from the attached "Areas of Training" information which discusses what we do, we believe we can be of real help to the church planting teams and the church planter.

We understand that the congregation is to provide a "core" group (40 members or more) and a launch team to work with the church planter. However, we are not exactly sure of the responsibilities of the core group and the launch team. We want to gear our training to help both groups be better prepared, as well as the church planter. We will be only acting in a "helping equip" role, not doing any supervising.

Can you give me any direction as to how we might find the basic "job descriptions" of the "core" group and the launch team? By knowing more about what the core group and launch team are supposed to do (or what additional help they could be to the church plant with more training), we can modify our existing modules, or create new ones, to help equip them.

Any information or direction you can provide us on how to find the "job descriptions" or any other comments you have that might be helpful to us would be greatly appreciated.

May God continue to bless your ministry,

Dick Evers
The 72-Partners on the Road

***

GJ - Church and Change fans have been trying to deny their 2009 conference is planned, even though it was discussed by the WELS COP and posted as a date on Stetzer's calendar. Thanks to my extensive research, we now have a date when the conference invite was firmed up - August 4, 2008.

Remember that when Church and Change denies the obvious again.

Of course, Missouri is lapping this up, too. As Luther said, when the Means of Grace are ignored, all kinds of foul errors rush in to take their place.

But Wait! There's More!

Board Reader

Thread profile page for " Just committed to speak for the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod in Fall of 2009. 08:02 PM July 26, 2008 from web " on http://twitter.com/edstetzer. This report page is a snippet summary view from a single thread " Just committed to speak for the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod in Fall of 2009. 08:02 PM July 26, 2008 from web ", located on the Message Board at http://twitter.com/edstetzer. This thread profile page shows the thread statistics for: Total Authors, Total Thread Posts, and Thread Activity, which are reported in a table below.

Ed Stetzer May Not Be The Man

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Joe Krohn--Laveen Veteran, Rock and Roll Church Me...":

I vehemently disagree with you, Joe.

Pastor Jackson has the courage to speak for many in WELS. He is merely exposing error - which we are commanded to do in Scripture.
Many of us have pastors that, unfortunately, for whatever reason, are afraid to speak out.

What, exactly, is it that makes your pastor and congregation WANT to be a member of WELS? Normally when people want to be a part of something they do not hide it but happily proclaim it.

I became WELS as an adult. I would have felt deceived if I first learned I was really Lutheran after being a part of a church. That happened to me when I was checking out a "community church" and eventually learned it was really Baptist.

Do you show prospective members your constitution? It surely says you a member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, right? With your adult confirmations do they not take a vow that they accept the LUTHERAN confessions?

When I did not have a church I would have been very hurt if I was lured to a fellowship or ministry or whatever you want to call it under the pretense of caring for my "perceived felt needs" and then had the gospel sprung on me once you felt I was comfortable. I would have fled as far and as fast as I could. I would never do that to a stranger of even someone I loved.

Your congragation and others are driving away the very people you once evangelized.
WELS is sick and has a cancer that is metasticizing and spreading like the tributaries of a river. WELS is a manmade institution. What a blessing that the Word of the Lord stands forever.

Obama To Start Internship - Satire from The Onion - Mentions UOP Online

Joe Krohn--Laveen Veteran, Rock and Roll Church Member--Converts with His Love

Weaned on a lemon, Joe's teeth are on edge.

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Beyond Belief - Is Anyone Literate at Church and C...":

Greg,

I finally got to read your ‘brief’ bio. I should have read it before ever posting. It was a revelation.

I was correct in assuming that you harbor ill feelings toward WELS. I can’t say I blame you. Everyone who has ever been a serious worker in the church has their ‘war stories’. There was a good one in the Bible between Peter and Paul. The difference between them and you however is striking. How we deal with things in life is 1 percent what happens to us and 99 percent how we deal with it. That translates to ATTITUDE.

[GJ - Membership at Rock and Roll has endowed Joe Krohn with mystical, mind-reading powers. He even can discern motivation.]

This blog shows that you have a bad attitude about WELS. It shows that whatever happened, you have not moved on and shown forgiveness. You continue to spew hatred, slander, half truths and a toxicity that is un-Lutheran and un-Christian.

