“A lot of people who are religious, I think they get lost. They go to church just to go to church. I'm not trying to disrespect them, but for me, I focus more on praying and talking to him," Bieber says. "I don't have to go to church."
A priest, a rabbi and an ELCA pastor all go hunting together one weekend. After several hours of seeing nothing, the three take a breather and sit down next to each other on a fallen tree trunk.
Unbeknownst to them, a big black grizzly was lurking right behind them in the brush. At just the right time, the bear attacks all three of the men at once. He mauls them dead and eats each of them, right down to the bone.
The very next day, the bear had an ecumenical movement....
I can understand the US media hating Tebow, for them, he is just too showy of his faith and that makes them uncomfortable.
What is amazing is that I find majority of Lutheran bloggers hate him too. It seems they hate anyone except an anti-nomian. Tebow should have just done cartwheels each time he scores or may be run to wife and kiss her or better yet run to a guy and kiss him, then may be they won't hate him too much.
Tebow would not take such flack if instead of kneeling down to pray each time he scored, he puts his pants down and showed his white hide to the camera for all the world to see. I am very sure no ridicule will come upon him.
A blogger reported that both Tebow and Wuerfel were sons of former Lutheran chaplains. Tebow is not Lutheran today but I will grant him his right to say what he wanted to say as an outworking of his Christianity as he interprets it. He is young, zealous, pretty soon with much experience and age he will be disillusioned and he will for sure would not be as outlandish with his Christianity as he is today.
It is really the sign of the times when what is good is being trashed as evil and what is evil is being heiled as good.
I just listened to Issues Etc' take on Tebow and frankly the negativism of Wilkin and his Lutheran listeners, the pooh poohing of Tebow, the contempt and put downs sickens me.
It shows me how Lutheranism there does suffer from reverse triumphalism. Reverse triumphalism is something we talk about here. Reverse triumphalism hides behind the theology of the cross but in actuality it is taking pride of one's perceived simplicity and humility. Think about it for a moment.
I blame Walther for that and his influence must be exorcised from Lutherans there.
I respect his individuality. He came to my attention because of the pro-life commercial that was banned without airing, even though it was subtle (unlike all the pro-abortion propaganda we hear daily).
I think a lot of hatred comes from that because America has a collective guilt for massive abortion numbers when one is too many. And the churches are either wildly for abortion or silent partners with such entities as ELCA.
The football critics really made me laugh because they ranked LSU number one and said Tebow did not belong in NFL football. I watched the LSU game just for laughs.
Don't be so quick to jump on the bandwagon concerning Tebow, Lito...I get what you are saying....so don't get me wrong. But there is something about this Tebow fellow and the way our US media is running with it. I believe something is forthcoming that will set the Evangelical "Christian" world on its collective ear...you heard it first here on Ichabod...there are some Lutherans here in the USA that get Revelation. I will have to shuffle on over and hear that program. Do you have a link per say?
I am certain there is something heterodox about his evangelicalism, I have been there and done that. It is not likely that I will go gaga on being evangelical again if that is what you mean by ecumenism.
Where I am at is simply respecting how he wants to express Christianity and kneeling down to pray after a good score is fair enough, to see someone pray to God and mention Jesus is a good thing.
I can not judge motives I leave that to God. Tebow could be play acting but he was not the first one who has done this sort of thing in football, there were others earlier than him.
I am sure the media would have a good time lampooning Tebow when he gets caught in some moral failure sometime in the future.
Here is the link http://issuesetc.org/2011/12/14/tim-tebow-christianity-and-football-12142011/
I see reverse triumphalism in the discussion there and the criticism, put downs and the like on Tebow is hypocritical and shameful.
The man is just 25 years old, he hasn't gotten his Christianity right, he still needs to eat lots of potatoes, but the judgemental way they do it there on Tebow is something I find shocking and just unfair.
Football is what he does best and he even says it is his platform, that is where he can share what he believes, he is not a preacher neither is he theologically trained.
See John 7:24.
The credibility of Wilkin as a fair broadcaster has become low on my meter now for some years anyway. It was not that way for me when I started in Lutheranism but now I go there to listen and marvel at Waltherian bigotry and I never fail to be disappointed.
He is not a Lutheran but and Evangelical QB so your criticism does not apply.
His actions in TV and in the field is his way of carrying out Matthew 10:32. As and ex-Evangelical myself I believe this is what is happening in his conscience.
