| Author | Message |
    
Joe Krohn (Jester)
Member
Username: Jester
Post Number: 194
Registered: 4-2011 |
| Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 6:05 pm: |    |
"Joe, an infant has the forgiveness of all sins when he/she trusts in Christ alone, that trust is Christ's faith worked by the Holy Spirit through the Word and water of baptism."
A sacrament is the forgiveness of sins, Brett. Go back and read your catechism. A sacrament isn't something that takes effect later. |
Dennis Belcher, Kantor (Boettden)
Senior Member
Username: Boettden
Post Number: 1688
Registered: 5-2004 |
| Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 6:32 pm: | |
Ephesians 2: 8-10 (NKJV) --
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
What does this mean?
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
My church website
About my family |
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer)
Member
Username: Brett_meyer
Post Number: 128
Registered: 1-2008 |
| Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 7:45 pm: | |
Mr. Prange, by this statement, “whether it's a person who has faith in Christ worked through the Word or the unbelieving newborn child” I was simply including anyone in ‘a person’: an unbelieving infant, child, boy, girl, man, woman or an unbaptized but believing infant, child, boy, girl, man, woman. I confess that the only person who is forgiven in baptism is the one who does not reject the faith which the Holy Spirit works through the Word and water.
The BOC quote you provide is directly at the validity and efficacy of baptism as a Sacrament, visible means and God’s Word, and is not speaking of the result, ie: faith in Christ alone and the forgiveness of sins. The Large Catechism confirms my contention when it states, 53] …Now, Baptism does not become invalid even though it be wrongly received or employed; since it is not bound (as stated) to our faith, but to the Word. 54] For even though a Jew should to-day come dishonestly and with evil purpose, and we should baptize him in all good faith, we must say that his baptism is nevertheless genuine. For here is the water together with the Word of God, even though he does not receive it as he should, just as those who unworthily go to the Sacrament receive the true Sacrament, even through they do not believe.” And note again in Holy Communion those taking Christ’s body and blood without faith in Christ alone – take it to their condemnation – not to their forgiveness of sins as the doctrine of UOJ teaches. Further the Large Catechism states, “57] Thus we do also in infant baptism. We bring the child in the conviction and hope that it believes, and we pray that God may grant it faith; but we do not baptize it upon that, but solely upon the command of God.” Again, baptism works faith, godly contrition over sin and faith in Christ alone. Through the Holy Spirit’s faith the child is washed clean of all sin, regenerated as a child of God and saved eternally.
The Small Catechism I quoted in a comment above, it states, “What does Baptism give or profit? Answer: It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.” Baptism works the forgivness of sins through faith in Christ which baptism creates and thereby regenerating the individual. The catechism goes on to state, “Which are such words and promises of God? Answer: Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Your contention would have it read, “, but he that believeth not shall be forgiven all sin and damned.” Again, the catechism goes on to state, “How can water do such great things? Answer: It is not the water indeed that does them,but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of Godin the water.” I believe my contention and confession stands against the doctrine of UOJ.
As I said before – Christ paid for the sin of unbelief. So when the doctrine of UOJ teaches that the whole world of unbelievers have been forgiven all sin, that forgiveness includes their sin of unbelief. So UOJ teaches unbelievers will go to Hell for eternity if they don’t believe that God forgave them for their unbelief. Please explain how UOJ can teach such a thing…
Joe, I believe my answer above corrects your misunderstanding. If you don’t find that convincing then I quote from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession: Article XIII. Of the Number and Use of the Sacraments. 1] In the Thirteenth Article the adversaries approve our statement that the Sacraments are not only marks of profession among men, as some imagine, but they are rather sings and testimonies of God’s will toward us, through which God moves hearts to believe. 3] If we call Sacraments rites which have the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to decide what are properly Sacraments.” Remember Joe, contrary to what you are teaching, Holy Communion taken by an unbeliever doesn’t impart forgiveness but rather God’s condemnation and wrath. That itself should be sufficient to show you your error.
Mr. Boettcher, what does it mean when placed beside these two verses:
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. |
Joe Krohn (Jester)
Member
Username: Jester
Post Number: 195
Registered: 4-2011 |
| Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 8:37 pm: | |
"Remember Joe, contrary to what you are teaching, Holy Communion taken by an unbeliever doesn’t impart forgiveness but rather God’s condemnation and wrath. That itself should be sufficient to show you your error."
No, Brett. The forgiveness of sins is still there as a gift. The unbeliever is condemned already for his rejection of the gift.
Back to Baptism...Baptism as a means of grace offers and gives us the forgiveness of sins. It works these blessings because of what Christ has earned; the forgiveness of all men's sins. These blessings are made our own by the Holy Ghost in Baptism. Faith can not be worked without the blessing of the forgiveness of sins. (Small Cat., Pg 197 & 198; copyright 1956, NPH...originally edited by Gausewitz.) |
Franz Linden (Franz_mann)
Senior Member
Username: Franz_mann
Post Number: 1796
Registered: 12-2004 |
| Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 8:49 pm: | |
Brett Meyer writes:
Remember Joe, contrary to what you are teaching, Holy Communion taken by an unbeliever doesn’t impart forgiveness but rather God’s condemnation and wrath.
