What would you say to a mother and father whose child died in utero or who died during the process of childbirth? "I'm sorry, that child you loved so much is now suffering in hell for all eternity?" The truth of the matter is that the Bible is silent on the fate of infants who die without baptism so it would be wrong of us to state unequivocally that such a child is in hell. I would say something along the lines of, "We know our God is a loving and forgiving God. He's limited us to using his means of grace in reaching the lost, but he hasn't limited himself. I would hope for a blessed reunion with your child in heaven." Boy, I'm glad you guys aren't pastors!
My wife and I lost our first child to a miscarriage. Your emotional appeal is misguided and misdirected. We do not subject God's Word to our emotions so that we can have some reprieve on this earth. Our emotions must submit to God's Word as the only Light and Life on this earth. Your emotional appeal to the pain and suffering parents feel during the loss of a child is a rejection of Christ, God's Word.
You state, "The truth of the matter is that the Bible is silent on the fate of infants who die without baptism…" What you teach here is in perfect harmony with the beliefs of Margaret Sanger who started Planned Parenthood and advocated rampant murdering of unborn children. She didn't believe that unborn babies were human, or that unborn babies are a part of "all men". Christ declares that all men are born in sin and separated from God, that all are born with original sin with no good in them and all men who die without faith in Christ alone are condemned to hell. Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
You've subjected God's Word, Christ, to your emotions. As sinful as it is to say, "God said…" where He didn't - it's as sinful to say, "God didn't say…" where He did. This is the sin that you commit with your confession. It is God who calls of His perfect will. Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. John 6:63 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
You state, "We know our God is a loving and forgiving God." You fail to teach that God is perfectly just. I'm sympathetic to parents whose unborn children die before they are baptized. Faithful Christians do not curse God and neither do they create new and false doctrines that distribute God's grace in Christ for the forgiveness of sins without God's declared Means of Grace. Faithful Christians will say, "The Lord's will be done!"
You undermine God's Word in order to provide emotional comfort which actually erodes and perverts the only thing that provides a Peace that passes all understanding, God's Word.
You state, He's limited us to using his means of grace in reaching the lost, but he hasn't limited himself." Pastor Joel Lillo, you should be brought up on charges of teaching false doctrine. By this confession you teach enthusiasm where God comes to man outside of the Means of Grace, His Word and Sacraments. Fortunately for you (for now), most laity in the (W)ELS act as though they are saved because of their association with the Synod and not based on their confession of doctrine. Otherwise they would deal swiftly with those who error as you so enthusiastically do.
Pastor Lillo states, "Boy, I'm glad you guys aren't pastors!" And we should rejoice that you are?!?
You should repent of this blasphemy against God's Word. And you will if it is God's will. The Lord's will be done.
Luther (COMFORT FOR WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD A MISCARRIAGE, 1542)
"...because the mother is a believing Christian it is to be hoped that her heartfelt cry and deep longing to bring her child to be baptized will be accepted by God as an effective prayer."
"Who can doubt that those Israelite children who died before they could be circumcised on the eighth day were yet saved by the prayers of their parents in view of the promise that God willed to be their God. God (they say) has not limited his power to the sacraments, but has made a covenant with us through his word."
Thank you for your beautiful Luther quote! I think a lot of the guys on this blog forget that Luther was a man with a great pastor's heart besides being the very best theologian who has ever lived!
Prior to writing my piece, I thought about the question of the fate of people who have never heard.
You said... I'm sorry, that child you loved so much is now suffering in hell for all eternity?"
This is of course a strawman with an emotional appeal.
However, it is equally wrong to state unequivocally too that they are in heaven, for if that is the case, why would you comfort the parents who have lost their child? Their sadness has no merit, in fact they should rejoice that they had a miscarriage, for after all who would not want their child to be not in heaven? IF it is true that babies who died are all in heaven, their parents' sadness is grounded in false feelings. They should be ralied to rejoice and wipe off tears from their eyes, the death of their babies are trivial, is it not? Is it not the case that they are feeling sad for something that in reality they should feel good about?
If pro-life activists unequivocally believe that aborted infants get a free ticket to heaven, they are the cruelest people I can possibly imagine. Why fight to bring a soul into this life of sin and evil when they could spend an eternity in heavenly bliss?
If aborted babies go to heaven, we need to press immediately for wide-spread abortion, especially in third world countries where the Word is not readily spread!
Of course, I am being sarcastic. On the other side of the coin, however, I do not wish to pontificate on the idea that unborn infants spend eternity in hell. That concept is truly base, to the extent that I really don't even want to think about it. Moreover, it would certainly be heartless and cruel to bring up such things in the presence of one who has recently lost an unborn child.