[GJ - Show us the way to a higher truth, a greater love, Joe.]

Whether you want to admit it or not, CTR and CrossWalk are Confessional Lutheran Churches. No where (sic) in the Bible does it say we have to have “Lutheran” in our name. We Baptize and we partake of Lord’s Supper the same way WELS always has and they are NOT ordinances like you are inferring about us. Our style of worship is a little different. There is no prescription in the Bible about style of worship. We still offer the forgiveness of sins; absolution; say the creeds and Lord’s Prayer every Sunday. How we choose to promote it is none of your business. You relinquished your right to complain about us when you quit WELS. (This is like not voting in an election and then complaining who got in to office.)

[GJ - This Fuddle-mentalist argument is not surprising from the Southern Babtist Central District of WELS. Published false doctrine can be publicly reproved and should be publicly admonished. Check the Large Catechism, 8th Commandment. WELS cannot claim to be Lutheran while promoting Church and Change Babtist conferences.]

How is it that you apply your dose of judgment on us because a few people attended a conference (for educational purposes) where there were speakers who were not of our faith and yet it was OK for you to attend and support (direct or indirect tuitions) a liberal ‘Lutheran’ college (for educational purposes); attend and support (direct or indirect tuitions) a divinity school that is part of a bigger school that is supported by global elitists and an agenda that answers to Rome (for educational purposes); attend and support (direct or indirect tuitions) Notre Dame; a Roman Catholic institution (for educational purposes); and now works for a non-denominational Christian institution that promotes the very doctrine that you accuse us of following. You say you are conservative, but somewhere along the line (maybe all the RC indoctrination) I think you got it mixed up with legalism. I would like to know how you ever got into a Lutheran parish in the first place with that kind of education.

[GJ - I would like to see the conferences and associations of Pastor Matt posted on his website. They used to be on his Church From Scratch website. And why does he hide his WELS education and ordination? Ashamed of the Sausage Factory?]

It is extreme attitudes such as yours that have stunted the growth of true Lutheranism.

[GJ - The Church Shrinkage Movement has had a negative effect on its own numbers, which are supposedly the measure of its worth. Spare us, Joe, from your true Lutheranism. As Schmauck said, the farther people get away from the Confessions, the more they claim they are the true Lutherans, as you just did.]

You sir, need to come down from your ivory tower and remove that Ponderosa Pine that grows up along The Rim that is stuck in your eye.

[GJ - I feel the warm glow of love from Rock and Roll Church, Joe. I only hope you are an usher, so your friendliness, wit, and compassion can make the Word effective. That is what your gurus in the Babtist church claim.]

Sincerely Yours,
Joe [Krohn, former CrossWalk Laveen member, current Rock and Roll Church member]

Hate going to church? Rock and Roll understands.

***

Anonymous Supports Joe the Rocker
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Joe Krohn--Laveen Veteran, Rock and Roll Church Me...":

How telling that the Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) failed to even come close to answering Joe's question about his affiliations. The Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) refused to deny those affiliations because then he would be proven a hypocrite, as he himself says that an official denial proves that whatever is being denied is true. So the Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) decided it best to gloss over the issue. And you say the WELS/LCMS/ELCA/ELS cover things up?

[GJ - It's all there in the bio, which is frequently read. For some reason, people who cannot spell or use good English are deeply offended by degrees from accredited schools.]

How telling that the Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) failed to directly respond to the points Joe made. Instead, the Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) continued his baseless bashing of Joe, Christ the Rock, Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, and WELS. The Reverend Jackson (in my best Rush Limbaugh voice) is no different than a politician who evades a question or point of debate because he knows he's wrong, but is too proud to admit it.

I nominate Joe to be considered the "Joe 'the' Plumber" of this putrid blog.

***

GJ - I wonder if Joe is seconding Joe. It's hard to tell without a name. Lutherans without a confession often post without a name. I found out Joe's last name only by accident. What scares them?

At least they have Lutheran materials to read here, something entirely lacking at Church and Change, Rock and Roll Church, and their synod-within-a-synod.