There's a thoroughly Lutheran teaching - Christ instituted the Lord's Supper to impart God's condemnation and wrath.
Wow!
Did you read that, Pastor Jackson? Your pupil believes that the means of grace are for imparting wrath and condemnation. This is where your denial of universal objective justification has lead him.
Franz |
Dennis Belcher, Kantor (Boettden)
Senior Member
Username: Boettden
Post Number: 1689
Registered: 5-2004 |
| Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 8:50 pm: | |
You tell me. I asked you first.
I don't need you to blather over all of your faith passages. Most of us have heard quite enough from you. You have refused to engage in our questions, but rather, like Jackson your idol and all of his other minions, prefer to deflect the conversation to the FAITH, FAITH, FAITH, FAITH, FAITH passages.
I would venture to say that nobody on this thread disagrees with the two passages above. Nobody on this thread disagrees with the fact that nobody is saved without faith in Jesus Christ as his/her only Savior from sin. Our contention is with this: What is your salvation based upon? Is it based upon what Christ has done to take your sin away (John 1: 29) ... or is it based on your faith?
Did Jesus lie when He said on the cross, "It is finished?"
Did John lie when he said of Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world?"
Did Paul lie when he said, "By grace are ye saved ..." or should have he said "By faith are ye saved..."?
Did John lie when he spoke of Jesus, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world?"
No more deflection, Brett. Answer the plain and simple questions.
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
My church website
About my family |
Rev. Guillaume Williams (Revhardened)
Senior Member
Username: Revhardheaded
Post Number: 4790
Registered: 10-2004 |
| Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 9:22 pm: | |
By grace I’m saved, grace free and boundless;
My soul, believe and doubt it not.
Why stagger at this word of promise?
Has Scripture ever falsehood taught?
No; then this word must true remain;
By grace you too will life obtain.
By grace God’s Son, our only Savior,
Came down to earth to bear our sin.
Was it because of your own merit
That Jesus died your soul to win?
No, it was grace, and grace alone,
That brought him from his heavenly throne.
By grace! This ground of faith is certain;
As long as God is true, it stands.
What saints have penned by inspiration,
What in his word our God commands,
Our faith in what our God has done
Depends on grace - grace through his Son.
By grace to timid hearts that tremble,
In tribulation’s furnace tried,
By grace, in spite of fear and trouble,
The Father’s heart is open wide.
Where could I help and strength secure
If grace were not my anchor sure?
By grace! On this I’ll rest when dying;
In Jesus’ promise I rejoice;
For though I know my heart’s condition,
I also know my Savior’s voice.
My heart is glad, all grief has flown
Since I am saved by grace alone.
In what is my faith grounded?
The Rev. Guillaume J. S. Williams, Sr
Put Mass Back In Christmas! |
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer)
Member
Username: Brett_meyer
Post Number: 129
Registered: 1-2008 |
| Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 10:32 pm: | |
Joe teaches in harmony with the doctrine of UOJ, “Faith can not be worked without the blessing of the forgiveness of sins.”
No Joe. You remain in error. But you are faithful to the false gospel of UOJ.
Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesusseeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Mr. Linden, the Sacrament of Holy Communion distributes Christ’s body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. What it is for is the forgiveness of sins. What it imparts depends upon whether the one receiving it has faith in Christ alone or does not have faith. You teach that unbelievers who unworthily take Christ’s body and blood receive the forgiveness of sins and condemnation for the sin of partaking of Christ’s body and blood unworthily. Those who receive Christ’s body and blood with faith receive the forgiveness of sins. Those who receive Christ’s body and blood as unbelievers receive God’s condemnation and wrath. 1 Corinthians 11:29, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.” Same goes for the doctrine of UOJ which teaches God declares the unbelieving world forgiven and righteous in Christ. As LQ’s self-proclaimed grammatician you should know there’s a difference in meaning between the words, “distributes”, “for” and “imparts”.
Mr. Boettcher demands answers to the following questions:
Our contention is with this: What is your salvation based upon? Is it based upon what Christ has done to take your sin away (John 1: 29) ... or is it based on your faith?
Salvation is based upon faith in Christ alone. Salvation is not based upon a declaration of absolution that supposedly occurred without the Means of Grace, upon the unbelieving world.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Did Jesus lie when He said on the cross, "It is finished?"
No Jesus didn’t lie. The iniquity of us all was laid upon Christ, Christ paid for the whole world’s sins and God the Father accepted Christ’s payment as confirmed in His resurrection. Christ’s payment for the world’s sins was not the absolution of the unbelieving world.
Did John lie when he said of Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world?"
No, John did not lie. Christ paid for the world’s sins. Does that mean that Christ took them away in the sense that they were no longer on the world? Let’s consult the inspired book of John. John 8:24, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” Ephesians 2:1, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” Nope, clearly Christ did not remove them from the world but indeed He paid for them. Sins are only removed by the righteousness of Christ which is only through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone. Revelation 1:5, “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,”
Did Paul lie when he said, "By grace are ye saved ..." or should have he said "By faith are ye saved..."?