Having said all of that, if one cannot see the danger in this line of thinking, they are an ignoramus. I side with Dr. Luther in this matter, and quote his words from the document There is a God cited:
"Enough has been said about this. Therefore one must leave such situations to God and take comfort in the thought that he surely has heard our unspoken yearning and done all things better than we could have asked."
"Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:12,13).
Yes, sanctification. The more you prayerfully read God's Word and the Confessions, the more you are able to "rightly divide the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15). Use AC IX.3 as a "Gotcha" against an Anabaptist (or a WELS UOJ-er who has fallen into the error of trusting works-righteous Church Growth methods over the Means).
But to the grieving Lutheran parents who have lost their child through miscarriage, show how the power of the Word can work the miracle of faith in the pre-born child's heart. Cite John via Elizabeth through Mary's salutation. Cite Luther who said that Christ was made incarnate in Mary's womb through her ear via the Holy Spirit's seed of the Word spoken by the angel Gabriel. Cite the power of the Word to effect the Real Presence.
Although some may laugh with Sarah at the Lord's effective Word of promise, Lutherans confess with Gabriel when he said to humble Mary, "Nothing is impossible with God."
Here's St. Augustine on the "conceptio per aurem": "God spoke through the angel, and impregnated the Virgin through the ear."
Luther put it this way: "Where does it (the virgin birth) come from? The angel Gabriel brings the word: `Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, etc.' With these words Christ comes not only into her heart, but also into her womb, as she hears, grasps, and believes it. No one can say otherwise, than that the power comes through the Word." (Luther's Works 36:341)
16 comments:
Brett and LPC:
What would you say to a mother and father whose child died in utero or who died during the process of childbirth? "I'm sorry, that child you loved so much is now suffering in hell for all eternity?" The truth of the matter is that the Bible is silent on the fate of infants who die without baptism so it would be wrong of us to state unequivocally that such a child is in hell.
I would say something along the lines of, "We know our God is a loving and forgiving God. He's limited us to using his means of grace in reaching the lost, but he hasn't limited himself. I would hope for a blessed reunion with your child in heaven."
Boy, I'm glad you guys aren't pastors!
My wife and I lost our first child to a miscarriage. Your emotional appeal is misguided and misdirected. We do not subject God's Word to our emotions so that we can have some reprieve on this earth. Our emotions must submit to God's Word as the only Light and Life on this earth. Your emotional appeal to the pain and suffering parents feel during the loss of a child is a rejection of Christ, God's Word.
You state, "The truth of the matter is that the Bible is silent on the fate of infants who die without baptism…"
What you teach here is in perfect harmony with the beliefs of Margaret Sanger who started Planned Parenthood and advocated rampant murdering of unborn children. She didn't believe that unborn babies were human, or that unborn babies are a part of "all men". Christ declares that all men are born in sin and separated from God, that all are born with original sin with no good in them and all men who die without faith in Christ alone are condemned to hell.
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
You've subjected God's Word, Christ, to your emotions. As sinful as it is to say, "God said…" where He didn't - it's as sinful to say, "God didn't say…" where He did. This is the sin that you commit with your confession. It is God who calls of His perfect will.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
John 6:63 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
You state, "We know our God is a loving and forgiving God."
You fail to teach that God is perfectly just. I'm sympathetic to parents whose unborn children die before they are baptized. Faithful Christians do not curse God and neither do they create new and false doctrines that distribute God's grace in Christ for the forgiveness of sins without God's declared Means of Grace. Faithful Christians will say, "The Lord's will be done!"
You undermine God's Word in order to provide emotional comfort which actually erodes and perverts the only thing that provides a Peace that passes all understanding, God's Word.
You state, He's limited us to using his means of grace in reaching the lost, but he hasn't limited himself."
Pastor Joel Lillo, you should be brought up on charges of teaching false doctrine. By this confession you teach enthusiasm where God comes to man outside of the Means of Grace, His Word and Sacraments. Fortunately for you (for now), most laity in the (W)ELS act as though they are saved because of their association with the Synod and not based on their confession of doctrine. Otherwise they would deal swiftly with those who error as you so enthusiastically do.
Pastor Lillo states, "Boy, I'm glad you guys aren't pastors!" And we should rejoice that you are?!?
You should repent of this blasphemy against God's Word. And you will if it is God's will. The Lord's will be done.