UOJ Fanatics Divided on LutherQuest (sic)

Jack Cardinal Cascione, Cascione Synod


LutherQuest (sic) is enjoying a dust-up over the implications of Universal Objective Justification--forgiveness without faith, without the Word, without the Means of Grace.

Jack Cascione, who calls himself Cardinal, is fighting the denizens of his own creation. I cannot be sure what the key issues are, because the participant are all fairly confused.

The basic UOJ claim is:

Scripture teaches that God has already declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18-21; Rom. 4:25; that therefore not for the sake of their good works, but without the works of the Law, by grace, for Christ's sake, He justifies, that is, accounts as righteous, all those who believe, accept, and rely on, the fact that for Christ's sake their sins are forgiven.

This declaration of righeousness without the Means of Grace is, by definition in the Book of Concord, Enthusiasm and false doctrine. The error is derived from Walther, F. Pieper, and Pietism. Both men came from Pietism and never recovered fully from it.

In the 19th century, supposedly conservative Lutherans quoted Pietists all the time. Walther never criticized Spener by name, either because he honored Spener or because Spener's name was above reproach at that time.

UOJ became more ridiculous over time, but its origins go back to 1850 or so, no earlier. Luther and his followers did not teach UOJ. UOJ is not in the Bible, Luther, the Book of Concord, Chemnitz, Gerhard, or Calov.

The old Synodical Conference (LCMS, WELS, ELS) was weak on the efficacy of the Word, so that one doctrinal error influenced many other areas, such as their strange teaching of Receptionism.

The old Synodical Conference was also comfortable with Reformed theologians known to be conservative. The reason may be their origin in Europe when the Union Church was taking over completely. Yes, I realize the Missourians and Buffalosians were escaping the Union Church, but they took a lot of it with them. Otten and his friend Bischoff are examples of men who quote the Reformed without blushing.

LutherQuest (sic)
Erich Heidenreich, a dentist, made his debut on LQ questioning UOJ. He had many thoughtful posts. He then disappeared and came back retracting everything. He became a UOJ Enthusiast.

Rolf Preus took both sides of the issue, agreeing with justification by faith at one point. He also repented.

Jay Webber has appeared during the discussion to quote Pieper. That is like quoting Al Gore as an authority on man-made global warning.

Luther is never quoted on LutherQuest (sic). That is why I use (sic) after its name each time.

Cascione seems to be bending toward justification by faith, because the others are insisting that everyone in the world enjoys objective imputed righteousness.

UOJ is the doctrinal position of Church and Change. A cursory reading of Valleskey and Bivens will reveal that both Fuller students are ardent UOJ advocates and Church Shrinkers.

Obama Summarized

Round, Round, Get Around, I Get Around

VP Patterson, Southern Babtist Central District, WELS
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post ""This Little Light of Mine - They're Going To Hel...":

District VP Patterson really gets around.........

http://www.areasonforhope.net/index.shtml

***

GJ - Having a free vicar, paid from synod offerings, is a plus when enjoying an active political life.

Beyond Belief - Is Anyone Literate at Church and Change?

I am shaking with laughter. Read why, below.

Someone directed me to another Matt Doebler website. As Ichabodians know by now, he is the Church From Scratch guy. My guess is that he got in trouble for showing what he really liked on Church From Scratch, so now it just directs people to his Rock and Roll Babtist WELS mission.

Nevertheless, here is another website from the same church:

http://web.mac.com/pictureyourblessings/Parent/Home_Base.html

I am in favor of honoring soldiers.

I wonder if anyone can spell at the Rock and Roll Church. Here is one of the main pages:

http://web.mac.com/pictureyourblessings/Parent/The_Arsenol.html

Mrs. Ichabod saw the page across the room and said, "Where's the a in arsenal?"

The original Arsenal was in Venice. The specialized military factory could make a sea-going ship in record time. That made the Republic of Venice a world power for a long time.

Football Evangelism

Pastor Dobberstein. WELS, of course.



Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Church and Change Gimmicks At Christ the Rock:Shh...":

This may fit right in with another WELS congregation:
Men Need Faith (& Football)
Leader: Pastor Dobberstein

Meeting Day(s): Mondays
Meeting Time: 7:30 PM
Men need faith, fellowship, and football! This bible study, for men only, looks at the lives of great men of faith and then enjoys some fellowship and Monday Night Football. This Bible study meets only during the NFL regular season.

http://www.oursaviorsportorange.org/site/bibdisplay.asp?study_id=140001935&sec_id=140002949

***

GJ - Bible is spelled with a small b, but NFL is capitalized. I find that intriguing.

Try This Trick at Home

Start with this URL:

http://www.churchfromscratch.net/

Copy and paste it into your browser.

I will make it easier and link it from the words:

Church From Scratch

There is an automatic re-direct that takes the reader to

Joe's Rock and Roll Babtist-WELS Church:



Meet the Pastor
Pastor Matt Doebler has been our lead pastor at Christ the Rock since the Spring of 2006, when he moved to Round Rock with his wife and three kids: Maddie, Sam, and Caleb. His family is a constant source of support and encouragement to him through their areas of service, their examples, and their witness to the greatness of Jesus.

My Heart: Since I was born outside of Detroit, raised between Chicago and Milwaukee, and descended from generations of Chicago city folk, I have long had a heart for the urban and suburban areas of our country with all of their busyness, deep (often well-hidden) scars, and cultural diversity. I long for people who have heard little, if anything, about Jesus in these places to be transformed by His gospel power so that they can, in turn, take part in Jesus’ redemptive work in the cities.
On my iPod: Nickel Creek; David Crowder Band; U2; Third Day, and a lot of sermons

Favorite Food: Alaskan King Crab Legs

Favorite Movie:“The Empire Strikes Back” (along with all the original (not recent) Star Wars films)

Favorite Vacation Spot: San Antonio is right up at the top

Favorite Books:The Bible and The Lord of the Rings

Favorite Bible Verse: Psalm 73:23-26
23 Yet I am always with you;
you hold me by my right hand.
24 You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will take me into glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but you?
And earth has nothing I desire besides you.
26 My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart
and my portion forever.
NIV

And most anything by Asaph

---

GJ - But you have to look for the WELS part. Like most Church and Change ministers, Matt hides his confessional identity as much as possible. He could be anything, but that's the point.

Joe - Switch to De-Caff

Anonymous [aka Joe Krohn] has left a new comment on your post "Hey Joe from CrossWalk, Laveen, Arizona":

Hi Gregory. Nice to be on a first name basis with you. You must have been hanging out out on the C&C webserve list; or we know some common folks since I lived in PHX. Cool.
[GJ - the Church and Change list stopped or went secretive once people realized how much false doctrine was being peddled. Spelling was another issue, but you probably realize that by now.]

You still haven't answered my question regarding GCU. Since you haven't addressed it, I will assume it is true. That is the legalistic way, right? How do you reconcile badgering your fellow believers over alleged Reformed doctrine, and yet teach for an institution that claims to be "Non-Denominational Christian"? I wonder how GCU would view your anti-reformed sentiments and un-christian behavior?

[GJ - I did answer your false accusation, which is strange coming from a Babtist church affiliated with WELS. I agree with Luther and the Book of Concord. I have academic freedom in both schools. The only badgering being done right now is by Church and Change Quislings.]

Before I sign off for the day, you'll need to do a little more research for me. Where in the Bible does it say that we have to use an organ and an organist to lead worship from page 5 and 15 of TLH? I couldn't find the verse or verses either where it says that guitars and drums are not allowed in worship.

[GJ - Where did I say that? You can do better than a straw man fallacy.]

God Bless your evening.

Joe [Krohn, former CrossWalk Laveen member, current Rock and Roll Church member]

You may do well to review 1 Cor. 13.
[GJ - So I can feel the love from Church and Change, from CrossWalk and Rock and Roll? Why do you think I call 2929 The Love Shack?]

Hey Joe from CrossWalk, Laveen, Arizona

Hi Joe. So you were a member of CrossWalk in Laveen (Phoenix)? And now you are a member of Doebler's Rock and Roll Church?