No, Paul didn’t lie. Actually Paul did say by faith are ye saved in Romans, “it is of faith, that it might be by grace;” The unbelieving world is not in God’s grace as UOJ would have everyone believe. The unbelieving world remains under God’s wrath and condemnation.
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Did John lie when he spoke of Jesus, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world?"
No, John didn’t lie. He is the Propitiation for the whole world if they have faith in Christ and thereby obtain Christ as Mediator. But Christ is only obtained as our Propitiation and Mediator through faith alone.
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; |
James Wobble (Wobble)
Member
Username: Wobble
Post Number: 144
Registered: 1-2013 |
| Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 11:11 pm: | |
Mr. Meyer, surely you should understand by now the concern that many of your opponents have expressed, namely, that your doctrine erroneously attributes to faith the activating catalyst of the gospel's efficacy. Surely in light of what has been articulated so far, you can see why it might be leveled against you that you deny the gospel, since it is clear that you deny the object of faith to be anextra nos event - a one-time, historical declaration of God when he raised Christ from the dead, upon which every utterance of the gospel is based and from which every absolution receives its validity. Surely, at least, you can see the concern that serves as the basis for such unanimous opposition against you. It is concern for the gospel (objectively complete, subjectively apprehended). Yet you have said nothing to allay such concern. You have only contradicted and prooftexted with passages that your opponents interpret otherwise according to their context. But you have not engaged the concern, which is roundly claimed to be an evangelical concern, hence our zeal.
What I cannot understand is your zeal. You say that our doctrine of justification is a false gospel(derisively labeled UOJ). How so? What is your concern? Certainly you do not accuse us of being universalists, do you? Are you concerned about a lack of emphasis on faith? Then say so, and make your case. Are there implications to what our churches teach that might undermine the glory of the gospel? Then explain. You have not shown at all how your concern is for the sake of defending the good news that the sinner is justified by grace alone through faith. What violence to the gospel does our gospel wreak?
You say it is a false gospel. What do you mean? What do you claim the object of saving faith to be? |
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer)
Member
Username: Brett_meyer
Post Number: 130
Registered: 1-2008 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 12:07 am: | |
Mr. Warble, I have confessed repeatedly that the object of Christ's faith, worked graciously by the Holy Spirit solely through the Means of Grace is Christ. (John 6:47, John 3:36, Mark 16:16, John 3:16, John 11:25) Christ is Extra Nos.
God didn't make a one-time, historical declaration that the whole unbelieving world is forgiven and righteous in Christ. Therefore the object of UOJ's faith is false which makes it a false gospel.
I understand that the gospel of UOJ is the antithesis of the Gospel of Justification solely by Faith In Christ Alone. I am not attempting to allay anyone's concern. I am contending for Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.
UOJ stands for Universal Objective Justification. It's not derisive.
I haven't accused you of being Universalists. If God's declaration that unbelievers are absolved of all sin is actually true, and that because of that divine and omnipotent declaration they really are absolved of all sin, and the forgiveness of sins resulted in eternal salvation - then yes, everyone confessing the gospel of UOJ would be a Universalist. But according to UOJ God can declare someone forgiven of all sin but they aren't until they believe they are - interesting religion.
I'm not concerned with a lack of emphasis on faith but I contend against UOJ's description of faith as an empty hand. Scripture and the BOC faithfully confirms that Christ's faith is righteousness, of which Christ is the Author and Finisher. UOJ perverts the faith of Scripture.
I've covered the implications in this discussion and many others - of which most are familiar. Please read through this discussion to see that I've addressed all of your questions.
Mr. Warble, would you explain this circular teaching of UOJ (I've requested an explanation above but as yet no one has addressed it): UOJ teaches that the whole world of unbelievers have been forgiven all sin, that forgiveness includes their sin of unbelief. So UOJ teaches unbelievers will go to Hell for eternity if they don’t believe that God forgave them for their unbelief. |
James Wobble (Wobble)
Member
Username: Wobble
Post Number: 145
Registered: 1-2013 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 1:04 am: | |
Mr. Meyer. You say the object of faith is Christ. What do you mean? How do the Means of Grace give us Christ? What does faith do with Christ? When God gives us faith through the gospel, does he say anything about this Christ whom he gives? Does he give some sort of indication as to the how he regards us on account of what Christ has done? Didn't Christ come to reveal the Father? What does he reveal? Does Christ not pray that we would believe in him, the only true God, and him whom he sent? Does he reveal a God who makes an offer or a God who has been propitiated. You say faith's object is Christ. But do we not place our faith in something that the Father says concerning sinners for whose sins Christ made satisfaction? Or do we place our faith in the power of faith to effect the gospel?