Luther (COMFORT FOR WOMEN
WHO HAVE HAD A MISCARRIAGE, 1542)
"...because the mother is a believing Christian it is to be hoped that her heartfelt cry
and deep longing to bring her child to be baptized will be accepted by God as an effective prayer."
"Who can doubt that those Israelite children who died before they could be circumcised on
the eighth day were yet saved by the prayers of their parents in view of the promise that God
willed to be their God. God (they say) has not limited his power to the sacraments, but has made
a covenant with us through his word."
Brett,
I think I would need to see a doctor's report to believe that you have a heart.
There Is a God (whoever you are),
Thank you for your beautiful Luther quote! I think a lot of the guys on this blog forget that Luther was a man with a great pastor's heart besides being the very best theologian who has ever lived!
Pr. Joel.
We have lost twice on a miscarriage.
Prior to writing my piece, I thought about the question of the fate of people who have never heard.
You said...
I'm sorry, that child you loved so much is now suffering in hell for all eternity?"
This is of course a strawman with an emotional appeal.
However, it is equally wrong to state unequivocally too that they are in heaven, for if that is the case, why would you comfort the parents who have lost their child? Their sadness has no merit, in fact they should rejoice that they had a miscarriage, for after all who would not want their child to be not in heaven? IF it is true that babies who died are all in heaven, their parents' sadness is grounded in false feelings. They should be ralied to rejoice and wipe off tears from their eyes, the death of their babies are trivial, is it not? Is it not the case that they are feeling sad for something that in reality they should feel good about?
LPC
If pro-life activists unequivocally believe that aborted infants get a free ticket to heaven, they are the cruelest people I can possibly imagine. Why fight to bring a soul into this life of sin and evil when they could spend an eternity in heavenly bliss?
If aborted babies go to heaven, we need to press immediately for wide-spread abortion, especially in third world countries where the Word is not readily spread!
Of course, I am being sarcastic. On the other side of the coin, however, I do not wish to pontificate on the idea that unborn infants spend eternity in hell. That concept is truly base, to the extent that I really don't even want to think about it. Moreover, it would certainly be heartless and cruel to bring up such things in the presence of one who has recently lost an unborn child.
Having said all of that, if one cannot see the danger in this line of thinking, they are an ignoramus. I side with Dr. Luther in this matter, and quote his words from the document There is a God cited:
"Enough has been said about this. Therefore one must leave such situations to God and take comfort in the thought that he surely has heard our unspoken yearning and done all things better than we could have asked."
Extremely well said, Daniel. You seem to have a pastor's heart.
Daniel.
To say to God - "Thy will be done" is also to throw one's self to the mercy of God. It humbly trusts that God is just and righteous.
In this issue, we know and are told where God's forgiveness is found, in the means of grace.
Anything outside this revelation is speculation, that is the point of my comments; and speculations are not equal to the Word of God.
To teach a speculative idea as if it is God's Word is presumption.
LPC
"...go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'" - Jesus (Matthew 9:13)
"Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:12,13).
Maybe the key is found in sanctification...
LutherRocks,
Yes, sanctification. The more you prayerfully read God's Word and the Confessions, the more you are able to "rightly divide the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15). Use AC IX.3 as a "Gotcha" against an Anabaptist (or a WELS UOJ-er who has fallen into the error of trusting works-righteous Church Growth methods over the Means).
But to the grieving Lutheran parents who have lost their child through miscarriage, show how the power of the Word can work the miracle of faith in the pre-born child's heart. Cite John via Elizabeth through Mary's salutation. Cite Luther who said that Christ was made incarnate in Mary's womb through her ear via the Holy Spirit's seed of the Word spoken by the angel Gabriel. Cite the power of the Word to effect the Real Presence.
Although some may laugh with Sarah at the Lord's effective Word of promise, Lutherans confess with Gabriel when he said to humble Mary, "Nothing is impossible with God."
Cite Luther who said that Christ was made incarnate in Mary's womb through her ear via the Holy Spirit's seed of the Word spoken by the angel Gabriel.
Please provide that quotation.
Brett,
Here's St. Augustine on the "conceptio per aurem": "God spoke through the angel, and impregnated the Virgin through the ear."
Luther put it this way: "Where does it (the virgin birth) come from? The angel Gabriel brings the word: `Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, etc.' With these words Christ comes not only into her heart, but also into her womb, as she hears, grasps, and believes it. No one can say otherwise, than that the power comes through the Word." (Luther's Works 36:341)
WELS UOJ-er who has fallen into the error of trusting works-righteous Church Growth methods over the Means
OK, so the guy is substituting one error for another. That is fair enough.
LPC
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