Perhaps if folks understand how this verse is playing up in him, they might be a bit gracious to this young man.
But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
The problem with Tebow-like public displays of prayer by athletes - no matter what denomination - is that when those athletes falter and fail - and they always do - the world concludes God must not be listening or that he's punishing or some other such reward/punishment motif.
That is true, AC, but God prevents unbelievers from seeing the blessings of the lives of believers. The unbelievers always heap scorn on the Christian faith, without provocation, just as the lax and apostate pour out their wrath on the orthodox at every opportunity.
Can you be honest, when you are in a restaurant, do you ever pray over your meal before you consume it?
Would you find anyone praying over his meal in a restaurant violating Matt 6:6?
You said is that when those athletes falter and fail - and they always do - the world concludes God must not be listening or that he's punishing or some other such reward/punishment motif
Tebow in one of his interview, said he has not gotten it all right.
Blasphemers do not care if a celebrity Christian fails or not, the point for them is that they want to see a **Christian fail** even if that person might be a colleague or a neighbor because that is just one more argument to say Christians are fakes and self-justify their unbelief.
Scripture says the problem is not that, rather the problem is that the wicked heart suppresses the truth of God. Lk 16:31.
Further, blasphemers require moral uprightness from Christians, but they do not REQUIRE IT in themselves.
Now I invite you to listen to Wilkin's last comments on that mp3 link I gave. Listen how he puts down Tebow because Tebow failed to mention the cross, that is in minute 30:19. Wilkin's judgmental attitude is unfair because Tebow is not a preacher and Lord knows what time opportunity he has during his interviews to say this.
I was an Roman up until aged 23, and Romanists will blabber to you that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins - but do they believe that it was for them and that was it? No. Because though they confess it with their lips, their hands have been taught to work for their salvation.
I have more gentleness for Tebow than for the glib, triumphalistic false humility and Waltherian self-righteous bigotry of Wilkin and his listeners. They can see the speck in Tebow's eyes but could not see the plank in theirs.
Tebow most likely is working on Mk 8:38, the poor young man needs compassion rather than condemnation from Lutherans.
OK LPC, I'll cut Tebow some slack. I'm 85% in support of what he's doing.
Re: "Can you be honest, when you are in a restaurant, do you ever pray over your meal before you consume it?"
Answer: Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I make the sign of the cross, sometimes I fold my hands and bow my head. But I never kneel on the floor beside the table so that I'm sure everyone can see.
We need an exact comparison though. The Packers (blessed be their name) leap into the stands for every touchdown.
Tebow is modest in his response, and he is not the first to do something like that. I recall other players crossing themselves after a touchdown or making a similar gesture.
That is my point, Pastor Jackson...many others have gone before Tebow...why all the attention to Tebow??? Aaron Rodgers professes his Christianity...why isn't he 'out there' in the media like Tebow?
Like I said...Tebow is a pawn...not for the weak in heart:
I listened to the commentary of Pastor Todd Wilkens that you referenced, Lito. I have to disagree with you...because the 'Christianity' that Tebow is selling is ambiguous! There is nothing in his 'message' that even hints at the Means of Grace as we believe as Lutherans!
His mantra is works based as amplified in the media...
You have to realize that anything hyped in the media these days needs to be tested with the intensity of the Bereans...America was not founded on Christian principles as we have been lead to believe...this 'Tebowism' follows a long line of works righteousness...that started with the Freemasons...
See my comment to AC V @ 6:41 pm, 25 year old man is just a boy to me, Apolos in Acts was that way. I admitted he certainly has heterodox thinking since he is evangelical but Wilken and his Waltherian self righteous bigotry won't fool me anymore. See the philosophy of St Paul in Phil 1:18 about preaching Christ and how Wilken is a biased hater of Tebow in reality. His facade of objectivity does not fool me.
I won't go to Tebow's church if that is what you fear, however the question why him is now irrelevant. If it were someone else doing the kneeling and praying we will still be having this discussion.
It just amazes me why so much hatred for this boy, even from Lutheran Christians, is he a pastor preaching false doctrine? An elder of his church espousing heresies? Or just a young slightly misguided zealous young man who is still figuring things out?
