Not a Photoshop
Saturday, July 23, 2011
Conjoined Twins or Two Headed Monster
Daniel Baker said...
"Considering the theological landscape of the WELS, I think that Intrepid Lutherans has been doing a fantastic job. I support the organization wholeheartedly.
I think it is a bit disingenuous to imagine that the issue of UOJ is the one thing causing the WELS to slide into apostasy, with the other matters being mere symptoms of this root problem. Frankly, the WELS pastors I know personally do not speak of justification in UOJ terms, but they have still fallen prey to the dogmatic and practical ideologies of American Evangelicalism.
Also, I would agree that the quote you reference from Pr. Spencer's sermon is rather sloppy, but I also know that he has said as much himself. Even the best of us slip up every now and again."
"Considering the theological landscape of the WELS, I think that Intrepid Lutherans has been doing a fantastic job. I support the organization wholeheartedly.
I think it is a bit disingenuous to imagine that the issue of UOJ is the one thing causing the WELS to slide into apostasy, with the other matters being mere symptoms of this root problem. Frankly, the WELS pastors I know personally do not speak of justification in UOJ terms, but they have still fallen prey to the dogmatic and practical ideologies of American Evangelicalism.
Also, I would agree that the quote you reference from Pr. Spencer's sermon is rather sloppy, but I also know that he has said as much himself. Even the best of us slip up every now and again."
4 comments:
- Daniel Baker said...
- I would agree that Enthusiasm is perhaps a root cause of UOJ. The over-arching apostasy in the WELS stems from a lack of trust and emphasis on the Means of Grace, particularly the Sacraments, and an undue emphasis on our ability and work in the processes of justification and sanctification. This is manifest in various ways, including the evaporation of the Gospel and the preaching of only Law (I am much more familiar with this than I am with somehow preaching Gospel as Law). I understand that you are familiar with a heretic that promotes the extremist view of UOJ, and in that sense you have another perspective on the matter than I do. But in the heart of the WELS, Milwaukee, I have only heard UOJ promoted one time, and that was very recently and very privately (I can't recall even hearing the doctrine espoused in school!). This is why I am hesitant to assume that UOJ is really the driving heresy in the WELS. Like I said, for you it obviously is a pertinent issue, because of the blasphemer who erroneously excommunicated you. And in that light I encourage you to continually fight against his unbiblical and unconfessional expression of Justification. But I wouldn't make it the driving point of your crusade against the WELS in total, and I certainly wouldn't attack faithful pastors like those at Intrepid Lutherans.
- Daniel Baker said...
- Also, I like your title - it gave me a chuckle. However, I would think of UOJ as one of many slimy tentacles under the head of False Doctrines that threaten the WELS.
- LutherRocks said...
- My only crusade is to be exonerated for standing against false doctrine. Time will tell which side the WELS stands. I have been truthful in all my statements on the blog concerning questionable things. If calling out a mistake is construed as attacking...well this would be the root cause of other problems in WELS. Sometimes you just have to put on man pants. :)
- Daniel Baker said...
- Indeed. As I thought about it more, arguing about the "root cause" is ultimately foolish. In reality, we know what the root cause of the apostasy in the WELS is - our enemy, the devil, who roams around like a roaring lion looking for souls to devour. Thank God that we have the shield of Faith to defend us from the enemy's flaming arrows and the life-giving Spirit Who empowers us to stand firm against his assaults.
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GJ - Some examples of WELS/LCMS/ELS Enthusiasm are: receptionism in Holy Communion, women pastors, Church Growthism, unionism, Puseyism, doctrinal indifference.
Sometimes I think WELS is more hysterical about UOJ, but then I see posts by McCain, Webber, and others.
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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Enthusiasm Is the Two-Headed Calf Called Lutherdo...":
Lito has identified and stated the issue correctly.
Contrary to Daniel's contention the apostasy in the (W)ELS is not simply an undue emphasis on our work in Justification, it is false doctrine being officially taught and confessed from the top to the bottom. Any emphasis on man's work in his justification (works righteousness) is false doctrine and believing that faith is a work of ours ((W)ELS official teaching of UOJ), that we must believe that we're already forgiven, justified and declared righteous by God's divine verdict for God's divine verdict to be true and beneficial is false doctrine and both separate the confessor of such false doctrines from Christ, the forgiveness of sins, justification, salvation and Christ's Church. Daniel's statements soft peddle the hard truth and taints his view of the false central doctrine the (W)ELS Synod teaches, (W)ELS demands every member confess the false doctrine of UOJ if they do not want to be hypocrites in their Synod and churches.