You ask me to explain what you call circular. You are confused. You have yet to reckon with the distinction between God speaking and faith apprehending. You make the former dependent on the latter. God damns those who refuse what God says. What does God say? What is it that the reprobate refuse? A deal? or Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world? |
James Wobble (Wobble)
Member
Username: Wobble
Post Number: 146
Registered: 1-2013 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 1:13 am: | |
God didn't make a one-time, historical declaration that the whole unbelieving world is forgiven and righteous in Christ.
Who are you quoting? To speak in terms of "in Christ" is usually to speak of faith (Romans 8:1, Galatians 3:28). There is a distinction between in Christo and propter Christum. You seem to be purposely misrepresenting what many on this thread have confessed. |
George Mueller (Mueller)
Senior Member
Username: Mueller
Post Number: 1076
Registered: 11-2012 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 7:44 am: | |
I am contending for Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. Brett Meyer
No, you are not. I showed you yesterday (more than once!) what the Lutheran Confessions teach about the object of faith. Let me cite from the Augsburg Confession once more, with emphasis added:
Our churches also teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works but are freely justified for Christ’s sake through faith when they believe that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight (Rom. 3-4).
I have bolded the object of faith. In response to this you falsely wrote that forgiveness is the result of faith and that we are forgiven on account of faith. But I showed you where we Lutherans teach that we are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins. I showed you that faith simply receives and you rejected that biblical and confessional teaching in favor of the false teaching that faith causes God to forgive us.
Notice, Brett, that I am not saying a word here about objective or subjective justification. I am sticking to the language of the Lutheran Confessions. You claim that you adhere to the doctrine of the Confessions. I have shown you that you do not. You reject the teaching of the Augsburg Confession as I have repeatedly shown. |
George Mueller (Mueller)
Senior Member
Username: Mueller
Post Number: 1077
Registered: 11-2012 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 8:02 am: | |
Brett, check this out for yourself. Read through the Bible wherever it speaks of justification. It talks about justification through faith. It does not talk about justification because of faith. The role of faith in justification is receptive. It receives. It doesn't cause something to be or become. What causes forgiveness? When you make faith the cause what does this do to the real cause, namely, the grace of God and the vicarious satisfaction of Jesus? |
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer)
Member
Username: Brett_meyer
Post Number: 131
Registered: 1-2008 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 9:33 am: | |
Mr. Warbel, I’ll answer a few of your many questions.
Mr. Meyer. You say the object of faith is Christ. What do you mean?
The faith that the Holy Spirit works solely through the Means of Grace trusts in Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life. The object of faith is not a supposed declaration from God that I was absolved of all sin before I was born. WELS UOJ theologian Jon Buchholz admitted this in his 2005 WELS Convention essay. The following three quotes are his, "God has forgiven the whole world. God has forgiven everyone his sins." This statement is absolutely true! This is the heart of the gospel, and it must be preached and taught as the foundation of our faith. But here’s where the caveat comes in: In Scripture, the word "forgive" is used almost exclusively in a personal, not a universal sense. The Bible doesn’t make the statement, "God has forgiven the world."
"God has forgiven all sins, but the unbeliever rejects God’s forgiveness." Again, this statement is true—and Luther employed similar terminology to press the point of Christ’s completed work of salvation.16 <b>But we must also recognize that Scripture doesn’t speak this way</b>."
"God has declared the entire world righteous." This statement is true, as we understand it to mean that God has rendered a verdict of "not-guilty" toward the entire world. It is also true—and must be taught—that the righteousness of Christ now stands in place of the world’s sin; this is the whole point of what Jesus did for us at Calvary. However, once again we’re wresting a term out of its usual context. In Scripture the term "righteous" usually refers to believers. "
What does faith do with Christ?
Faith apprehends Christ as Mediator and Propitiation. Mediator between sinful man and God’s wrath and condemnation over our sin. Propitiation for our sins because Christ paid the price God’s perfect justice required. A better question is what does Christ do with faith. Scripture reveals and the BOC confirms that faith is Christ’s righteousness by which a man dies to sin, washed of his crimson rags, is clothed in Christ’s righteousness, receives the inheritance as a child of God – brother of Christ, is regenerated becoming spiritually minded, is in God’s grace, is justified and eternally saved.
When God gives us faith through the gospel, does he say anything about this Christ whom he gives?
Yes, God declares in Scripture that Christ is God and man. That the iniquity of the whole world was laid upon Him and He made total and complete satisfaction for those sins. Not that Christ became guilty of those sins but that the sins were laid upon Him and He paid the penalty for those sins. His resurrection is proof that God the Father accepted Christ’s payment. All righteousness resides in Christ and never apart from Him. Therefore whoever believes on Christ receives His righteousness for the forgiveness of sins and eternal Life.
Does he give some sort of indication as to the how he regards us on account of what Christ has done?
Yes. When an individual is in Christ through faith God the Father regards him as His own child who then receives all that is Christ’s, righteousness, the forgiveness of sins and eternal Life. In summary - the inheritance that Christ has won. Outside of Christ through unbelief the world is not in Christ and therefore God the Father does not regard us as being in Christ and therefore the unbelieving world remains solely under God’s wrath and condemnation.
Does he reveal a God who makes an offer or a God who has been propitiated?