Correct, no one in his right mind would ever admit to hating anyone, that would be too obvious, wouldn't it? There is a big difference between hating a doctrine versus disagreeing with a doctrine. I absolutely disagree with Evangelicalism. I am a bit more cautious with that word "hate", because doctrine is not something floating in the air but it lives in people.
Notice how Wilken complained Tebow did not mention the cross. Well, Wilken a true Waltherian, skips the Law then goes straight to complaining Tebow failed to mention Jesus' death at the Cross. Even Wilken misses Lutheranism. Does he not know that before you preach the Cross you must first preach the Law? The Gospel has nothing to stand on without the Law being there in the first place, there is no logic to the Cross without the Law being violated, it is what makes the Cross sensible.
In Wilken's criticism of Tebow, he skips this, a true UOJer indeed. Listen to it again. If Wilken were really being helpful to his listeners, he should say Tebow should preach both Law and Gospel each time Tebow gets on camera. He didn't, he was just being negative. Wilken did not criticise Evangelicalism in that program, he criticised the person of Tebow.
Maybe I am just biased, I have sympathy for Tebow, he was born in the Philippines and he partly grew up there.
In that country, show of spirituality is not something people get up and down with a huff, and public prayer is not something they get their nerves boiled up. Maybe he thought the tolerance of Filipinos is also present in USA. He is dumb wrong.
There is one athlete who does praying a lot right there in the USA each time he fights a boxing match, that is, Manny Paquiao. Both before the match and after the match, Manny kneels, makes the sign of the cross, mumbles then gets up. Then when he wins, he does it again.
Yet no one hates him, no criticism ever comes up for his praying in public. Is it because he is Roman and not Evangelical? So it is ok for a Roman to pray in public but not for an Evangelical?
Jesus says, judge righteous judgment and the judgment on Tebow by Lutheran Christians I think is unfair. I am glad there are a few who do not share Wilken's one sidedness.
I am glad Tebow does not listen to Wilken's program and I pray he does not stumble in his Christianity due to the criticism he receives from Lutherans.
If I recall, Jesus has dire judgements for those who causes these young believers in him to stumble.
I have sympathy for Tebow, I think I was like him...before I KNEW IT ALL.
Anyway I am done discussing this. We have disagreements, that is good a thing, it shows we are not cultic
After being convinced of the BoC, and prior to joining myself to fellow Lutherans, this is one of the strengths that I saw - their ability to self criticise and were fearless of the truth.
I was in a Lutheran list which is now dead, but there I saw brutal honest sincere debate which convinced me that Lutherans are not cultic. They won my respect. I really thought that was healthy and mature.
Ichabod is one example of that strength in Lutheranism.
No worries Joe but I have been uneasy now for sometime with Wilken's one-sided moderation in his program. His program is an exercise of preaching to the choir.
If he was doing balanced reporting, he should have Dr. Jackson in his program.
Just observe if he ever had an orthodox Lutheran criticising Walther etc, nada. It is cultic.
I stopped linking them, Lito, when one of them called justification by faith "Calvinism" and chuckled. As Socrates once said, "They know not that they know not."
Thanks for the link. In my research Tebow had some respectable acts like when he asked a cancer sufferer who happened to be a fan to be his date in one of NFL's gala dinner. Normally sporting celebrities parade around a gorgeous woman they snatched as their real trophy.
Righteousness is exalted but sin is a reproach to any people so says Proverbs.
36 comments:
This would make a UOJ theologian proud:
“A lot of people who are religious, I think they get lost. They go to church just to go to church. I'm not trying to disrespect them, but for me, I focus more on praying and talking to him," Bieber says. "I don't have to go to church."
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/01/10/are-young-religious-stars-like-justin-bieber-and-tim-tebow-making-christianity/?test=faces#ixzz1j49m8N8P
Biebs,
But outside of this Christian Church, where the Gospel is not, there is no forgiveness, as also there can be no holiness [sanctification].
- M. Luther, Large Catechism, Article III:56
A priest, a rabbi and an ELCA pastor all go hunting together one weekend. After several hours of seeing nothing, the three take a breather and sit down next to each other on a fallen tree trunk.
Unbeknownst to them, a big black grizzly was lurking right behind them in the brush. At just the right time, the bear attacks all three of the men at once. He mauls them dead and eats each of them, right down to the bone.
The very next day, the bear had an ecumenical movement....
I can understand the US media hating Tebow, for them, he is just too showy of his faith and that makes them uncomfortable.