I suggest you look over the Church From Scratch material that I posted for your convenience. Your pastor is promoting all kinds of Baptist and non-Christian stuff. Sure, the website went down after I exposed it, but the content is preserved. Your pastor has fingerprints all over that website. So does Paul Kelm plus Church and Change.

You are in one wild WELS district. South Central should be called Southern Babtist Central. Who is minding the store down there?

I just heard that ex-SP Gurgel just landed there too. I thought he was still in a secure, undisclosed location. I suggest not giving up his address to any forensic accountants. They might have a lot of questions.

Another Cup of Joe

From
: "Joe Krohn" |

To : church_and_change@yahoogroups.com


Subject : [church_and_change] Recent threads regarding fellowship, evangelism etc...

Date : Thu, Feb 23, 2006 12:55 PM



Dear Redeemed and fellow Brothers and Sisters of the WELS,

This internet, what a blessing...and a curse.

I don't think anyone is talking about changing doctrine. I think we
all agree that there are different ways of doing ministry as long as
it is Biblical and I haven't read anything on these threads that was
un-Biblical. I see alot (sic) of 'iron sharpening iron' as a good friend
of mine likes to say. I think we all agree that in general we can
do a better job as a Synod since our growth has been stagnant. If
we can glean some sucessful (sic) strategies from other sources we
should. We may even convert some of these 'heretics'. But I think
this is the rub. I think some have trouble separating these methods
from their doctrine. Because it is their idea, somehow it is
intertwined with their doctrine. It's kind of like separating the
sin from the sinner. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but it works. Or
taking a secular song and changing the lyrics to make it sacred.
Some folks just can't separate the old relationship of the melody
with the old lyrics even though the new song is God pleasing.
(especially for someone who may never have heard the 'old' song.)
It's just a point of perspective. I hope this helps.

Blessings to you all,

Joe



And here is another one::

Hi Pastor Frey and list,

Our Elders group is reading "Radical Reformission" by Mark
Driscoll. I highly recommend it. Parts of it make me
uncomfortable, but at the same time are convicting. I don't think
it's enough for us to just preach the Gospel in it's (sic) truth and
purity. Please don't misconstrue that statement as it's not pointed
at you. But as a whole, we do need to develope (sic) relationships with
people. Even if it's building the kingdom one soul at a time.
Jesus did so much more while he was here than just orate the good
news. When I was attending adult instruction and got to the part
about living in the world and not of the world, we were told that we
should hang out with fellow believers and stay away from the
unbelievers. Does this not fly in the face of what Jesus modeled
when He was on the Earth? Evangelism is dirty work. I work with a
gay man. If I don't have a relationship with him, how does he see
Jesus?

Blessings to all as we look forward once again to Christ's coming.

Joe

Team Patterson and The Church From Scratch

"How are you?" said one. "How are you?" said the other. "Well!" said the first. "Old Scratch has got his own at last, hey?" - An illustration from Dicken's Christmas Carol.

In case you wonder, the Church From Scratch website link was taken over by Matt Doebler's Rock and Roll WELS Babtist Church. The URL below does not work, but if the links part is removed from the address, the URL redirects to Christ the Rock.

The Wisconsin Synod never stops plagiarizing from Fuller Seminary and Willow Creek. Their illiterate leaders have managed to insert Satan's nickname into another project. Scratch is an English nickname for Satan. And Jesus called Satan The Father of Lies. That is appropriate, coming from the Church Growth Movement.

Church from Scratch is the rib-tickling name of the WELS website.

Whose name is first to appear on the links page? Paul Kelm - he has written a paper on Christian freedom.

Here are some of the links listed:

General Ministry
http://www.wels.net/
The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

http://www.churchandchange.org/
A WELS organization committed to address ministry in contemporary culture. Hosts great conferences and provides ministry ideas on the website.

http://www.crosswalkinlaveen.org/
God is doing some really neat things in the area of small groups, large gatherings, etc, through Crosswalk Lutheran Ministries in Phoenix, AZ.

