McCained from Wikipedia:
I don’t believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many (not all!) circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu or Jewish contexts … rather than resolving the paradox via pronouncements on the eternal destiny of people more convinced by or loyal to other religions than ours, we simply move on … To help Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, and everyone else experience life to the full in the way of Jesus (while learning it better myself), I would gladly become one of them (whoever they are), to whatever degree I can, to embrace them, to join them, to enter into their world without judgment but with saving love as mine has been entered by the Lord (A Generous Orthodoxy, 260, 262, 264).
And....
"Even if we are convinced that all homosexual behavior is always sinful, we still want to treat gay and lesbian people with more dignity, gentleness, and respect than our colleagues do. If we think that there may actually be a legitimate context for some homosexual relationships, we know that the biblical arguments are nuanced and multilayered, and the pastoral ramifications are staggeringly complex. We aren't sure if or where lines are to be drawn, nor do we know how to enforce with fairness whatever lines are drawn."
And...
"Our interpretations reveal less about God or the Bible than they do about ourselves. They reveal what we want to defend, what we want to attack, what we want to ignore, what we're unwilling to question..." (A New Kind of Christian, 50)
Remember Rob Bell, the apostate "evangelist" who rejected Christian doctrine in Love Wins? McLaren defended Rob Bell - and why not? - McLaren teaches the same Universalism while denying he is a Universalist!
More of McLaren's ravings are quoted here.
Sound familiar WELS fans?
The Church Growth Movement, which was centered at Fuller Seminary (training ground for most LCMS, WELS, ELCA, and ELS leaders) has morphed or metastasized into Emergent Church/Becoming Missional.
ELCA pastors probably put up more fuss about Church Growth than the other Lutheran groups put together. They cross-referenced each other, too. They left ELCA in disgust and joined the Church of Rome, which also uses Church Growth methods. Justice! Neuhaus is a prime example of hating Church Growth, saying some good things against it (Ad Fontes Conference, attended by the Ichabods), and joining Rome.
But WELS and Missouri "conservatives" said nothing and did nothing while heavily promoting Church Growth and participating with ELCA in Church Growth projects like the Thrivent Church Membership Initiative.
By emasculating themselves, the "conservative" clergy and laity left the field wide open for the next stage of Church Growth - Emergent Church under such leaders as McLaren, Andy Stanley, and Mark Driscoll.
Emergent Church/Missional Characteristics
- The parish avoids the denominational name and even the word "church" - as in The CORE, CrossWalk, CrossRoads.
- The clergypersons (including women pastors) dress like they are going to change the oil in their jalopy, as if they dug the clothes out of the hamper or the rag bin.
- No liturgy, sound hymns, or creeds in the service.
- The sermon is replaced by a rant - cussing is really cool and edgy.
- Music is loud, ecclesiatical rock.
- Lighting is modeled after rock concert extravaganzas.
- Doctrinal content is marketed as inclusive, but it is really covert Universalism, lacking the Law and making fun of faith (perfect for the UOJ Hive).
- Cell groups are essential, mandated, but sound doctrine is a burden, an obstacle.
- Pulpit views are consistently on the far Left on all social issues - in the name of love.
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| Andy Stanley and Ski - WELS The Core. Ski, Tim Glende, and many other WELS disciples have attended Stanley worship conferences. Gay activist Stanley has been a featured speaker at many Willow Creek conferences: Missouri and WELS are deep into Willow Creek. The Ichabods attended WC to observe and later to retch. John Parlow is a WC disciple and Andy Stanley follower. |
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| Ski posted his account of worship at the Drive conference for many years. I copied most of it into this blog. Here is what Stanley said about his gay outreach: http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/05/mentor-to-ski-glende-parlow-buske-and.html |
Kelmed from Ichabod at this link:
WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW:
WHO WENT THAT YOU MIGHT KNOW?
Pastor Ski - St. Marcus - Milwaukee
Pastor John Parlow - St. Mark - Depere
HOW LONG WERE WE THERE?
WHERE WAS THE CONFERENCE?
FAVORITE PART OF THE CONFERENCE:
FAVORITE BREAK OUT SESSION:
A Healthy Staff Culture
- Jeff Henderson
FAVORITE QUOTE FROM DRIVE ‘08
“Leaders don’t get people, they attract them”
- Andy Stanley
DRIVE ’08 JOURNAL
DRIVE ’08 JOURNAL
Whew! Day 5, it has been a heck of a road trip. Today was the last day. As you can see it was jam packed. Before I get into Day 5... Let me just say this, “We should have sat in traffic to go to the Brown Bridge Campus!” Buske & I were bitter. Remember that I had said John got frustrated sitting the parking lot for 30 minutes? So we went to dinner & called it a night. Well, on Day 5 they showed the video for what happened at Brown Bridge. Sweet cookout, the food looked awesome, games and fellowship outside (without snow or cold, I might add) and then a surprise JEFF FOXWORTHY show. Man, how are they gonna top that next year?