What is amazing is that I find majority of Lutheran bloggers hate him too. It seems they hate anyone except an anti-nomian. Tebow should have just done cartwheels each time he scores or may be run to wife and kiss her or better yet run to a guy and kiss him, then may be they won't hate him too much.
LPC
This blogger is the only one I have come up with that is rather positive about Tebowing.
http://matthewcochran.net/blog/?p=207
LPC
Tebow is part of the plan of ecumenism and the coming two beasts...the media is involved and the NFL is entertainment after all...
Joe,
Tebow would not take such flack if instead of kneeling down to pray each time he scored, he puts his pants down and showed his white hide to the camera for all the world to see. I am very sure no ridicule will come upon him.
A blogger reported that both Tebow and Wuerfel were sons of former Lutheran chaplains. Tebow is not Lutheran today but I will grant him his right to say what he wanted to say as an outworking of his Christianity as he interprets it. He is young, zealous, pretty soon with much experience and age he will be disillusioned and he will for sure would not be as outlandish with his Christianity as he is today.
It is really the sign of the times when what is good is being trashed as evil and what is evil is being heiled as good.
I just listened to Issues Etc' take on Tebow and frankly the negativism of Wilkin and his Lutheran listeners, the pooh poohing of Tebow, the contempt and put downs sickens me.
It shows me how Lutheranism there does suffer from reverse triumphalism. Reverse triumphalism is something we talk about here. Reverse triumphalism hides behind the theology of the cross but in actuality it is taking pride of one's perceived simplicity and humility. Think about it for a moment.
I blame Walther for that and his influence must be exorcised from Lutherans there.
Just my opinion,
LPC
I respect his individuality. He came to my attention because of the pro-life commercial that was banned without airing, even though it was subtle (unlike all the pro-abortion propaganda we hear daily).
I think a lot of hatred comes from that because America has a collective guilt for massive abortion numbers when one is too many. And the churches are either wildly for abortion or silent partners with such entities as ELCA.
The football critics really made me laugh because they ranked LSU number one and said Tebow did not belong in NFL football. I watched the LSU game just for laughs.
Don't be so quick to jump on the bandwagon concerning Tebow, Lito...I get what you are saying....so don't get me wrong. But there is something about this Tebow fellow and the way our US media is running with it. I believe something is forthcoming that will set the Evangelical "Christian" world on its collective ear...you heard it first here on Ichabod...there are some Lutherans here in the USA that get Revelation. I will have to shuffle on over and hear that program. Do you have a link per say?
Joe,
I am certain there is something heterodox about his evangelicalism, I have been there and done that. It is not likely that I will go gaga on being evangelical again if that is what you mean by ecumenism.
Where I am at is simply respecting how he wants to express Christianity and kneeling down to pray after a good score is fair enough, to see someone pray to God and mention Jesus is a good thing.
I can not judge motives I leave that to God. Tebow could be play acting but he was not the first one who has done this sort of thing in football, there were others earlier than him.
I am sure the media would have a good time lampooning Tebow when he gets caught in some moral failure sometime in the future.
Here is the link
http://issuesetc.org/2011/12/14/tim-tebow-christianity-and-football-12142011/
I see reverse triumphalism in the discussion there and the criticism, put downs and the like on Tebow is hypocritical and shameful.
The man is just 25 years old, he hasn't gotten his Christianity right, he still needs to eat lots of potatoes, but the judgemental way they do it there on Tebow is something I find shocking and just unfair.
Football is what he does best and he even says it is his platform, that is where he can share what he believes, he is not a preacher neither is he theologically trained.
See John 7:24.
The credibility of Wilkin as a fair broadcaster has become low on my meter now for some years anyway. It was not that way for me when I started in Lutheranism but now I go there to listen and marvel at Waltherian bigotry and I never fail to be disappointed.
LPC.
LPC said: "...an outworking of his Christianity as he interprets it."
A Lutheran quarterback would point to heaven after each time he's sacked as well as each time he throws a touchdown.
He is not a Lutheran but and Evangelical QB so your criticism does not apply.
His actions in TV and in the field is his way of carrying out Matthew 10:32. As and ex-Evangelical myself I believe this is what is happening in his conscience.
Perhaps if folks understand how this verse is playing up in him, they might be a bit gracious to this young man.
LPC
How does Matthew 6:6 play into this discussion?