Messiah Church in Nampa, ID has a neat statement of faith. [GJ - Ichabodians will note that the neat statement of faith was originally written by that anti-CGM pariah, me. But they have tweaked it so that their added words fall harshly on the unwaxed ear. "In an age of materialism, we believe that real treasure comes from our raith in the Savior." Is raith the future pluperfect subjunctive of faith?]

http://www.crossroadschicago.org/aboutus.html
Progressive ministry in the heart of Chicago; also has a great statement of faith.

www.apostlessj.org/Church/MinistriesActivities/ASV.html
Excellent example of a vision for a church plant/daughter congregation.

http://www.marshillchurch.org/
This is Mars Hill Church in Seattle, WA. From a Calvinistic background. The preaching is excellent and very law/gospel oriented, speaking powerfully to the culture around them. Mark Driscoll is the senior pastor

http://www.xenos.org/
This is Xenos Christian Fellowship in Columbus, OH. From an evangelical background. A congregation of thousands made up entirely of house churches. Very good mindset material and studies. Great on leadership/eldership.

***

GJ - I attended a Sunday service at Xenos in Columbus. The minister got in the pulpit and talked about himself for 40 minutes before God or the Scriptures were mentioned. The proper verb is mentioned, because the talk had nothing to do with worship, the Christian faith, God, or anything spiritual. The audience cooed and fluttered during the minister's preening, egomaniacal monologue. Not surprisingly, the minister at Community of Joy (Phoenix) gave the same kind of talk with the same results. Willow Creek had a more somber audience but the same baloney. They all sound alike.

Notice the trend, which is just as prominent in the Church of the Lutheran Confession (sic). Apostate Lutherans covet non-Lutherans so passionately that they become anti-Lutheran in thought, word, and deed.

The authors of this bizarre website have bios that remind me of fingernails scratching a blackboard:

Matt Doebler
Matt has served as a parish pastor in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod for the last eight years. After graduating from Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in 1997, he was called to St. Peter's Evangelical Lutheran Church in Collins, WI where he served for four years. In 2001, he accepted a call to St. Paul's Evangelical Lutheran Church in Wisconsin Rapids, WI. In the spring of 2006, he accepted a call to assist in planting Christ the Rock Church in Round Rock, TX. He is the proud husband of Christine, a Pilates/fitness instructor who uses her contacts in the fitness world to make connections for Jesus. He is also the proud father of three great kids, Madeline, Samuel and Caleb. They are great assets to him in the ministries into which God has placed him. Matt has been trained as an equipper in the Christ Care program from Stephen Ministries. He and Chris have also participated in the Church Planters training from Acts 29 Network.

[GJ - Acts 29 is a unionistic group, which is seen as a threat to Southern Baptists. That makes sense, because WELS is a unionistic sect, known as a threat to Lutheran doctrine.]

Ken Knapp

Ken retired early from the paper/hydro industries to do more ministry. Historically, he's served in most of the offices of a local congregation. His greatest passion is for nurturing life-long discipleship, and thus he logically serves on the WELS Commission on Adult Discipleship (CAD). Ken envisions a church functioning in our culture with the passion and effectiveness of an "Acts 2" church. He is the author of the soon-to-be-released book, A Womb to Tomb Guide for Nurturing Faith in and through the Family through the CAD.

GJ - I can think of better, rhyming names for the newest apostasy book -

1. From Cell to Sell.
2. Have an Itch? - Try Old Scratch!
3. Faith without Belief - The Paul Kelm School of Evangelism.

--

Comments on this topic, from Bailing Water:




Anonymous said...
It's incredible. One day, blog moderation is disabled, another day it is enabled. What a joke. Make up your mind and decide what it's going to be, because it gives the impression that you weed out comments that hurt your opinions.

June 6, 2008 12:00 AM


John said...
Hey mr. anonymous,

Why don't you start your own blog. You can set your own topics and moderation settings.

There are times when I'm out of town and can't moderate comments. There are also topics that bring out comments that are off topic and not necessary. I guess if you don't like what I'm doing don't come back. (moderation on)

June 6, 2008 12:15 AM


Anonymous said...
Yeah you tell him John. If you can't stand the heat stay out of John's kitchen. Wus

June 6, 2008 5:24 AM


Anonymous said...
I agree Go John!!...it is so funny to see these WELS bots get so irritated and defensive when the truth is pointed out.