Since Christ is our propitiation through faith alone - Romans 3:25, “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” God is not propitiated except through faith which apprehends Christ as our Propitiation and Mediator.
Mr. Warbel, you make an issue of my statement that UOJ declares the whole unbelieving world to be righteous and absolved of all sin “in Christ”. If it’s not in Christ that this righteousness comes from – where is it? Are you trying to say that God declared the whole unbelieving world to be righteous and absolved of all sin outside of Christ? Where is that righteousness that God must see them in and with in order to declare them righteous? Men are only in Christ through faith alone. Therefore by faith alone is anyone accounted as righteous before God.
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 5:2, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:1, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with Godthrough our Lord Jesus Christ: |
Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair)
Intermediate Member
Username: Drboisclair
Post Number: 376
Registered: 1-2002 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 9:58 am: | |
Thankyou, Mr. Warble, for seeing the derisiveness and derogatory nature of the abbreviations started by Greg Jackson to belittle the scriptural doctrine of Objective Justification. Along with slandering Christian people on his "No Glory ..." (Ichabod) website he also blasphemes the true faith. It is for that reason that I avoid the silly abbreviation game.
As you can see as well, there is the constant use of Scripture and Confession quotations asserting Subjective Justification that are used to confute Objective Justification.
What all of this is purely and simply is a failure to properly distinguish Law and Gospel. By denying the scriptural doctrine of Objective Justification Greg Jackson and his disciples have limited the Gospel with the Law. That's why Jude 3 is alive and well here.
Brett Meyer has opened a door in his 12:52 a.m. post of yesterday, end of the second/third paragraph:
'UOJ’s faith clings to a false declaration – no wonder you teach an individual should not look to his faith for comfort – your faith is in a false object that never occurred and not in Christ alone. No wonder UOJists find no comfort from faith for they do not have the faith of the Holy Spirit who teaches in 2 Corinthians 13:5, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”'
Note that the point that he is making is that since, as he maintains, Objective Justification is a nonentity we who teach it would naturally avoid putting our faith in a faith in a nonentity. In this statement there is an implicit placing of faith in faith or a comfort in faith on the part of Brett. Those who agree with Brett, Greg Jackson, Rydecki, and, now, sadly, ELDoNA, locate the completion of our redemption, i.e. our Justification, within us. Faith loses its instrumental character and becomes the act that effects Justification.
What an irony in all of this! Brett/Jackson/Rydecki/ELDoNA bluster that their faith is in Christ, but their faith is really in their faith.
The conditional "Gospel" that they peddle is expressed in these words of Brett:
'I believe and confess in accord with Scripture and harmony with the Lutheran Confessions that God has promised to be reconciled to, absolve, justify, declare righteous, adopt as children and save eternally all those who by the gracious gift of faith trust in Christ alone.'
No, Brett, God has reconciled Himself to the world in Christ's completed work of 2000 years ago. The mission now is to have the Holy Spirit regenerate the unbelieving through the means of grace: "Be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 is the impregnable, mighty fortress that affirms BOTH facets of Justification: Objective and Subjective. All they can do is explain that Scripture and other Scriptures away. |
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer)
Member
Username: Brett_meyer
Post Number: 132
Registered: 1-2008 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 10:18 am: | |
BOC: 71] But when it is said that faith justifies, some perhaps understand it of the beginning, namely, that faith is the beginning of justification or preparation for justification, so that not faith itself is that through which we are accepted by God,
Apology of the Augsburg Confession, That Faith in Christ Justifies.
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php
Martin Luther’s quotes from his Commentary On Galatians
“In the sight of God, Abraham was a condemned sinner. That he was justified before God was not due to his own exertions, but due to his faith.” Verse 6
“The faith of the fathers in the Old Testament era, and our faith in the New Testament are one and the same faith in Christ Jesus, although times and conditions may differ.” Verse 6
“Are you surprised that reason thinks little of faith? Reason thinks it ludicrous that faith should be the foremost service any person can render unto God.” Verse 6
"The Scriptures ascribe no righteousness to Abraham except through faith." Verse 8
“Paul means to imply the contrast that all nations are accursed without faith in Christ.” Verse 9
“Paul goes on to prove from this quotation out of the Book of Deuteronomy that all men who are under the Law are under the sentence of sin, of the wrath of God, and of everlasting death.” Verse 10
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse. The curse of God is like a flood that swallows everything that is not of faith. To avoid the curse we must hold on to the promise of the blessing in Christ.” Verse10
“I cannot tell you in words how criminal it is to seek righteousness before God without faith in Christ” Verse 10
“In observing the Law for the purpose of obtaining righteousness without faith in Christ these law workers go smack against the Law and against God. They deny the righteousness of God, His mercy, and His promises. They deny Christ and all His benefits.” Verse 10
“By faith Christ changes places with us. He gets our sins, we get His holiness.” Verse 13
“By faith alone can we become righteous, for faith invests us with the sinlessness of Christ.” Verse 13
12. As before said, they regard faith of slight importance; for they do not understand that it is our sole justifier. To accept as true the record of Christ--this they call faith. The devils have the same sort of faith, but it does not make them godly. Such belief is not Christian faith; no, it is rather deception.