But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
The problem with Tebow-like public displays of prayer by athletes - no matter what denomination - is that when those athletes falter and fail - and they always do - the world concludes God must not be listening or that he's punishing or some other such reward/punishment motif.
That is true, AC, but God prevents unbelievers from seeing the blessings of the lives of believers. The unbelievers always heap scorn on the Christian faith, without provocation, just as the lax and apostate pour out their wrath on the orthodox at every opportunity.
AC,
Can you be honest, when you are in a restaurant, do you ever pray over your meal before you consume it?
Would you find anyone praying over his meal in a restaurant violating Matt 6:6?
You said is that when those athletes falter and fail - and they always do - the world concludes God must not be listening or that he's punishing or some other such reward/punishment motif
Tebow in one of his interview, said he has not gotten it all right.
Blasphemers do not care if a celebrity Christian fails or not, the point for them is that they want to see a **Christian fail** even if that person might be a colleague or a neighbor because that is just one more argument to say Christians are fakes and self-justify their unbelief.
Scripture says the problem is not that, rather the problem is that the wicked heart suppresses the truth of God. Lk 16:31.
Further, blasphemers require moral uprightness from Christians, but they do not REQUIRE IT in themselves.
Now I invite you to listen to Wilkin's last comments on that mp3 link I gave. Listen how he puts down Tebow because Tebow failed to mention the cross, that is in minute 30:19. Wilkin's judgmental attitude is unfair because Tebow is not a preacher and Lord knows what time opportunity he has during his interviews to say this.
I was an Roman up until aged 23, and Romanists will blabber to you that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins - but do they believe that it was for them and that was it? No. Because though they confess it with their lips, their hands have been taught to work for their salvation.
I have more gentleness for Tebow than for the glib, triumphalistic false humility and Waltherian self-righteous bigotry of Wilkin and his listeners. They can see the speck in Tebow's eyes but could not see the plank in theirs.
Tebow most likely is working on Mk 8:38, the poor young man needs compassion rather than condemnation from Lutherans.
LPC
OK LPC, I'll cut Tebow some slack. I'm 85% in support of what he's doing.
Re: "Can you be honest, when you are in a restaurant, do you ever pray over your meal before you consume it?"
Answer: Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I make the sign of the cross, sometimes I fold my hands and bow my head. But I never kneel on the floor beside the table so that I'm sure everyone can see.
We need an exact comparison though. The Packers (blessed be their name) leap into the stands for every touchdown.
Tebow is modest in his response, and he is not the first to do something like that. I recall other players crossing themselves after a touchdown or making a similar gesture.
That is my point, Pastor Jackson...many others have gone before Tebow...why all the attention to Tebow??? Aaron Rodgers professes his Christianity...why isn't he 'out there' in the media like Tebow?
Like I said...Tebow is a pawn...not for the weak in heart:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qox0pHxxRkE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEmStZeXPe4&feature=related
Just sayin'...
Good question. This post has 18 comments and counting.
I listened to the commentary of Pastor Todd Wilkens that you referenced, Lito. I have to disagree with you...because the 'Christianity' that Tebow is selling is ambiguous! There is nothing in his 'message' that even hints at the Means of Grace as we believe as Lutherans!
His mantra is works based as amplified in the media...
You have to realize that anything hyped in the media these days needs to be tested with the intensity of the Bereans...America was not founded on Christian principles as we have been lead to believe...this 'Tebowism' follows a long line of works righteousness...that started with the Freemasons...
Joe,
See my comment to AC V @ 6:41 pm, 25 year old man is just a boy to me, Apolos in Acts was that way. I admitted he certainly has heterodox thinking since he is evangelical but Wilken and his Waltherian self righteous bigotry won't fool me anymore. See the philosophy of St Paul in Phil 1:18 about preaching Christ and how Wilken is a biased hater of Tebow in reality. His facade of objectivity does not fool me.
I won't go to Tebow's church if that is what you fear, however the question why him is now irrelevant. If it were someone else doing the kneeling and praying we will still be having this discussion.
It just amazes me why so much hatred for this boy, even from Lutheran Christians, is he a pastor preaching false doctrine? An elder of his church espousing heresies? Or just a young slightly misguided zealous young man who is still figuring things out?
Set me up a debate with Wilken.
LPC
http://spectator.org/archives/2012/01/12/thank-you-god
That's a broad stroke, Lito. I don't think anyone would admit to hating Tebow...but we hate the doctrine.
