Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "More Humor from Joe Krohn (Patterson's Buddy) and ...":
I like your blog, it's very informative and witty.
It seems like the C&C saps creativity and style from it's followers; they always sound so 'hackneyed'.
That metaphor you use, "Church from Scratch"? That pretty much sums up the whole church growth movement.
I would know, I've been in one.
I look forward to your next post.
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GJ - Doebler began a ChurchFromScratch.net website where he lauded all the Church Growth heroes. I looked up the content of his initial website and commented upon it, pointing out that "Old Scratch" is a common nickname for Satan. The old URL switches to the Rock and Roll link. Try it out, where I linked it that way above.
The Rock and Roll Church is a boil on Patterson's backside. He has defended it and promoted it. The Conference of Pussycats met at Patterson's church and found no sin in Doebler shamelessly copying Schwaermer worship and sermons.
After all the money has been spent--$50,000 on a full-time female assistant alone --they have only a handful at their weekly entertainment gatherings.
Doebler thought their salvation depended on a $200,000 grant from the Antioch Foundation - for a worship leader! They still got $20,000. And they have one little web page with a map. They do not even have a title on their home page file, so the browser just announces the browser name. Tim, Joe, Stetzer - help Doebler out.
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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Church From Scratch - Doebler's Metaphor - Not Min...":
Imitation without understanding why something works generally results in failure. C&C is too lazy or ignorant to even grasp this concept. That being said, why would anyone want to follow them?
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GJ - But wait. Bishop Katie went to the Dirt Conference to find out exactly how it works. Oh, I get it. She also went to Granger, two Drives, maybe Catalyst, Story.
I think you are right.
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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Church From Scratch - Doebler's Metaphor - Not Min...":
My LWMS group was hood-winked into giving mission offerings to Doebler's church. Oh the equipment they needed to greatly enrich their services! I sure hope the instruments(sorry, I mean equipment) were in fine working order.
My pastor, and neighboring pastors, were lead to believe that Christ The Rock was "innocently implementing a contemporary service." Not so innocent when you have Patterson the C&Cer leading the way.
"I want my money back!"
disclaimer-Yes, Patterson has a family. Yes, it is Christmas time.
Why is he buddies with Gurgel? Think about it dude! Just think about it! And do not forget the C&C conference and Exponential.
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Church From Scratch - Doebler's Metaphor - Not Min...":
The South Central Babtist district is the red-headed step-child of the Southeastern Wisconsin District. Bishop Glaeske shakes his head as Patterson guides the CG movement. With Gurgle in the fold you'll see Patterson's grant writing increase as the synod debt grows larger.
The above poster is right: Wake UP!
It amazes me how Gurgle ran the confessionals out of the WELS yet the Changers still remain.?
9 comments:
Imitation without understanding why something works generally results in failure. C&C is too lazy or ignorant to even grasp this concept. That being said, why would anyone want to follow them?
Wake up people! By now WELS members should realize that WELS leaders and officials can do no wrong. Everything they decide and do is perfect and right. The outcome is the Will of God.
You have been had.
My LWMS group was hood-winked into giving mission offerings to Doebler's church. Oh the equipment they needed to greatly enrich their services! I sure hope the instruments(sorry, I mean equipment) were in fine working order.
My pastor, and neighboring pastors, were lead to believe that Christ The Rock was "innocently implementing a contemporary service." Not so innocent when you have Patterson the C&Cer leading the way.
"I want my money back!"
disclaimer-Yes, Patterson has a family. Yes, it is Christmas time.
Why is he buddies with Gurgel? Think about it dude! Just think about it! And do not forget the C&C conference and Exponential.
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
The South Central Babtist district is the red-headed step-child of the Southeastern Wisconsin District. Bishop Glaeske shakes his head as Patterson guides the CG movement. With Gurgle in the fold you'll see Patterson's grant writing increase as the synod debt grows larger.
The above poster is right: Wake UP!
It amazes me how Gurgle ran the confessionals out of the WELS yet the Changers still remain.?
ROFL, Bishop Katie didn't even know Old Scratch was a euphemism for Satan? Well, Duh!
How does one graduate college, work in a theologically based vocation and not know that?
Nevermind, I know. They all have their noses in those 'Leadershi_' books and seminars the PDL/WC media organs are pushing.
There is a big case of groupthink bunker mentality with these folks, Old Scratch is a good influence technician.
Too bad C&C'rs don't understand that the Scripture and Luther would liberate them from the PDL/WC/C & C iron cage they have hopelessly put themselves into.
The situation gets more and more dumb. How fast can you say 'Dark Ages'? Next up flagellants and hair shirts. Oh, never mind the LCMS are already doing that here in Chicago; they're morphing from Relevant over to Contemplative right on cue.
From my point of view the WELS has the Animal House, earthy types, which may be an improvement over the insanity over here in the NID. They're all under the same influence of Old Scratch.
Hoist 'em on another petard, Pastor!
cw, Chicago
Here's a new way Fuller Seminary, Pasadena, can make money. To their south 35 minutes in Fullerton, CA, a pastor said that visa applicants who paid him money were students at his Christian "university," but in fact they were in the US for other reasons. Notice how both Fuller and
California Union University provide "drive-by" degrees?
California Pastor Accused of Helping Foreigners Obtain Fraudulent Student Visas
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580995,00.html
Officials say Oh is accused of conspiracy to commit visa fraud for allegedly charging between $600 and $10,000 to help foreigners get visas on the premise they would attend the Christian university he owns in Fullerton.
Fullerton, CA, to Fuller Seminary:
http://maps.google.com/maps?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS291US303&sourceid=chrome&q=Fullerton&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Fullerton,+CA&gl=us&ei=5GcyS-nQJpK8NrOcoYgJ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAsQ8gEwAA
While I would never begin to consider Doctrine, Truth, The Word, and our Eternal Life in Him to be petty issues, it saddens me to see just how petty and muddled many - if not most - of the postings, points, responses and counter-responses are here on Ichabod. I fully agree that many of the topics addressed are serious, and deserve discussion, without the veil of tradition or preconception, but it seems......in poor taste, I guess, to use satire as the backdrop for commentary, as well as the convenient 'out' when things go a little too far. I doubt that I'm in a minority when I say that I would love to see topics broken down into clear, concise explanations, including reference to the doctrinal principle that is in question.
I'm sure there is still a market for the lofty, vaguely referenced discussion that is understood by about 10 lifelong WELS clergy, but maybe those posts could be more clearly identified, so the rest of us can avoid them, and move on to another post, in hope that we can learn something. To this point, all I've learned is that there are far too many egos and entrenched opinions/interpretations.
All that being said, thanks to all for being faithful enough to at least RAISE issues - that's definitely a good start.
God's Blessings to all
Doebler is another fool with a DMin degree.
Anon@1:24, what you are sensing is the frustration most of us share. Certainly there should be another forum that is better structured for the benefit of readers. One does not exist as far as I know, and the WELS Q&A man is a farce to be polite.
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