15. ...You see how they make faith of no value to themselves, and so must regard as heresy all doctrine based upon it. Thus they do away with the whole Gospel. These are they who deny the Christian faith and exterminate it from the world. Paul prophesied concerning them when he said (1 Tim 4, 1): "In later times some shall fall away from the faith." The voice of faith is now silenced all over the world. Indeed, faith is condemned and banished as the worst heresy, and all who teach and endorse it are condemned with it. The Pope, the bishops, charitable institutions, cloisters, high schools, unanimously opposed it for nearly four hundred years, and simply drove the world violently into hell. Their conduct is the real persecution by Antichrist, in the last times.
22. Now, the Cain-like saints have not, as they themselves confess, the Christian faith which would assure them of being the children of God.
29. You cannot extricate yourself from unbelief, nor can the Law do it for you. All your works in intended fulfilment of the Law must remain works of the Law and powerless to justify in the sight of God, who regards as just only believing children.
37. Note, Paul everywhere teaches justification, not by works, but solely by faith; and not as a process, but instantaneous. The testament includes in itself everything--justification, salvation, the inheritance and great blessing. Through faith it is instantaneously enjoyed, not in part, but all. Truly is it plain, then, that faith alone affords such blessings of God, justification and salvation-- immediately and not in process as must be the case with works
74. But what is the process whereby Christ gives us such a spirit and redeems us from under the Law? The work is effected solely by faith. He who believes that Christ came to redeem us, and that he has accomplished it, is really redeemed. As he believes, so is it with him. Faith carries with it the child-making spirit. The apostle here explains by saying that Christ has redeemed us from under the Law that we might receive the adoption of sons. As before stated, all must be effected through faith. Now we have discussed the five points of the verse.
http://www.trinitylutheranms.org/MartinLuther/MLSe rmons/Galatians4_1_7.html |
Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair)
Intermediate Member
Username: Drboisclair
Post Number: 377
Registered: 1-2002 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 10:32 am: | |
Oh, and by the way, I appreciated what Daniel Gorman pointed out previously in faulting ELDoNA for not coming out and saying that they reject "This We Believe" (WELS) and "The Brief Statement" (LCMS) on the doctrine of Justification. Instead they make Francis Pieper their whipping boy.
Thank God, we are justified by grace (Objective) through faith (Subjective). |
D. Jerome Klotz (Jerome)
Member
Username: Jerome
Post Number: 157
Registered: 2-2013 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 10:34 am: | |
Mr. Meyer,
Read your Luther quote again:
"He who believes that Christ came to redeem us [subjective], AND THAT HE HAS ACCOMPLISHED IT [objective], is really redeemed."
Pax Christi,
Jerome
lawandpromise.blogspot.com |
Pr. Don Kirchner (Kirchner)
Senior Member
Username: Kirchner
Post Number: 3575
Registered: 11-2001 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 10:41 am: | |
As I said before – Christ paid for the sin of unbelief. So when the doctrine of UOJ teaches that the whole world of unbelievers have been forgiven all sin, that forgiveness includes their sin of unbelief. So UOJ teaches unbelievers will go to Hell for eternity if they don’t believe that God forgave them for their unbelief. Please explain how UOJ can teach such a thing…
Yes, Christ paid for the sin of unbelief too. Some reject that forgiveness, they reject the gift, and bring damnation upon themselves.
This really is basic stuff, Mr. Meyer. |
George Mueller (Mueller)
Senior Member
Username: Mueller
Post Number: 1078
Registered: 11-2012 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 11:08 am: | |
Brett, in your most recent citation from the Lutheran Confessions you quote the Apology that talks about the role of faith in justification. What preposition was used? Does it say that we are justified BECAUSE OF faith as you have been contending? Or does it way that we are justified THROUGH FAITH? Can you see the difference? |
Daniel Gorman (Heinrich)
Senior Member
Username: Heinrich
Post Number: 2056
Registered: 11-2004 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 11:10 am: | |
ELDONA Theses 18 and 20 go to the heart of the controversy. Does scripture record the forensic declaration(s):
"Scripture teaches that God has already declared
the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18]21; Rom. 4:25" LCMS Brief Statement
"We believe that God has justified all sinners, that is, he has declared them righteous for the sake of Christ." WELS This We Believe
The ELDONA Theses say that forensic declaration of the type(s) described in the Brief Statement and This We Believe cannot be found in scripture or in the writings of the fathers. Is OJ a pious opinion? The conclusion to the ELDONA theses states that OJ is contrary to scripture and the BOC. ELDONA should add another thesis explaining how OJ destroys the foundation, i.e., true knowledge of Christ and faith. |
Joe Krohn (Jester)
Member
Username: Jester
Post Number: 196
Registered: 4-2011 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 12:18 pm: | |
In order to believe something it needs to be there in the first place as we have all presented here.
I believe I have finally stomached enough of Brett Meyer's false witnessing and will leave with this:
"I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic* Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen."