Daniel calls (W)ELS Pastor Patterson a heretic who promotes and extremist view of UOJ. I agree he is a heretic for teaching a false gospel. Your entire synod teaches the same thing he boldly taught and enforced. There's an abundance of (W)ELS essays given and defended, based on (W)ELS official doctrine, teaching the exact thing you call him a heretic for. Although a heretic waring against Christ and His Church he is at least faithful to his Synod and confession. More than can be said for the majority of clergy, elders etc who sit on the fence waiting to see who will win.
UOJ is the official doctrinal confession of the central article by the (W)ELS. Their own teaching shows that it displaces Justification by Faith Alone. This makes the (W)ELS unChristian. Anyone who is faithful to their Synod membership and Synod confession concerning this chief article also rejects Christ and God's way to righteousness, without works, by faith alone. Does anyone need to publicly confess this false doctrine in order for it's acceptance in their heart to have an effect? No. How many rejected this false gospel when DP Buchholz gave his pro UOJ essay - the very doctrine Patterson boldly defended. How many (W)ELSians are publicly contending against the recent excommunications? How many are leaving the (W)ELS since they all excommunicated Rick and Joe? Not to speak of the (W)ELS financing the abortion of babies etc etc.
Daniel, any doctrine which when perverted separates the confessor from Christ is the driving issue behind apostasy and worse, whether you acknowledge it or not.
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LPC has left a new comment on your post "Enthusiasm Is the Two-Headed Calf Called Lutherdo...":
Daniel,
The question I ask from you is that how do you know that they do not support UOJ? If they do reject UOJ which you claim that they do, yet which your Synod supports - in other Synodical statements, then why are they there i.e, still in WELS? What are they? Secret anti-UOJers? If they are still crypto-antiUOJers maybe they are still not fully convinced of the potent poison of UOJ. In short, how do you know they are not playing politics with the issue?
False doctrine has many faces, the devil does not give you a warning, the thief does not make himself known that he is a thief and gives you a warning that he will plunder your home tonight at 2AM. I would say that is a bit naive.
I will however grant that pastors do not have a real handle on the issues of UOJ and when presented at more length as to what it implies, they may step back from it. However, this disconnect may still be lurking somewhere. If JBFA in its purity is not an issue and the main big one for your pastor friends, then I'd say they are numb by something somewhere.
JBFA is not just an important topic along side other topics, I should think it is the main big topic if I were an anti-UOJ pastor in WELS.
LPC
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LPC has left a new comment on your post "Enthusiasm Is the Two-Headed Calf Called Lutherdo...":
Pr. Greg,
...UOJ, but then I see posts by McCain, Webber, and others
These people who have their own groupies, UOJ is a settled matter for them. The case is closed so any one who opens up and challenges UOJ, you get them jumping up and down to an obvious heretic.
Re:Secret anti-UOJers.
I'd say it is now time to stand in the open and sign one's name against an understanding of Justification which is false.
The problem it seems is that it is the Laymen that are more courageous on being anti-UOJ, while the Pastors who should know better are the wussies. Certainly I have not seen them in Ichabod (though perhaps they communicate with you behind the scenes).
LPC
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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Enthusiasm Is the Two-Headed Calf Called Lutherdo...":
Joe is right. The new "normal" is opposed to Christ and His Word and Will.
It doesn't take active participation to engage in the spreading of false doctrine and practice. It simply requires not doing anything at all.
The central teaching of the New Age Religion is that everyone is a god, if they believe it or not, they are all gods. How much more godlike can you be than to dictate, in the practice of UOJ, when God was talking about Objective Justification and when he was talking about Subjective Justification in Scripture. Hoe much more godlike can you be than to dictate God's verdicts and say they have no effect - nay, they aren't true until the individual believes it. How much more godlike than to dictate when God meant the "wider" sense of this Word, He meant the "narrower" sense of this Word. How much more godlike can you be than to dictate the that the new Pastoral office your "Worship committee" just created is restricted to these duties, responsibilities as opposed to Christ's list of responsibilities and requirements of the one Office He created. How much more godlike can you be than to manipulate the removal of a called pastor from his parish; a parish which just voted their approval and confirmed his call as Christ's stead in their church. How much more godlike can you be than to manipulate the Word and right practice to entice, attract and convert men into the church. How much more godlike can you be....well, they're surprising us every day in their vain attempts to be their own little gods.