Btw...I don't think true humility draws attention to itself...
Joe,
Correct, no one in his right mind would ever admit to hating anyone, that would be too obvious, wouldn't it? There is a big difference between hating a doctrine versus disagreeing with a doctrine. I absolutely disagree with Evangelicalism. I am a bit more cautious with that word "hate", because doctrine is not something floating in the air but it lives in people.
Notice how Wilken complained Tebow did not mention the cross. Well, Wilken a true Waltherian, skips the Law then goes straight to complaining Tebow failed to mention Jesus' death at the Cross. Even Wilken misses Lutheranism. Does he not know that before you preach the Cross you must first preach the Law? The Gospel has nothing to stand on without the Law being there in the first place, there is no logic to the Cross without the Law being violated, it is what makes the Cross sensible.
In Wilken's criticism of Tebow, he skips this, a true UOJer indeed. Listen to it again. If Wilken were really being helpful to his listeners, he should say Tebow should preach both Law and Gospel each time Tebow gets on camera. He didn't, he was just being negative. Wilken did not criticise Evangelicalism in that program, he criticised the person of Tebow.
Maybe I am just biased, I have sympathy for Tebow, he was born in the Philippines and he partly grew up there.
In that country, show of spirituality is not something people get up and down with a huff, and public prayer is not something they get their nerves boiled up. Maybe he thought the tolerance of Filipinos is also present in USA. He is dumb wrong.
There is one athlete who does praying a lot right there in the USA each time he fights a boxing match, that is, Manny Paquiao. Both before the match and after the match, Manny kneels, makes the sign of the cross, mumbles then gets up. Then when he wins, he does it again.
Yet no one hates him, no criticism ever comes up for his praying in public. Is it because he is Roman and not Evangelical? So it is ok for a Roman to pray in public but not for an Evangelical?
Jesus says, judge righteous judgment and the judgment on Tebow by Lutheran Christians I think is unfair. I am glad there are a few who do not share Wilken's one sidedness.
I am glad Tebow does not listen to Wilken's program and I pray he does not stumble in his Christianity due to the criticism he receives from Lutherans.
If I recall, Jesus has dire judgements for those who causes these young believers in him to stumble.
I have sympathy for Tebow, I think I was like him...before I KNEW IT ALL.
Anyway I am done discussing this. We have disagreements, that is good a thing, it shows we are not cultic
LPC
The ChurchMouse series on Pietism will be a good one for comments.
LPC said: "We have disagreements, that is good a thing, it shows we are not cultic"
What a refreshing comment, LPC. Thank you. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.
No sarcasm taken AC V. ;-)
After being convinced of the BoC, and prior to joining myself to fellow Lutherans, this is one of the strengths that I saw - their ability to self criticise and were fearless of the truth.
I was in a Lutheran list which is now dead, but there I saw brutal honest sincere debate which convinced me that Lutherans are not cultic. They won my respect. I really thought that was healthy and mature.
Ichabod is one example of that strength in Lutheranism.
LPC
Well said, Lito. I will go and listen again. I always respect your editorial. Thank you for fleshing out your position.
I pray all is well with you nad yours.
Joe
No worries Joe but I have been uneasy now for sometime with Wilken's one-sided moderation in his program. His program is an exercise of preaching to the choir.
If he was doing balanced reporting, he should have Dr. Jackson in his program.
Just observe if he ever had an orthodox Lutheran criticising Walther etc, nada. It is cultic.
LPC
I stopped linking them, Lito, when one of them called justification by faith "Calvinism" and chuckled. As Socrates once said, "They know not that they know not."
Lito - you can read this link:
http://www.reporterherald.com/news/loveland-local-news/ci_19708509
Joe - don't start on me.
I must be daft...start on what???
It's a story about how thoughtful Tebow is, so I thought you start on me about that - just kidding, Joe.
Excellent Tebow video, strictly about football:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMK9FKMG3Nc&feature=related
Dr. Greg/2138,
Thanks for the link. In my research Tebow had some respectable acts like when he asked a cancer sufferer who happened to be a fan to be his date in one of NFL's gala dinner. Normally sporting celebrities parade around a gorgeous woman they snatched as their real trophy.
Righteousness is exalted but sin is a reproach to any people so says Proverbs.
LPC
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