"And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." |
Rev. Allan Eckert (Pastor_eckert)
Member
Username: Pastor_eckert
Post Number: 138
Registered: 8-2009 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 12:44 pm: | |
I'm coming to the discussion late and apologize in advance if this point has been made. Brett you wrote:
"I believe and confess in accord with Scripture and harmony with the Lutheran Confessions that God has promised to be reconciled to, absolve, justify, declare righteous, adopt as children and save eternally all those who by the gracious gift of faith trust in Christ alone."
Imagine a missionary taking that message to a place and people who have never heard of Christ.
How on earth can that be Good News since it specifically excludes the people to whom it is spoken since they do not trust in Christ alone? |
Joe Krohn (Jester)
Member
Username: Jester
Post Number: 197
Registered: 4-2011 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 12:56 pm: | |
"How on earth can that be Good News since it specifically excludes the people to whom it is spoken since they do not trust in Christ alone?"
What is worse is that he denies the blessing of the forgiveness of sins in Baptism. |
D. Jerome Klotz (Jerome)
Member
Username: Jerome
Post Number: 158
Registered: 2-2013 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 5:34 pm: | |
That Mr. Meyer denies the blessing of the forgiveness of sins in baptism is hardly surprising, since such a rejection follows necessarily from the denial of objective justification.
While Mr. Meyer has consistently argued that objective justification is "enthusiasm," i.e. a justification apart from the means of grace, it is actually himself who is the schwarmer.
The means of grace are only such as they flow from the wounded side of Christ, in which the sins of the whole world have been borne away and deleted, i.e. forgiven.
Without this objective reality of justification, the means of grace are undermined of their origin and content. The means of grace necessarily become empty husks to be filled with the content of our own self-incurved faith. What a "gospel"!
Not only does objective justification NOT militate against the means of grace, but the means of grace themselves presuppose objective justification as the sum and substance of what they are and give.
Those who would deny objective justification effectively resign themselves to the religion of Zwingli, i.e. they end up swallowing the Holy Spirit--feathers and all!
lawandpromise.blogspot.com |
Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair)
Intermediate Member
Username: Drboisclair
Post Number: 378
Registered: 1-2002 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 7:02 pm: | |
What is curious about the ELDoNA theses is that ELDoNA lock, stock, and barrel embraced the research of Paul A. Rydecki, who wasn't even a member of the diocese when he gave his paper. Yet, the theses wholeheartedly subscribe to his two translations of two works of Aegidius Hunnius, and his "weak" "Forensic Appeal" paper. They commend him and his work in the same way as the Formula of Concord endorsed works of Luther like his Large Confession on the Sacrament of the Altar.
Such reliance on a newcomer would be like the Roman Catholic Church allowing Richard John Neuhaus, who had been a Lutheran pastor and theologian who turned RC, to write the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Of course, ELDoNA appears to be big on Aegidius (Giles) Hunnius even though he is a theologian of the doctrine of Receptionism and intuitu fidei finalis in the Lutheran Church. In a way ELDoNA has gone the path of the Philippists in embracing a theologian, who followed Philipp Melanchthon in many ways--Receptionism being one. |
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer)
Member
Username: Brett_meyer
Post Number: 133
Registered: 1-2008 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 7:57 pm: | |
Mr. Klotz states, "Read your Luther quote again: "He who believes that Christ came to redeem us [subjective], AND THAT HE HAS ACCOMPLISHED IT [objective], is really redeemed."
The words used in this confession by Martin Luther show that there is a difference in the meaning behind redeem and redeemed. First of all, redemption is not synonymous with justification or reconciliation. Redemption is to pay for or buy back. The difference between the use of this word in Luther’s statement is delineated by the use of ‘really’ which indicates something different is meant by the first use. The first use of redeem is to pay for our sins – the whole world’s sins. The second is tied to “He who believes”, those who have faith in Christ are “really redeemed”, bought back from under the Law to be under Grace – those who are Christians through faith in Christ. Considering the rest of Luther’s quotes – which you ignored – “Paul means to imply the contrast that all nations are accursed without faith in Christ.” and “I can not tell you in words how criminal it is to seek righteousness before God without faith in Christ.” These quotes are a testament against UOJ and the attempt to pervert Luther’s statement is equal to UOJ’s perversion of his statements regarding the Keys.
The Christian Book of Concord confirms my confession when it states, “142] But righteousness is faith in the heart. Moreover, sins are redeemed by repentance, i.e., the obligation or guilt is removed, because God forgives those who repent, as it is written in Ezek. 18:21-22. Nor are we to infer from this that He forgives on account of works that follow, on account of alms; but on account of his promiseHe forgives those who apprehend His promise. Neither do any apprehend His promise, except those who truly believe, and by faith overcome sin and death.” BOC, Article III: Of Love and the Fulfilling of the Law.
Joe Krohn states, “In order to believe something it needs to be there in the first place as we have all presented here. “
Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit’s faith worked graciously through the Means of Grace has Christ as it’s object – in which it trusts fully. Christ is Extra Nos. Christ is there to be believed in.