June 6, 2008 8:51 AM


Comment deleted
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

June 6, 2008 9:13 AM


Anonymous said...
WELS has discovered a new sin - the sin of turning off the comments when out of town. Have you no shame, Bailing Water?

I had to vent a little.

Bespoke.

June 6, 2008 9:20 AM


Anonymous said...
Isn't that what the WELS does best- invent new sins so that Bailing Water can point them out?

WELS bot

June 6, 2008 10:29 AM


Anonymous said...
WELS bot,

How about we focus on the topic at hand.

What do you think of the church growth churches listed and their influence on the WELS?

June 6, 2008 10:47 AM


Anonymous said...
I think it is shameful. And I believe that the only answer is to give a firm and brotherly admonishment founded on scripture to show why these things are destructive. I believe this is what is being done by people who do not use blogs to do so.

WELS bot

June 6, 2008 11:02 AM


Anonymous said...
The WELS cannot err.
These churches are WELS.
These churches cannot err.

Whirr-buzz-click-click,
WELS bot #4738

June 6, 2008 11:13 AM


Anonymous said...
There are two things that bother me. If WELS is a confessional church - then it should confess. To leave out the name Lutheran in a church title is to try to have it both ways. Second, by leaving out the name Lutheran and using the names like:Crosswalk; Willow Creek, Cornerstone ,etc. you are giving a false impression to those twenty-somethings who assume it is a non-denominational church.

June 6, 2008 11:39 AM


Anonymous said...
Please tell me how the WELS allows this WELS pastor to claim support of these heterodox churches?

June 6, 2008 1:03 PM


Anonymous said...
This pastor from scratch goes unchecked because the WELS is steeped in Church growth methods.

June 6, 2008 10:24 PM

Feel the Love - From Doebler's Rock and Roll Church

For some reason, the Church From Scratch website is down, but I quoted it extensively in a previous post. Yes, Doebler was involved.

What's your beef with WELS? I don't see anywhere that you are affiliated with WELS. Aren't there bigger fish to fry in the CG movement? You sound like sour grapes.

[GJ - Why stick to the doctrinal issues when it is so easy to make personal attacks?]

You said: "That applies to private sin, not published false doctrine. Christ the Rock is an Enthusiastic partner of Church and Change. Therefore, the congregation cannot hide behind Matthew 18."

From everything I know of CTR and C&C, that's a little legalistic now isn't it? Especially coming from a staunch Confessional Lutheran as yourself that is employed by a BAPTIST college. Doh!!

[GJ - I see the stumblebums at Church and Change are involved in opposition research, with the expected results. I do not work at any Baptist college. I never have. Both schools where I work are privately held corporations, not church owned at all. I told several WELS clergy that my non-Lutheran students never object to my Luther references and Luther quotations. And yet, that is the most common complaint from WELS and the CLC (sic) - that I quote Luther.]

Who is your WELS friend? I'd like to know what was so sickening at CTR. He should have come forward and brought the offenses before the Eldership instead of confiding in someone who is more intent on tearing down the body instead of building it up.

[GJ - Maybe you could do a marketing survey and find out who objects to the Rock and Roll church. WELS Pastor Mark Freier tried the same thing. He does Hindu and atheist weddings now. Young Church Growther - Old Atheist.]

I must have missed it somewhere. Where is your parish again?

Joe

[GJ - Joe, or whatever your real name is. You did miss it. Glendale, Arizona.]

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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Feel the Love - From Doebler's Rock and Roll Churc...":

If you don't work for GCU, then you should change your profile on your web page here:

http://www.gljackson.com/professional.htm

I knew some people that attended GCU. It was pretty much a Baptist School.

***

GJ - Pretty much it is not a Baptist school. The original school was insolvent after the Baptist Foundation ended up being a Ponzi scheme. Everyone lost 90% of the money invested. I do not know what Grand Canyon lost, but they ended their Baptist affiliation at that point. A businessman stepped in and decided to create a school which was both bricks-and-mortar and online. The school has grown 500% in a few years, so I am busy teaching a variety of courses. The school hopes to go public and issue stock.