Anyway, Day 5. It is kind of crazy, just when you think it can’t get any better, it does. Well, sort of. In the morning they had Q & As for different groups. I went to one that was about linking adults into small group studies. It was well done, but for me it is difficult because everyone is looking for concrete answers on how to solve their own personal small group issues. Many of the questions didn’t apply for us at St. Marcus. However, the leaders were great and had a ton of info.
My final breakout session was entitled Parental Guidance Required. The leader was Clay Scroggins. He kind of looked like Steve James (he’s a St. Marcus member, Steve that is) but he talked with a Texas drawl. He was high energy. Based on his presentation and his passion for kids, I imagine that he rocked it out with kids. The gist of his session was that what happens in the home has a greater influence on the spiritual life of children than what happens at church. Based on that it becomes imperative that parents & the church partner. Here are the steps that North Point uses:
- 1.Inform Parents - inform them about what is being taught to their children.
- 2.Partner With Parents - invite parents to be in an environment with their children.
- 3.Equip Parents - provide parents with the tools to assist in the spiritual development of their children.
Pretty good points and a really good session.
After that session we broke for lunch. John took off for the airport, so Buske and I were on our own. That might sound a little scary, but it is true.
The final Main Session with Andy Stanley was just phenomenal. We began with awesome worship. Today though, they began with a Christian rapper, Toby Mac. Our school kids would have loved it. I’m not sure that they would have believed that it was church though.
When Andy began his session. He started by saying that he was not going to follow his notes in the Drive ’08 Journal Book. Instead he was going to do something that he called, “Recent Random Thoughts On Church Leadership.” He shared 5 points and 5 takeaways. I think that he was at his absolute best this afternoon. Here are the 5 point & takeaways:
- 1.To reach people no one else is reaching we must do things no one else is doing.
Takeaway - Become preoccupied with those you haven’t reached as opposed to those you keep. This is easier said than done.
Wow, it seems so simple. And yet so hard.
- 2.The next generation product almost never comes from the previous generation.
Takeaway - Be a student not a critic.
What more can be said? How do we approach things? When things are different & involve change are we scared? Do we criticize or do we look to learn and implement?
- 3.What do I believe is impossible to do in my field? But if it could be done it would fundamentally change my business.
Takeaway - Pay attention to the people who are breaking the rules.
Crazy sounding isn’t it? We can fight technology and change, but in the end it will pass us and we will become archaic and irrelevant. Not our Message, but the manner in which we present it. Who would have ever thought texting would be as big as it is? How about multi-site church? Video church? These are all things that have changed how we worship.
- 4.If we got kicked out & the board brought in a new CEO what would they do? Why shouldn’t we walk out the door & then come back in & do it ourselves?
Takeaway - Acknowledge what is NOT working & own up to why you are unwilling to change it.
Some thoughts on this - rarely does the church (in general) get concerned about change until they run out of money. What if we asked some questions before it was too late?
- a.What’s in decline?
- b.Where are we manufacturing energy? In other words pretending something is important. An example would be if I continued to say that Bible Study was important, but never attended. I’m blowing hot air, “manufacturing energy.” I don’t believe that anyone wants to stand behind that or get involved in something like that.
- c.Finally, when are we going to unearth all underlying assumptions? Sometimes, what we assume, is not the reality. Are we willing to dig to find out the truth or are we happy with assuming?
- 5.When your memories exceed your dreams the end is near.
Takeaway - Don’t let success or momentum overshadow your vision. Keep the out front.
How quickly can we be satisfied? How often do we look at things and say, “Well, it’s not great but it is better than such and such church.” Scary, but we sometimes fool ourselves into thinking like this. Some questions to ponder:
- a.What the burden on your heart? (sic, yo)
- b.What breaks your heart?
That was it. After that Andy just ended and prayed for all the people there & for there ministries. As you can see from the pictures above, Buske & I got to get a picture with Andy, pretty cool. He is way down to earth. His wife Sandra was there also and she is just great. We actually got to talk to her a little more than Andy. You also notice John with the North Point member who played Bender in one of their sermon series called “Twisted”. The series was all about how Satan twists God’s Word. Finally, there is a photo of Buske & Todd Fields. I’m a little bitter about that one, but you’ll need to ask me why.
Thanks to everyone who read this while I was gone. Be looking for some cool stuff that we will be implementing at St. Marcus, especially in Sunday Night. Thanks also for all the patience. Writing this thing mostly between 1 AM & 2 AM means that there are probably a ton spelling and grammar mistakes. I can’t wait to see you guys on Sunday. Check out the Picture Page for some added photos from Drive ’08.
I’m out!
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| The CORE, which is only an evening service, has not grown at all in three years or more. |
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| Jeske connects all the dots. He is all about Change and all about Jeske. |