UOJ teaches that faith can only be created by the declaration that the unbeliever was forgiven before he believed – which declaration must have already been made so that faith could have something to trust in fully. So UOJ manufactures the declaration in a Galaxy of verses that teach Justification solely by faith alone in order to justify it’s validity. Only God didn’t make the declaration – as Buchholz admitted – and so UOJ continues it’s circular rationalism because it refuses to establish Christ as it’s object. UOJ then goes on to vehemently eviscerate the Holy Spirit’s faith, Christ’s righteousness, as Subjective Justification and condemn me for promoting Justiifcation solely by faith alone – when all along I’ve been promoting only objective Justification. The correct type of OJ which is that Justification is all God’s work. From Christ’s atonement to His faith that He works in those He has called to believe. It’s all Objective – yet it is not at all the false gospel of Universal Objective Justification.
You all accuse me of denying the blessing of the forgiveness of sins in Baptism.
I’ve done no such thing. I clearly stated that those who are baptized and do not reject the faith of the Holy Spirit which is worked in Baptism for the forgiveness of sins are forgiven. Those who reject the faith of the Holy Spirit which is worked in Baptism are not forgiven. You condemn me because UOJ teaches the whole unbelieving world has been absolved of all sin, declared forgiven of all sins and righteous. If Baptism bestows the forgiveness of sins regardless if the individual believes in Christ then faith is bestowed as well regardless of the rejection of the individual. You can’t have one thing created regardless of the unbelief of the one being baptized and not the other. Unless….unless you are teaching that Baptism is not for the creation of faith and is solely to bestow forgiveness of sins. But then that would be quite redundant in the doctrine of UOJ since the unbeliever was already declared forgiven before they were ever baptized. Quite the religion you guys have in the false gospel of UOJ.
Mr. Klotz states that the “sins of the whole world have been borne away and deleted, i.e. forgiven.”
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Nope, you clearly hold to a false teaching Mr. Klotz. |
Jerome Klotz (Jerome)
Member
Username: Jerome
Post Number: 159
Registered: 2-2013 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 8:57 pm: | |
Mr. Meyer,
Luther states quite clearly that our being "really redeemed" by faith is grounded in the fact that Christ "has accomplished it" already. You are just playing with words.
With reference to your citing Jn. 8:24, do you not believe that Christ bore the sins of the world in his very body and defeated them there? Christ says plainly that it is UNBELIEF that damns. Unbelief in what? Unbelief that Jesus Christ is the One sent from the Father, who has come to die for and to take away the sins of the world. And to say that the sins of the world are taken away is the same thing as saying that they are forgiven.
You say: "...unless you are teaching that Baptism is not for the creation of faith and is solely to bestow forgiveness of sins." How else is the objective reality of the forgiveness of sins received other than through the subjective creation of faith by the means the grace? Notice that faith is created by the prior, objective reality of the forgiveness of sins communicated through the means of grace, and so this faith is simply the passive recipient of God's favor. You, on the other hand, would have faith, not as that which is created through the means of grace, but as that which creates God's favor!
You say that faith creates grace. This is false.
Lutherans say that faith receives grace. This is most certainly true.
You say, "Those who are baptized and do not reject the faith of the Holy Spirit which is worked in Baptism for the forgiveness of sins are forgiven. Those who reject the faith of the Holy Spirit which is worked in Baptism are not forgiven."
Do you hear yourself? You are saying that justification is accepting the faith that the Holy Spirit works in us through baptism. Or, in other words, justification is faith in faith!
Justification is not accepting the faith that the Holy Spirit works in us through baptism. Justification is faith (subjective) in the promise that, in Christ, God has forgiven all my sins through his bloody cross and passion (objective).
Cling to the cross, Mr. Meyer. Not your innards.
lawandpromise.blogspot.com |
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer)
Member
Username: Brett_meyer
Post Number: 134
Registered: 1-2008 |
| Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 10:27 pm: | |
Mr. Klotz, I disagree with everything you have written. Including:
You say that faith creates grace.
Nope, I didn't say that. I confirmed the Scriptural truth that the forgiveness of sins is by faith so that it might be by grace.
Do you hear yourself? You are saying that justification is accepting the faith that the Holy Spirit works in us through baptism. Or, in other words, justification is faith in faith!
Nope, didn't say that. I have confessed that God justifies only those who receive the gift of faith in Christ alone. Those believing in Christ receive His Righteousness for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life. The faith that the Holy Spirit works through the Means of Grace, God's Word and Baptism, and strengthens through Holy Communion is Christ's righteousness which comforts and sustains because it trusts in Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and salvation. The Holy Spirit works through the Word and water in Baptism to create the faith that trusts in Christ alone.
The Christian Book of Concord condemns the false gospel of UOJ:
"because those who are accounted righteous before God do not live in mortal sin."
BOC: What Is Justifying Faith?
The whole unbelieving world lives in mortal sin therefore they are not accounted righteous by God.
UOJ is a rationalistic religion based on a declaration that God never made. |
|
